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post #1 of 50 Old 02-22-2015, 03:40 PM Thread Starter
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Timing question for the guru's

Ok fellas,

So i am in the middle of my timing/gears replacement. Before I removed the pulley i rotated it clockwise to get to top dead center in cylinder #1 ( this is for the 2.5L btw)

First question: TO ensure it is not on the exhaust cycle, my rotor should be pointing/in line with the #1 location at the distributor - correct? I could always pull out the #1 spark plug to make sure the piston is at the top of its cycle to ensure top dead center but thought i would throw it out there to see if someone could provide me a reasonably quicker answer while I am on my lunch break.

2nd Q: if the rotor is pointing to the #1 location on the distributor cap does this always mean it should be on combustion stroke?

3rd Q: If i AM indeed at top dead center, (barring if my timing was extremely out of whack - and it looks like it was cuz the heep was running rough) should the alignment dots on the sprocket line up each each other (face each other)?

As it stands, my rotor is aligned with the #1 location on the distributor, and my alignment dots on the sprockets (cam = 10 o clock, crank = 8 o'clock). In this case, before i get back into it after some food, how do i rotate the engine to ensure the dots line up? Simply pop the pulley back on and rotate it manually until the dots on the sprockets line up? SHould this normally end up with the rotor pointing at the #1 location at the distributor?

SOrry for the loaded post guys - new at this. Just like knowing exactly what i should be looking for. Here are some pics of where the dots are lining up with the rotor facing #1 location at the distributor. ANy and all help is appreciated. (and yeh, sorry one photo is upside down. In the first photo you can see that the dot on the larger gear is in between 9 and 10o'clock, i assure you though you cannot see it because of the collar in the way - the smaller gear is roughly pointing around 8'oclock).

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post #2 of 50 Old 02-22-2015, 05:31 PM Thread Starter
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Allow myself to intervene and update as I know how I (yet again) royally eff'd up.)

I followed an ill-advised post about this job.

Basically, where i went wrong is (that is to say, after the initial eff up by starting this job with a royal hangover) is i took the belt off prematurely. I rotated the harmonic balancer with the belt off, hence i basically just royally eff'd up my timing.

New question, and i need the help badly - HOW do i go about getting my timing to where she was before this royal foul up? I gave it quite a few (perhaps 3 full rotations with the belt off) EFF ME. Live and learn as always i suppose. WIth the chain turning the larger sprocket, i figure it can't be that bad.... maybe i am just being my paranoid self (especially after a night of Jim Beam). DOes it matter if i turn the harmonic balancer without the belt on? say for water pump pulley, etc? SHould I just put the cover back on, harmonic balancer back on and line up the notch on the H.B with the 0 mark on the cover and see where I'm at?

Someone PLEASE help me out here.

Stop whining about the 'ride' - If your YJ ain't wrangling your soul free, then might I suggest you buy a stationwagon... at least you can fit all your bull**** in the back.
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post #3 of 50 Old 02-22-2015, 05:49 PM
ionakana
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I'm not sure I follow, what belt did you take off, the serpentine belt has nothing to do with anything but accessories. The crank and cam are connected by the timing chain.

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post #4 of 50 Old 02-22-2015, 06:07 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ionakana View Post
I'm not sure I follow, what belt did you take off, the serpentine belt has nothing to do with anything but accessories. The crank and cam are connected by the timing chain.
yeah, like i said i am just a paranoid guy and the after effects of alcohol don't help. i had a smoke and thought about it logically and calmed down. I just have brutal paranoia after doing any job on the heep - can't quite explain it. lol.

well, now that that is outta the way. How abouts do i go and get these dots on the gears to line up? will they eventually align if i just keep rotating the engine manually? At that thought, should the rotor line up with the #1 place on the distributor when the dots finally do line up?

really just new at this, and the threads ive been using don't really cover this detail. I may be overthinking it.... its a habit..
thanks

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post #5 of 50 Old 02-22-2015, 06:18 PM
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I'm not the guy to be talking to on this but I'm convinced my timing is a little off due to the distributor being installed maybe a tooth off. Going to tackle it when my mechanic friend has time to put it right should I fail. I want to tackle it first. I did find this article on replacing the distributor.

http://tomasz.korwel.net/2006/12/19/...s-40l-engines/

Other than that try a Haynes manual.

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post #6 of 50 Old 02-22-2015, 06:21 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ionakana View Post
I'm not the guy to be talking to on this but I'm convinced my timing is a little off due to the distributor being installed maybe a tooth off. Going to tackle it when my mechanic friend has time to put it right should I fail. I want to tackle it first. I did find this article on replacing the distributor.

http://tomasz.korwel.net/2006/12/19/...s-40l-engines/

Other than that try a Haynes manual.
thanks

Stop whining about the 'ride' - If your YJ ain't wrangling your soul free, then might I suggest you buy a stationwagon... at least you can fit all your bull**** in the back.
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post #7 of 50 Old 02-23-2015, 06:28 PM Thread Starter
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I have verified that the #1 piston is at the top of its travel, the dots on the gears are pointing at each other (the old gears which still need to be taken out)... yet as evidenced in the photo my rotor is pointing about 180* off. Whenever the dots align, the rotor is always 180* off.

How would I go about correcting this.

And yes, a Haynes manual will be ordered. But until then - you're all i got. Can anybody point me to a write up for the 2.5L or just give me layman's points (in steps) for what to do. I'm pretty capable if given direction.

PLEASE! Thanks

Stop whining about the 'ride' - If your YJ ain't wrangling your soul free, then might I suggest you buy a stationwagon... at least you can fit all your bull**** in the back.
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post #8 of 50 Old 02-23-2015, 06:28 PM
T800
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I don't know jack about the 2.5L, but here's some stuff from the Haynes manual.
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IMG_20150223_171137212_HDR.jpg   IMG_20150223_171556077.jpg   IMG_20150223_171606063_HDR.jpg  
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post #9 of 50 Old 02-23-2015, 06:49 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks a lot T800. This is helpful.

However, the chain and sprockets are terribly worn as you can see in the photos below. The chain is severely stretched.

FOr those of you who know where I am at... with my timing marks lined up, #1 piston at top of travel and my rotor pointing 180* off - this eludes me to think it's at the exhaust cycle. Hence, sticking to theory if i rotated my harmonic balancer one more full rotation, my rotor should be pointed at about the 4 o'clock position (#1 spark plug position on the distributor cap) with my #1 piston ideally at the top of travel - and hence TDC at the combustion cycle.

If i keep rotating the camshaft it seems the dots will never align when on the combustion cycle. Hence, from my understanding my timing is way off (its the original gears and chain - PO was a pig).

WHat should i do in this case?

Thanks in advance guys. Just want this figured out as my new timing set has arrived.
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Stop whining about the 'ride' - If your YJ ain't wrangling your soul free, then might I suggest you buy a stationwagon... at least you can fit all your bull**** in the back.
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~YJOTM JULY '19~
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post #10 of 50 Old 02-23-2015, 07:00 PM
T800
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I read your original post again and I was missing a few things.

You are trying to get everything lined up on #1 TDC/compression before you swap the timing set, correct?

Edit: After studying your pics more, I see your dilemma. All I can offer is this:
1. Sometimes there are multiple marks on a timing set that can confuse a person. I can't tell what's what in the pictures.
2. The dist was installed and wired 180 out. Again, can't tell in the pictures.

That set doesn't look "severely" stretched to me, but I'm not there. You should have seen what I pulled off my 4.2 - it was wearing thru the cover it had so much slack.

The best way to tell if you're on #1 compression stroke is to hold your finger over the #1 plug hole while you rotate the motor. You'll feel pressure when you get on the compression stroke.

Good luck.
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post #11 of 50 Old 02-23-2015, 08:03 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks again T800...

You are correct, i am attempting to get things aligned with the old worn set on - is this my problem? If so, what should i do at this point?

Referring to your number one observation.... the slack in the chain is terrible, its original and the motor has 250,000KM on her. The tensioner holds no tension and appears to be broken with the chain digging two clearly divots right in it. The chain guide also had to clear and distinct track marks from the chain. Just sitting alone, the chain droops in between the sprockets at the top. But yeah, enough of the past p.o.s po. The alignment dots are what they are. I do not have two many marks on the sprockets... one on the larger gear and one on the smaller gear. However, what i find incongruent is that the mark on the smaller gear is on the raised 'collar', and not near the teeth of the gear as most photos i have seen. Could it have been worn right out?

Regarding your #2 observation: WHat do you mean the distributor was wired 180* out? I am reading a good thread right now where forum user QUE89YJ is explaining distributor removal and installation and if need be i can resort to it and just start from scratch. However, i am sure all of these components on my jeep are straight from factory with little to NO work done under the hood.

Stop whining about the 'ride' - If your YJ ain't wrangling your soul free, then might I suggest you buy a stationwagon... at least you can fit all your bull**** in the back.
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~YJOTM JULY '19~
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post #12 of 50 Old 02-23-2015, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruinjeeper View Post
I have verified that the #1 piston is at the top of its travel, the dots on the gears are pointing at each other (the old gears which still need to be taken out)... yet as evidenced in the photo my rotor is pointing about 180* off. Whenever the dots align, the rotor is always 180* off.

How would I go about correcting this.

And yes, a Haynes manual will be ordered. But until then - you're all i got. Can anybody point me to a write up for the 2.5L or just give me layman's points (in steps) for what to do. I'm pretty capable if given direction.

PLEASE! Thanks
I actually had a similar thought/question/dilemma myself (and maybe I'm not the best person to answer this, as my jeep is still dead) BUT if I remember correctly through research is that, your rotor points at the #1 plug wire, when your Harmonic balancer notch is pointed at the 0 degree mark on the Timing Chain cover, and this does not directly correlate to the 2 lined up dots.

For more info check out my thread https://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f12/s...18/index3.html go to post #36, and look at Mike Romain's response. Then fast Forward to his response at #47 as well, and again #49, more explanation. All confusing, I know. trust me. I know.
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post #13 of 50 Old 02-23-2015, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
However, what i find incongruent is that the mark on the smaller gear is on the raised 'collar', and not near the teeth of the gear as most photos i have seen. Could it have been worn right out?
Should be out near the tooth as far as I know. Never can tell though ...

Quote:
Regarding your #2 observation: WHat do you mean the distributor was wired 180* out?
It's just a possibility, but if a guy installs a distributor 180 degrees off it'll run fine if you move the wires accordingly - what should be #4 becomes #1. Probably not the case but it's possible.

Your best bet is to find #1 TDC/compression as mentioned above. If that isn't doable for some reason I'd just pull the timing set and install the new one. The cam and crank are indexed so you can't put the gears on wrong. Put your gears on without the chain and get the dots aligned. Pull the gears off and put it all back on with the chain. Then do the verification in the Haynes info above, checking for the 20 pins. If that all goes well your dist 'should' be on #1 when you rotate back around to where the dots line up. If your crank is off the verification will fail.
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post #14 of 50 Old 02-23-2015, 08:34 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Euology101 View Post
I actually had a similar thought/question/dilemma myself (and maybe I'm not the best person to answer this, as my jeep is still dead) BUT if I remember correctly through research is that, your rotor points at the #1 plug wire, when your Harmonic balancer notch is pointed at the 0 degree mark on the Timing Chain cover, and this does not directly correlate to the 2 lined up dots.

For more info check out my thread https://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f12/s...18/index3.html go to post #36, and look at Mike Romain's response. Then fast Forward to his response at #47 as well, and again #49, more explanation. All confusing, I know. trust me. I know.
thanks eulogy, i am going to dig into the posts you're talking about. I just had a thought hi was reading too much into the aligning of the dots.

ANd thanks again T800. I am grasping a better understanding.

thanks

Stop whining about the 'ride' - If your YJ ain't wrangling your soul free, then might I suggest you buy a stationwagon... at least you can fit all your bull**** in the back.
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~YJOTM JULY '19~
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post #15 of 50 Old 02-24-2015, 06:00 PM Thread Starter
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That was a very helpful thread Eulogy thanks. and T800 with your helpful info i think i have finally wrapped my head around how this works and how i should do this.

I will rotate the cam/crank until i am at TDC @ #1 on the exhaust stroke (or at least as close as possible). I am probably a couple teeth off as my dots do not exactly center with each other (the crank timing dot seems about two teeth behind the cam timing dot as it stands with the old set still on)... i suspect im off about two teeth, possibly three. I will take off my chain and old sprockets at this point. FOllowing you T800 i will put the new sprockets on (sans chain) and with the cam dot already centered, i will rotate the crank to line up at center with the cam timing dot to make up for any teeth the chain might have jumped. I should then be at TDC @ #1 on the exhaust cycle. Then i'll take those sprockets off and assemble with the chain.

TO verify i will refer to the info you provided me T800... and if 20 pins are counted - it should be all good, correct?

Anything I have to do after this (aside from tensioner, and re-assembly)? SHould I rotate manually until I am at TDC @ #1 on the compression stroke before re-assembly? Am i on the right track here?

Stop whining about the 'ride' - If your YJ ain't wrangling your soul free, then might I suggest you buy a stationwagon... at least you can fit all your bull**** in the back.
~YJOTM MAY '16~
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