Steering - JeepForum.com
 5Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 20 Old 08-12-2020, 08:27 AM Thread Starter
SPLASHD0WN
Registered User
 
SPLASHD0WN's Avatar
1994 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 47
Steering

I have owned a Jeep, (94' YJ) for three weeks now and am slowly learning all I can and getting through the essentials... next is steering and brakes.

I have only driven a couple of YJs and know not to expect similar steering to my last car (a 2017 2.0 TDI Seat Leon Fr)... obviously... but I am trying to figure out if the steering is alright or not. I am aiming to tune this to be a cruiser, not a frequent off roader.

It still has the track and sway on. I haven't weighed it but it has hard top and is pretty stock w/o bull bars and a full spare on the rear. It has 16" rims with 235 70s on and i'm running them at 20 psi. The steering wheel rests at about 1 o'clock when the vehicle is going forward which I am hoping is just needing to adjust the drag links but I haven't done yet.

The issue are that its handling is a little loose to say the least and the other day I had to do my first partial emergency stop, a wide load decided to go down a narrow country lane and I came round a corner to be confronted by it at about 40-45 mph. I hit the brakes and off we went to the left until I almost ended up in a hedge. A couple of hundreds yards later with clear open road in front of me and no one behind I tried again to see what would happen. Off we went to the right this time.

Also when I apply the brakes to any real degree there is an undulating, almost rolling effect rear to front as it slows. Is this just the rear drums as apposed to disks? Is this normal?

Would this help? https://www.rocky-road.com/yj-high-steer.html

Where do I start investigating this? Take it in and ask a garage to change check fluids and alignments and brakes?

Thanks.

Attached Thumbnails
IMG_E8895.jpg   IMG_8982.jpg  
Attached Images
 

Last edited by SPLASHD0WN; 08-12-2020 at 08:38 AM.
SPLASHD0WN is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 20 Old 08-12-2020, 12:12 PM
EABiker
Registered User
1989 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Frederick, MD
Posts: 1,801
Welcome to the world of YJ's! With the short wheelbase, whenever you brake hard, the weight transfers to the front, unloading the rear tires causing them to lock up. Not unusual. You can check the steering play by turning the steering wheel and seeing how much play is in the steering gear by how long it takes to move the pitman arm. If that looks good, move to checking the tie rods and other steering components.
EABiker is offline  
post #3 of 20 Old 08-12-2020, 05:33 PM
Boojo35
Registered User
1987 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Beer City
Posts: 2,408
Garage
Nice clean and very pretty Jeep if I ignore some of the shiny stuff and lights. LOL.

Yes it sounds as though you have a brake or steering issue. The undulating you describe may be a pulsation.

I know that many people run tires at lower pressures on their Jeeps but those are LT tires that have really high load ratings. You are running 235's which could be still P tires, may be LT tires, but probably don't have a very high load rating. Running those at 20 PSI may be too low.
timatoe and Azhunter1 like this.

If you cannot fix it with a hammer then it has to be an electrical problem.
Boojo35 is offline  
 
post #4 of 20 Old 08-12-2020, 06:00 PM
fishadventure
Web Wheeler
 
fishadventure's Avatar
1989 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Morrisville
Posts: 8,015
Garage
I had a similar experience of “dart” on braking several separate times.

First time was the frame-side spring bushings. Totally shot on left rear spring and not great on the rest. Every time I braked it would steer to the left sortof hard. New bushings fixed it.

Another time the frame-side curl in a front main leaf broke allowing the axle to move and the jeep essentially crabwalk. I welded a piece in with a piece cut from a junk spring but eventually replaced the springs with new crowns.

Tie rod ends and a ball joint were another culprit.

In your case check those things; spring bushings are inexpensive and moog or Spicer have MUCH thicker steel sleeves over the fixed frame-side bushing rubber than the cheaper Omix parts.

Following that, complete disassembly and cleaning, lubing of the slides on the pads and proper cleanliness and adjustment of the rear shoes may fix it if the above things don’t.

If your springs are shot with negative arch instead of nearly flat or slightly ‘bent down‘ in their middles like stock - some steering weirdness can occur there, too, especially if other components are worn. It may pull as it “dives” and worn components absorb the changing load.

I’ve seen jeeps with 2” or taller mounts have enough flex that the body itself /feels/ like the jeep was darting but actually it was just the seat of the pants feel excreting bricks.

If you have lift with a stock track bar, when the front end dives you will often get something akin to “bump steer” where the track bar, as it flattens under braking force transferring weight forward, pushes the axle over. This essentially provides steering input as the axle moves laterally a smidge while the steering box is yet firmly mounted to the frame.

The last thing is the ‘road feel’ effect of worn ujoints in the steering shaft. Check those.

[size=“3”]Shackles & D-rings are different things.
Cranking IS turning over
fishadventure is offline  
post #5 of 20 Old 08-13-2020, 10:29 AM Thread Starter
SPLASHD0WN
Registered User
 
SPLASHD0WN's Avatar
1994 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boojo35 View Post
Nice clean and very pretty Jeep if I ignore some of the shiny stuff and lights. LOL.

Yes it sounds as though you have a brake or steering issue. The undulating you describe may be a pulsation.

I know that many people run tires at lower pressures on their Jeeps but those are LT tires that have really high load ratings. You are running 235's which could be still P tires, may be LT tires, but probably don't have a very high load rating. Running those at 20 PSI may be too low.
Lol, yeah I hate the lights too! It was one of the few bits the previous owner changed. I am planning on starting a new thread to ask if anyone has found decent LED headlights and turn signals that look more stock... or at least not this ugly. I must say I do like the swapped out silver/chrome door handles. I plan to switch out the mirrors to match.

My tires are rated up to 44 psi max, so ill up them to 25 psi today and see how that feels.

Thanks
SPLASHD0WN is offline  
post #6 of 20 Old 08-13-2020, 10:52 AM Thread Starter
SPLASHD0WN
Registered User
 
SPLASHD0WN's Avatar
1994 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 47
Steering

Quote:
Originally Posted by fishadventure View Post
I had a similar experience of “dart” on braking several separate times.

First time was the frame-side spring bushings. Totally shot on left rear spring and not great on the rest. Every time I braked it would steer to the left sortof hard. New bushings fixed it.

Another time the frame-side curl in a front main leaf broke allowing the axle to move and the jeep essentially crabwalk. I welded a piece in with a piece cut from a junk spring but eventually replaced the springs with new crowns.

Tie rod ends and a ball joint were another culprit.

In your case check those things; spring bushings are inexpensive and moog or Spicer have MUCH thicker steel sleeves over the fixed frame-side bushing rubber than the cheaper Omix parts.

Following that, complete disassembly and cleaning, lubing of the slides on the pads and proper cleanliness and adjustment of the rear shoes may fix it if the above things don’t.

If your springs are shot with negative arch instead of nearly flat or slightly ‘bent down‘ in their middles like stock - some steering weirdness can occur there, too, especially if other components are worn. It may pull as it “dives” and worn components absorb the changing load.

I’ve seen jeeps with 2” or taller mounts have enough flex that the body itself /feels/ like the jeep was darting but actually it was just the seat of the pants feel excreting bricks.

If you have lift with a stock track bar, when the front end dives you will often get something akin to “bump steer” where the track bar, as it flattens under braking force transferring weight forward, pushes the axle over. This essentially provides steering input as the axle moves laterally a smidge while the steering box is yet firmly mounted to the frame.

The last thing is the ‘road feel’ effect of worn ujoints in the steering shaft. Check those.

Cheers, fishadventure, that is the kinda info I was hoping for. Lots of new words in there for me to go learn about.

When you say "If your springs are shot with negative arch instead of nearly flat or slightly ‘bent down‘ in their middles like stock" I went and had a look at mine and they do seem flat or close to, what do you think?

I have booked it in to a shop on the 25th and will take in notes based on your suggestions for them to look at. Thanks again.

PS images uploaded in both orientations to try and correct but somehow they seem to auto-correct (incorrectly) to upside down
Attached Thumbnails
Front Left.jpg   Front Right.jpg   Rear Left.jpg   Rear Right.jpg  

Last edited by SPLASHD0WN; 08-13-2020 at 10:58 AM. Reason: Image orientation
SPLASHD0WN is offline  
post #7 of 20 Old 08-13-2020, 11:24 AM
jeeepguy
Registered User
 
jeeepguy's Avatar
1998 ZJ 
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Earth
Posts: 2,940
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPLASHD0WN View Post
PS images uploaded in both orientations to try and correct but somehow they seem to auto-correct (incorrectly) to upside down
Its a Jeep thing, you wouldn't understand...

"Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum"

"Great danger lies in the notion that we can reason with evil"
Doug Patton
Quote:
...We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. ...I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post...
Quote:
I bought the HI-WAY BLASTER HORN that's 139dB and every time I honk the horn an Angel dies.
Quote:
Revelation 13:16-18
16 - He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads,
17 - and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 - Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: (Real ID and RFID chips)
Think about it...
jeeepguy is offline  
post #8 of 20 Old 08-13-2020, 11:54 AM
grandboost98
Registered User
 
grandboost98's Avatar
1989 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Essex
Posts: 4,330
Garage
It kind of looks like you have a drop pitman arm on there. Usually the drag link and tie rod are pretty close to parallel on a stock YJ.
bruinjeeper likes this.

89 Wrangler-3.5" HD BDS lift,M.O.R.E HD 5/8" booms on 35" KM2s
99 Cherokee-2 door,5" lift on 35" KM2s
04 Grand Cherokee Overland
72 Chevy Nova-in progress

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

grandboost98 is offline  
post #9 of 20 Old 08-13-2020, 05:19 PM
bruinjeeper
Web Wheeler
 
bruinjeeper's Avatar
1995 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: New West
Posts: 8,614
...was gonna mention that. Beat me to it.

It does look like a drop pitman on stock height suspension

~YJOTM MAY '16, JULY '19~


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bruinjeeper is offline  
post #10 of 20 Old 08-14-2020, 04:52 AM Thread Starter
SPLASHD0WN
Registered User
 
SPLASHD0WN's Avatar
1994 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by grandboost98 View Post
It kind of looks like you have a drop pitman arm on there. Usually the drag link and tie rod are pretty close to parallel on a stock YJ.
Does this mean it's lifted from stock and requires a drop pitman or is this the incorrect part for my setup? Could this be from a former lift that has now sagged? Or more likely someone installed a drop pitman instead of OEM in error? Would this be effecting the handling?

Also whilst I have you guys here "This will be 95% cruiser and 5% off roader: should I remove the front and rear track bars? yes or no?"

Thanks
SPLASHD0WN is offline  
post #11 of 20 Old 08-14-2020, 05:51 AM
grandboost98
Registered User
 
grandboost98's Avatar
1989 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Essex
Posts: 4,330
Garage
The pitman arm, the piece that connects the steering box to the draglink, is longer or has more drop than a stock one which throws off your steering angles. They are usually used with a lift but it looks like your suspension is completely stock.

Its possible that someone might have lifted it before and returned everything to stock or that the previous owner had some issue with the original steering box and found a replacement that had a drop pitman arm on it already.

The track bars and sway bars are something you can remove and try driving without. If you don't like the feel then put them back on, being stock I don't think it will make much difference

89 Wrangler-3.5" HD BDS lift,M.O.R.E HD 5/8" booms on 35" KM2s
99 Cherokee-2 door,5" lift on 35" KM2s
04 Grand Cherokee Overland
72 Chevy Nova-in progress

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

grandboost98 is offline  
post #12 of 20 Old 08-14-2020, 06:09 AM Thread Starter
SPLASHD0WN
Registered User
 
SPLASHD0WN's Avatar
1994 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by grandboost98 View Post
The pitman arm, the piece that connects the steering box to the draglink, is longer or has more drop than a stock one which throws off your steering angles. They are usually used with a lift but it looks like your suspension is completely stock.

Its possible that someone might have lifted it before and returned everything to stock or that the previous owner had some issue with the original steering box and found a replacement that had a drop pitman arm on it already.

The track bars and sway bars are something you can remove and try driving without. If you don't like the feel then put them back on, being stock I don't think it will make much difference

Thanks for the info. I have sent the previous owner a carefully worded message to ask if he ever changed it or the suspension out. I'll get the track bars removed end of the month and see how it feels.
SPLASHD0WN is offline  
post #13 of 20 Old 08-14-2020, 07:32 AM
bruinjeeper
Web Wheeler
 
bruinjeeper's Avatar
1995 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: New West
Posts: 8,614
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPLASHD0WN View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by grandboost98 View Post
The pitman arm, the piece that connects the steering box to the draglink, is longer or has more drop than a stock one which throws off your steering angles. They are usually used with a lift but it looks like your suspension is completely stock.

Its possible that someone might have lifted it before and returned everything to stock or that the previous owner had some issue with the original steering box and found a replacement that had a drop pitman arm on it already.

The track bars and sway bars are something you can remove and try driving without. If you don't like the feel then put them back on, being stock I don't think it will make much difference

Thanks for the info. I have sent the previous owner a carefully worded message to ask if he ever changed it or the suspension out. I'll get the track bars removed end of the month and see how it feels.
Ur gonna prefer it. And rightfully so. Those trac bars are not required or needed.

Sway bar is all your preference. 95% street, I'd keep it on.

In my neck of the woods, I considered it just another thing to rust out on me lol. But I have kept it in storage for when i go Spring over axle. Removing all that stuff does make it nice and clean under the front end and just easier to work on without stuff in the way. But I imagine it does do its job.

~YJOTM MAY '16, JULY '19~


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
bruinjeeper is offline  
post #14 of 20 Old 08-14-2020, 12:40 PM
fishadventure
Web Wheeler
 
fishadventure's Avatar
1989 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Morrisville
Posts: 8,015
Garage
And it should handle a lot better sitting parked if you get rid of that chrome balance and unpainted grill.

I didn’t notice the pitman, (phone) but ya, that will tug the steering and is more than likely part of the dart-on-braking issue

[size=“3”]Shackles & D-rings are different things.
Cranking IS turning over
fishadventure is offline  
post #15 of 20 Old 08-14-2020, 05:06 PM Thread Starter
SPLASHD0WN
Registered User
 
SPLASHD0WN's Avatar
1994 YJ Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 47
So in the Jeep Wrangler (YJ)_Cherokee (XJ)_Grand Cherokke (ZJ) Parts Catalog.pdf it has standard Crown Automotive MPN for with and without power steering (pictured). But my research suggests when power steering is involved it becomes important if the vehicle is left or right hand drive. Mine is RHD with power steering. Therefor this MPN for the pitman arm with power steering (5204 0112) is LHD and won't fit my RHD vehicle. I can't find a MPN for a RHD pitman arm with power steering... for a YJ. I have found the MPN for the TJ RHD pitman arm with power steering (5203 8338).

Does anyone know if the TJ pitman arms fit the YJ... or the MPN I am looking for?

Also I am wondering if this has anything to do with why the wrong part is currently on mine, hard to find.
Attached Thumbnails
PitmanArms-1.jpg  
SPLASHD0WN is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the JeepForum.com forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid e-mail address for yourself.



Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome