Major Repair, Mean Max's AX-15 Rebuild QUESTION THREAD!!!! - Page 12 - JeepForum.com
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post #166 of 212 Old 07-15-2016, 04:31 PM
bobjp
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Well, I got it to shift. I removed the extension housing and forced it out of reverse (now it's in neutral). I dry assembled with it on the bench and have it shifting through all gears.

I think it boils down to being difficult to install the shift arm when the transmission is in reverse. As you said, you put the finger into the C shaped cups on the end of the shift shafts. If you're in neutral all of the cups line up, but if you're in reverse the top cup on the reverse gear shift shaft is further forward than the other 2. So you would have to fish the finger up into it. I won't say it's impossible because I haven't tried with this new knowledge, but it would be difficult at the very least and unlikely to be recognized by a novice (like me). I was just putting the finger into the lower 2 cups. It looked right and was the way I'd done it before.

I think it's a good rule of thumb to just assemble the case while in neutral.

I don't know if I left it in reverse after the previous dry fit or if I bumped the reverse shift shaft when installing the extension housing.

Prior to removing the extension housing, I tried the steps in that video. I did not see anything that would act as a lock through any of the 3 larger case holes. I could see the reverse shift fork through the reverse light sensor hole. Maybe I could have forced it out of reverse through that hole, but there wasn't much to pry on.


Last edited by bobjp; 07-15-2016 at 04:43 PM.
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post #167 of 212 Old 07-15-2016, 04:38 PM
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Glad you came up with a solution.

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We will be going Metric every inch of the way.
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yes I'm a some guy and have always put gasket sealer on my surfaces before mating
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You should go to Pirate. I hear they are real smart over there. You'd fit right in.
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post #168 of 212 Old 07-15-2016, 04:44 PM
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Thanks a lot for all of your quick response and help!
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post #169 of 212 Old 08-04-2016, 04:08 PM
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Well, now I am having another issue. It has been 2.5 weeks and ~4-500 miles since I put the transmission in. Today, a noise started. The noise is difficult to describe; I'll call it a scratchy rattle sound. Sort of like if you were to shake a dry roller bearing, but fast and it sounds rotational.


It occurs when parked with the transmission in gear (every gear: 1-5 + Rev) and the clutch pressed. It does not occur when parked in neutral with or without the clutch pressed. It does not always happen when driving at slow speeds. Maybe when I first let the clutch out, but not at 5 mph. Above that speed I can't hear anything over all of the other noises.

Nothing in the transmission should be rotating when the clutch is pressed so why would putting it in and out of gear make a difference?

Prior to this, I have had no issues with the transmission. The trans shifts fine as it did before the rebuild. The original reason for the rebuild was a broken fifth gear on the mainshaft.


Any ideas?

97 TJ sport.
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post #170 of 212 Old 08-04-2016, 04:41 PM
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I spent some time pondering this, and it does not make a ton of sense. Either way, (shifted into a gear or in neutral) when the clutch pedal is depressed, your transmission is not turning under a load. The things that turn-clutch out in neutral-is the input shaft which will then spin the cluster gear, and the individual gears on the mainshaft will idle, but no power is transmitted since the main shaft will not be rotating. Shifting into a gear, any gear, and idling with the clutch pedal depressed the input shaft should not be turning except maybe a tiny bit based on parasitic drag from the pilot bearing on the input snout. This should really be the same situation as transmission in neutral with the clutch pedal depressed. I'm not coming up with anything in common here between these two alternative situations in which you are describing your rattle.
When you hold onto your shifter, do you feel anything strange which corresponds to the sound when it happens? My gut feeling here is just watch and see what it does, and make sure your gear lube hasn't got low in the short time since your rebuild.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian4.2 View Post
We will be going Metric every inch of the way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 40dog View Post
yes I'm a some guy and have always put gasket sealer on my surfaces before mating
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virjeep View Post
You should go to Pirate. I hear they are real smart over there. You'd fit right in.
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post #171 of 212 Old 08-04-2016, 06:03 PM
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Thanks again for your quick response.


I just checked the oil level. It has lost none.


There are no abnormal vibrations in the shifter.


I just started it again. Upon start up it made the noise in neutral with the clutch pressed. But once I moved it, I could not repeat the noise in neutral. Again, I can now consistently turn the noise on and off by shifting in and out of gear while parked.


I was trying to theorize about the parasitic drag. There has always been parasitic drag with my clutch. This is apparent because shifting into any gear at a stop is noticeably (but barely) more resistant with the engine running. But it's always been that way (multiple clutches, multiple slaves, and before/after trans rebuild). So I do think the input shaft to the trans is always spinning at some less rpm if the engine is running, but I can't seem to tie that into why shifting makes a difference for the noise.


I did leave out that I have heard some new noises since the rebuild. They've all been very faint and inconsistent. I feel that they might be from the TOB or it's interface with the clutch. The noises are a faint squeak that is relieved with light clutch pressure, a very light knocking noise in neutral with clutch out, and a light vibration in neutral with clutch out. Again, these noises don't happen consistently, and no one else would probably notice. I happened to read a thread where someone damaged their clutch fingers upon install of the trans, and they were getting a loud knocking noise. I figured maybe I had bent the fingers slightly.


But even if the clutch fingers were damaged, why would the noise only happen in gear?

97 TJ sport.
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post #172 of 212 Old 08-04-2016, 08:41 PM
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Hard to say, and it's a head scratcher. If you happened to install a TOB with a plastic/composite body, I could suggest that your TOB is failing since those plastic TOBs are known to fracture and fail, some do it pretty early. I have long recommended sourcing a metal body TOB separately if your kit happens to come with a plastic one. The worst ones are the complete plastic composite unit, the sort of okay ones have stamped metal body but the sleeve that slides on the snout of your front bearing retainer is plastic. The best, and the ones I recommend, have a cast iron/machined body.
All of that being said, I replaced a fractured OEM/original cast iron TOB in one of my Rubicons @ 112K miles just in July. It may have been from unusual and excessive wear on the pressure plate fingers, but it is hard to know which came first really.

While I doubt you have PP finger damage at this early point, I think I'd keep driving it until it gives you some more symptoms that help diagnose the issue.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian4.2 View Post
We will be going Metric every inch of the way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 40dog View Post
yes I'm a some guy and have always put gasket sealer on my surfaces before mating
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virjeep View Post
You should go to Pirate. I hear they are real smart over there. You'd fit right in.
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post #173 of 212 Old 08-05-2016, 06:14 AM
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I had a AX-5 that was making the noise you described. It ended up being the input bearing. It finally failed and trashed the rest of the transmission with it. Had to have it towed home.
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post #174 of 212 Old 08-06-2016, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by ktrip View Post
I had a AX-5 that was making the noise you described. It ended up being the input bearing. It finally failed and trashed the rest of the transmission with it. Had to have it towed home.

So your input bearing only made noise when the clutch was pressed and the transmission was in gear? Not in neutral or with the clutch out?


I have heard the noise now only twice while in neutral and very rarely it won't happen when in gear. But 95% of the time switching in and out of gear while parked it is like flipping a light switch.

97 TJ sport.
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post #175 of 212 Old 08-06-2016, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Opihi59 View Post
Hard to say, and it's a head scratcher. If you happened to install a TOB with a plastic/composite body, I could suggest that your TOB is failing since those plastic TOBs are known to fracture and fail, some do it pretty early. I have long recommended sourcing a metal body TOB separately if your kit happens to come with a plastic one. The worst ones are the complete plastic composite unit, the sort of okay ones have stamped metal body but the sleeve that slides on the snout of your front bearing retainer is plastic. The best, and the ones I recommend, have a cast iron/machined body.
All of that being said, I replaced a fractured OEM/original cast iron TOB in one of my Rubicons @ 112K miles just in July. It may have been from unusual and excessive wear on the pressure plate fingers, but it is hard to know which came first really.

While I doubt you have PP finger damage at this early point, I think I'd keep driving it until it gives you some more symptoms that help diagnose the issue.


I will drive it some but the noise is very concerning even though it does "seem" to make the noise while moving. It's not something I would want to drive more than a couple miles from home.


Sometimes when parked in gear with the clutch pressed I feel something try to grab as the noise changes.


I did not replace the clutch or TOB with the trans rebuild. I had replaced those parts 20,000 miles ago. They were both functioning fine prior to the rebuild. The TOB is a national with an entirely cast iron housing.


I can't seem to make sense of how this noise is turned on and off. Noise is caused by relative motion, right? So what doesn't have relative motion when the clutch is pressed in neutral but does have relative motion when you put it in gear with the clutch still pressed.


All I can think is the residual drag on the input shaft is keeping it spinning, but when you shove it in gear, the shaft stops spinning and now you have relative motion between 2 parts that you didn't have before. But I can't think of which 2 parts. The clutch disc and the pressure plate?

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post #176 of 212 Old 08-06-2016, 11:58 AM
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With engine running and clutch pedal up, the flywheel, pressure plate, clutch plate and input shaft will all turn at the same speed since they're all locked together. When you depress the clutch pedal, this should allow the clutch plate to separate from the rest of the rotating parts, and it will slow down based on drag, decaying inertia, etc. While the input shaft is turning, it is also turning the cluster gear, which turns the idling gears on the main shaft.
With engine running when you shift the transmission into gear, any gear, your transmission internals can't turn since you have now locked a gear on the main shaft, but the vehicle is stationary. The input shaft will not be turning, and since the clutch plate is splined on the input shaft, it is not turning either. Since the engine is running, the flywheel and pressure plate are spinning at the same RPM as your engine.
Your relative motion then, is your clutch plate, in reference to the flywheel and pressure plate. This would imply that your noise comes from your clutch assembly, which also includes the TOB, since it is pressing against flywheel fingers and is spinning. Of course if your input shaft is sitting still--clutch pedal depressed, transmission in gear, engine running.......then your pilot bearing is spinning inside the crank against the stationary pilot snout of your input shaft.

So, I don't believe your transmission has a problem, the problem lies in the parts you replaced 20K miles ago. Could you have damaged your pilot bearing any while re-installing your transmission? Is it "Dry?" Did you put any Moly grease on the face of the TOB where it meets the fingers? By any chance did you let the transmission "hang" on the clutch splines while stabbing it back in and trying to get splines aligned--that can warp/damage the clutch plate, and maybe make a scuffing sound when the pedal is depressed.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian4.2 View Post
We will be going Metric every inch of the way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 40dog View Post
yes I'm a some guy and have always put gasket sealer on my surfaces before mating
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virjeep View Post
You should go to Pirate. I hear they are real smart over there. You'd fit right in.
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post #177 of 212 Old 08-07-2016, 10:43 AM
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I agree that it seems the only place for relative motion under theconditions when the noise occurs is around the clutch assembly.


I did not put any grease on the clutch fingers, and I neverinspected the pilot bearing because I did not remove the clutch. I don't know if I have the dry bushing or the roller bearing type. Myclutch had gone out on a trip and I had a mechanic replace it.


Getting the transmission aligned by myself with a floor jack wasdifficult. There were moments when the input shaft was putting forceon the clutch fingers. That's what I thought may be causing thelesser noises I heard. I don't recall doing anything that I thinkcould have damaged the pilot bearing, but maybe I did.


It seems that the pilot bearing is the most likely culprit if itis the roller bearing type. I don't see how anything else could makenoise under the conditions. Hopefully, it hasn't destroyed thetransmission input shaft.


I won't say it totally adds up becausethere is still some relative motion between the input shaft and thepilot bearing even when the clutch is depressed and in neutral.Otherwise, my input shaft would be spinning at 800 rpm and I wouldnot be able to get it into gear.


I don't see how the clutch disc orpressure plate could make the noise I am hearing. I could see the TOBmaking the noise, but it would have to do it in neutral and when theclutch is depressed.

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post #178 of 212 Old 08-07-2016, 11:55 AM
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Well, remember I have not heard the noise. The quality of the noise could be more likely to help narrow things down. For years I used a floor jack with a cradle I welded up to hold the transmission in place, and maneuvered that around. It worked for me for years. Just recently though I did 2 clutches in 4 X 4s in WA state for my kids, and oldest son bought a transmission jack from Horror Freight for the job(s). It was just an amazing tool and cheap as well since it was on sale; it made all the difference in the world, so I suppose I am now spoiled and will likely buy my own, but out here in the Sandwich Isles there is no China Freight, and transmission jacks cost me a whole lot more. I'm not getting younger but I can still bench a lot more than I weigh, but it is awkward trying to do a precision alignment while holding up a heavy weight and all the blood has drained out of your arms like some sustained isometric exercise from hell.

Enter the alignment dowels........I have made a set of these for all the various and sundry transmission jobs I have done and saved them in a drawer for the next time, and have a pile in different lengths and threads. The idea here is to have something guide the front of the transmission into place for better alignment, while also taking the weight of the transmission off of things like clutch plate center, pressure plate fingers, etc. All you have to do is support the back end of the transmission and slide it home. I leave the transmission in gear so I can turn the output shaft a bit if the clutch splines do not align with the input shaft splines. I never leave the back end of the transmission unsupported. I put the dowels in the widest apart bolt holes, but a photo is worth a lotta beans here. Blue tape on the dowels just to make them show up in the photo.









I cut a little slot in the end for a screwdriver tip if needed to unscrew them, but this is a bit excessive since you could always grab with a pair of pliers. I also put a little chamfer on the ends of them too. The length I find that works best for YJ/TJ is 4-4 1/2". I don't use all-thread since the threads act like a file on the bell housing, I just get long bolts out of my spare "Box-'O-Bolts" and cut off the heads. The first time you use this trick, you'll see the value. Once I get the transmission mated, I put in a few other bellhousing bolts and snug them up, then pull out my dowels and put in the proper bolts.

So if you do end up dropping the trans again and replacing the clutch, try the alignment dowel trick, and strongly consider a proper transmission jack. They can be rented too. Luk clutch kit, cast TOB, etc. I think that will fix your problem.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian4.2 View Post
We will be going Metric every inch of the way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 40dog View Post
yes I'm a some guy and have always put gasket sealer on my surfaces before mating
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virjeep View Post
You should go to Pirate. I hear they are real smart over there. You'd fit right in.
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post #179 of 212 Old 08-08-2016, 08:14 AM
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Those dowel pins are a good idea. When I replaced the engine long ago, I used extra long bolts. I was going to do the same this time, but the bolts I grabbed from work were not long enough so I figured I would just manage without. Those dowels are a much better idea.


I will give the noise more thought before doing any work. Feeling that the pilot bearing is causing the noise, I am concerned about running it and damaging the input shaft which may already be done.

97 TJ sport.
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post #180 of 212 Old 08-08-2016, 08:37 AM
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So your input bearing only made noise when the clutch was pressed and the transmission was in gear? Not in neutral or with the clutch out?



I have heard the noise now only twice while in neutral and very rarely it won't happen when in gear. But 95% of the time switching in and out of gear while parked it is like flipping a light switch.



Yes, put it on jack stands and ran it so I could pinpoint where it was coming from. Another thing it could be is one of the springs on the clutch disc. Had that happened one time and didn't realize that's where it was coming from until I replaced the clutch. It was loose and was rattling around
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