Front 4 link build - Page 3 - JeepForum.com
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post #31 of 60 Old 10-01-2020, 05:40 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobracing View Post
I do understand what is being said, opposite force should reverse the numbers.

But why does it matter which direction the axle is trying to twist? The bars are pushing energy, compression or tension, to the instant center, does it matter how it got there? The instant center gives "squat" by being below or above the 100% line by geometry.

I just can't find anything that says anti-dive calculations are different from anti-squat.
Being a little simplistic, wouldn't the link calculator program have a front/rear configuration if they were?
You gotta remember that a guy by the username Triaged (Dan Barcroft) on Pirate4x4 developed the calculators on his own accord over 15 years ago. To my knowledge no one has ever paid him to do any of this yet it's become the bible of pretty much all offroad designs since. I assume he originally did it for himself and then shared the information....so if he understands it and explained it to others while getting feedback during development then...job done as far he's likely concerned. The calculator is not a simple system for dummies. A lot of research has to go into even using it properly.

Maybe this will help you understand the difference from a more reputable source. https://www.crawlpedia.com/4_link_suspension.htm

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post #32 of 60 Old 10-02-2020, 10:07 AM Thread Starter
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Well the 4 links are assembled and fully installed. Now on to the part that I didn't have a plan for.... the shock mounts. Looks like it's going to take some heavy inner fender trimming along with the relocation of a few things that have been mounted to those fenders. However, I don't think I'll need to notch the frame at this time.
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post #33 of 60 Old 10-02-2020, 05:06 PM
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That is sick! Nice work!

If you cannot fix it with a hammer then it has to be an electrical problem.
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post #34 of 60 Old 10-03-2020, 06:46 PM Thread Starter
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Got the shock hoops welded in. Cut a little too much of the passenger inner fender but got it better on the driver side. The cross brace for the shocks hoops was way more work and a much bigger pain than I thought it would be.

Initially, the Harbor Freight pipe kinker worked pretty well all things considered. Unfortunately, that's where the easy part stopped. Trying to line up an angled bar against some angled bars when you can't actually get it into place until it's cut is tricky for sure. Once I got it cut, I realized that it needed to be bent a little over the fan but under the upper radiator hose. Welds are cooling and I need to paint everything but hoping to the shocks installed and back on all 4 wheels this weekend.

Had a minor hiccup as well. Was cutting a tack weld off and nicked a coolant hose. Luckily I had a hose that fit perfectly.
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post #35 of 60 Old 10-04-2020, 09:06 AM Thread Starter
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Got the cross brace installed and painted. Not perfect but I'm sure it'll work.
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post #36 of 60 Old 10-04-2020, 03:48 PM Thread Starter
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Still need to hook up brake lines, steering lines, and add coolant. Plus need to add limiting straps but at least it's back on all 4 wheels.
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post #37 of 60 Old 10-05-2020, 09:25 AM
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Looking good

87 YJ, 5.7/TH350/NP241/HP Dana44/9", Custom 4 link/ Radius Arms, ADS Nitrogen Shocks, 35" Cooper STT


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post #38 of 60 Old 10-05-2020, 10:52 AM
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You sure your springs won't hit the frame at full droop? For clearance as well as stability the bottom shock mounts are usually as far out on the knuckle as possible. Yours look to angle in at the bottom slightly.


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post #39 of 60 Old 10-05-2020, 01:07 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Randonexplosion View Post
You sure your springs won't hit the frame at full droop? For clearance as well as stability the bottom shock mounts are usually as far out on the knuckle as possible. Yours look to angle in at the bottom slightly.
Yes it clears and yes it does angle in at the bottom by about 2-3 degrees. Looks like more than that but that's all it is. My rear shocks angle out at roughly 2-3 degrees but I frenched the frame and was able to mount the upper mount more inboard. Ideally, I'd say they should angle outboard because the shock angle would be more consistent throughout the travel but I don't know that it really matters for stability. I would think stability of the Jeep is still based on the tire width. For some reason I didn't take a picture but I set up the shock hoops at both bump and droop and did end up pushing the hoops outboard a bit more to make sure I cleared the frame. I still need to set bumpstops and limiting straps before I can drive it....or at minimum bumpstops to drive on the street.

Unfortunately, I think I need to go with a set of these shock mounts to get the through bolt for the shock eyes to run fore/aft rather than inboard/outboard. The shock angles at the axle are pretty severe and I'm a little worried about breaking the aluminum eye of the shock on the bump side when the axle is fully flexed out. It's a lot for the spherical bearings to take and the shocks don't have real high misalignment spacers. My current shock mounts are shaved/angled slightly to allow the side to side clearance needed but I don't know how good of a solution that is or how good I was at mimicking the exact worst case scenario. I know I used these same shock mounts in the rear but it's a little different scenario.

Some modifications to this will be required before a shakedown run though. It's not the end of the world because I'm going to have to pull the shock at all 4 corners anyway. The lower springs on the rear are the springs I want to run on the uppers in the front and I have some slightly firmer springs I bought for the rear lowers. So a little musical chairs and unfortunately, I couldn't do this until I got the Jeep off jackstands.
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Last edited by Waternut; 10-05-2020 at 02:09 PM. Reason: Forgot the picture
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post #40 of 60 Old 10-05-2020, 10:04 PM
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@Waternut body roll is the main thing that shock angle can help with. Could be the difference between needing a sway bar or not. I wish I could have gotten mine out wider at the bottom.

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post #41 of 60 Old 10-06-2020, 06:01 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Randonexplosion View Post
@Waternut body roll is the main thing that shock angle can help with. Could be the difference between needing a sway bar or not. I wish I could have gotten mine out wider at the bottom.

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That makes sense. Pretty sure I'm going to need a sway bar regardless. The suspension roll center in the front and rear is around 24-25" and my CG of the Jeep is around 37". I noticed a significant amount of body roll when I swapped the rear leafs for coilovers so I'm pretty confident that swapping the front as well is going to make that much worse. Either way, mounting my shocks even as far outboard as the knuckles will only give me a few extra degrees and will require cutting the hood which I refuse to do.

I've been a little sick the past couple days and haven't done much but the Jeep is ready to come out of the garage. Hopefully I can get it out and drive it around the neighborhood a little today. Once I do an initial assessment, I'll swap the coilover springs to where they need to be.
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post #42 of 60 Old 10-06-2020, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by jsawduste View Post
What does or doesn't it do that makes you desire changing to links and C/O`s ?
Late to the party. Not sure how I missed this thread. I guess i haven't been on here as much lately.

I won't speak for anyone else, but mine is so much better since I linked the front. I had made leafs work very well, and likely past their limits for several years.

For me the biggest improvement is when doing steep downhill trails. I used to hate doing big drops. When the front hit with leaves the axle would wrap backwards then spring back, making the whole experience much more jarring and violent than I liked. Now doing the same and much worse is cake. Smooth and stable.

Also, as my springs were getting worn in I had pretty severe axle wrap in the front (re soa springs). In one instance it resulted in a broken u joint that shot a cap past my friends about 50' away.

Now that I've worked on the valving on the front shocks, the ride quality is no comparison.

I think part of equation is 1 tons. Imo they are just too heavy for leaf springs to be flexible enough to work well, while also being strong enough to survive with that amount of weight.

Anyhow, those are my thoughts on the why. Sure, a well setup leaf spring rig can work and ride well. I don't believe (based on experience) it will be as durable and capable as a well setup link suspension.


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post #43 of 60 Old 10-06-2020, 12:40 PM Thread Starter
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Well I took out for a short trip around the neighborhood and surprisingly there isn't much if any more body roll than there was before. The body definitely rolls in turns but it doesn't feel sketchy. The front seems pretty solid under braking and doesn't really dive at all. I've always driven this Jeep super conservatively on the road so I may just skip the sway bar for now and see how it does over time. Hoping to stiffen up the springs a little this afternoon and that may help with body roll as well.

Right now the springs are funky and I'm running 110/95 rates in the rear and 150/80 in the front. Both are sitting lower than I'd like but the front needs to come up about 1.5". The plan is run 130/95 in the rear and 150/110 in the front but couldn't really accomplish that until I got the Jeep off jackstands and could play musical springs.

As for suspension balance, it looks like the front and rear compress pretty evenly now.
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post #44 of 60 Old 10-06-2020, 03:33 PM Thread Starter
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Got the springs changed. Used the engine hoist to accomplish a sketchy task in a slightly less sketchy way. Fixed the stance issue at least and got me a little clearance on the bumpstops. Body roll is about the same. If I take a 90 degree turn around 15-20mph, it's not so bad. Maybe a little worse if I'm turning right so probably need to adjust the preload to account for my butt in the seat. If I steer one way and immediately steer the other, it can be a bit alarming but I think most lifted vehicles will feel like that even if they have sway bars.

Just need limiting straps now.
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post #45 of 60 Old 10-08-2020, 12:07 PM Thread Starter
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Updated my pricing totals at the beginning for the extra stuff I bought like shock mounting bolts, cross brace tubing, limiting straps, and spray paint. It's not a complete list of everything I bought but still under $1500. I can copy my Barnes4wd order if someone really wants it.

I'm not counting grinding/cut off wheels, plasma cutter consumables, or welding wire but still an incredibly cost effective way to change over to coilovers. I know my rear was more expensive and would be closer to $2500 with air bumps based on prices today but I also bought more expensive joints, shocks, and the air bumps as well. So around $4k for front and rear 4 link suspension with coilovers. It's certainly not cheap by any stretch of the imagination. Although for comparison, the GenRight kit with coilovers and a few extra goodies is usually around $9k, Rubicon Express makes a coilover kit for the JK which costs around $8700, and generic TJ long arm kits are usually $2k - $4k depending on the brand/quality. So compared to those, I'd call it a bargain but I'm biased. haha


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