After lots of reading, calculating, and planning, I overshot the pinion angle when doing my 8.8 swap. I think I'm at 17 degrees instead of 15 with a 4" RE lift. I haven't driven it yet, but it looks like my driveshaft is going to bind slightly on the bottom, I can take pictures tomorrow.
There are three solutions at three different price ranges, just trying to get opinions.
1. Drive Jeep in 4wd with the front D/S connected (Only) and go to a shop for $200-$250 to have the perches re-welded correctly.
2. Shorten the D/S by 1/2" so it doesn't bind.
3. Cheapest and Easiest, install 2 degree perch shims, going the opposite way to bring the pinion angle down.
I don't mind spending the money to get it welded properly, but if it severe overkill, which I tend to do with everything the Jeep comes in contact with, I want to know if there's a simpler, cheaper, easiest way to fix my mess up.
Until you're ready to get it done properly cash-wise. I overshot mine as well on my most recent 8.8 install. (I also had 2 degree shims laying around in my storage locker for about 5 years).
I chose to shim it down a few degrees because I plan on a tummy tuck in the not too distant future and the extra angle looks as though it will work in favour to the tummy tuck.
Until you're ready to get it done properly cash-wise. I overshot mine as well on my most recent 8.8 install. (I also had 2 degree shims laying around in my storage locker for about 5 years).
I chose to shim it down a few degrees because I plan on a tummy tuck in the not too distant future and the extra angle looks as though it will work in favour to the tummy tuck.
Ideally I'd want less than 1 degree but I'd probably drive it first and see if there are any vibrations before continuing further. 2 degrees isn't a ton so if there are no vibrations, drive for a little while and let the springs settle.
I was going to buy a welder when I started the restore and this was going to be my first major project. Since it took three years and I'm moving from TX to CO this year, I decided against it. In retrospect, I could've put that $260 I just blew towards a cheap MIG. Oh well, you live you learn.
Just buy a cheaper flux core welder, set it to max, and weld all sides of the perch. I bought my first one for $90 off Amazon and it worked fine. I only upgraded because I didn't trust a cheap welder to weld up a roll cage. Sell it later if you don't want to move it and/or if you'd prefer something more powerful and refined.
That said, I'd personally run shims for now if I was in your shoes. They aren't that big of a deal and if you lift it more or do a tummy tuck later, you won't need to reweld. If you do a SOA later, all of this won't even matter.
I'll probably just shim it if I have vibes. I may do a tummy tuck at some point, but if Shims are really no big deal, it seems a little wasteful to have it re-welded.
Another question. I had the shock mounts welded flush with the axle. I bought the M.O.R.E. Upper Shock mount relocation brackets, they arrive on Monday. I may or may not install these. It seems like the stock 8.8 shock mount on the U Bolt plate doesn't sit any lower than the U Bolts themselves. If I decide to use the stock location instead of the new welded mount, the two won't interfere with each other, correct? Like if the shock is not physically touching the unused lower mount when bolted to U Bolt plate and the Upper mount when on level ground, then it won't when it flexes either?
If not I can grind them off, but I kind of want to leave them in case I do a U Bolt flip or something else down the road.
I need that for every time I've hit my head on one of those pointy little buggers alone. Too bad I just paid 40 bucks for new U bolts... Hint: They're round, not square.
Ummm I'm not sure why you're taking close ups of the double cardan joint. That's the joint that's supposed to be angled. The joint coming out of the axle is the one that's supposed to be straight.
I debated the community college welding class. I'm sure there is a lot of good information there but the schools near me didn't just have a crash course on welding. They're highly specialized courses of 4 credit hours each meant to get you to a welding certificate which I don't need. You also have to apply to the college which I'm sure is just a formality provided you're an adult who got through high school but it's another step in the process. Then you have to pay the tuition which was in the neighborhood of $800 per course unless you have a scholarship which is more paperwork. Ultimately, I decided I'd rather try pushing wire than pushing paperwork for an official welding class. So a $250 used Lincoln flux core welder, some scrap steel, and youtube taught me how to weld. I'm no pro but I've welded my V8 mounts in place and built a skid plate, roll cage, and rewelded every component on my suspension. So far everything has been tested pretty harshly except the roll cage and held up. Hoping I never have to test the roll cage.
I didn't have the luxury of asking a friend so it's taken me a bit longer to learn but if you've got a buddy who has welded before, offer him a few beers and/or pizza to watch you and you'll learn a lot faster.
I highly recommend some practice before you do anything safety related though.
Same here, looked into it and skipped it. I just wanted to get decent on my one MIG welder, not TIG and OxAc and all. I had a lot of scrap metal and just practiced and played and welded until things didn't break. I'm not great at it, but in most cases now I'm not embarrassed by my welds being visible on the Jeep.
Since we've veered off course on the welding class talk, I guess that's one thing (maybe one of only a few things) CA has going for it. Took an intro to MIG class, a full semester for $85 tuition and a $35 materials fee.
OP, the problem I see with your pinion is you used random arbitrary numbers to set it. You said you're at 17 rather than 15, where does that come from? I've seen multiple people say they set the pinion to a certain angle (usually some number someone told them or they read online) and when I see them saying that they're talking about how their pinion angle is off. I don't understand why anyone does it that way. All that has to be done is put the rear under it, put the weight of the Jeep on the axle and spin the pinion until it's 2 degrees below the t-case output. I use a framing square as a straight edge, which is super easy on the 8.8 since it has that nice flat flange to work with. Please don't think I'm bashing you, I just think you were lead down a path of doing something in a way that lead to poor results. FWIW, I'd just run shims at this point to get it where it needs to be.
Since we've veered off course on the welding class talk, I guess that's one thing (maybe one of only a few things) CA has going for it. Took an intro to MIG class, a full semester for $85 tuition and a $35 materials fee.
OP, the problem I see with your pinion is you used random arbitrary numbers to set it. You said you're at 17 rather than 15, where does that come from? I've seen multiple people say they set the pinion to a certain angle (usually some number someone told them or they read online) and when I see them saying that they're talking about how their pinion angle is off. I don't understand why anyone does it that way. All that has to be done is put the rear under it, put the weight of the Jeep on the axle and spin the pinion until it's 2 degrees below the t-case output. I use a framing square as a straight edge, which is super easy on the 8.8 since it has that nice flat flange to work with. Please don't think I'm bashing you, I just think you were lead down a path of doing something in a way that lead to poor results. FWIW, I'd just run shims at this point to get it where it needs to be.
Nothing I do is arbitrary. I set the pinion angle by pointing it straight at my T Case and then dropping it slightly, tack welded and removed the axle. I didn't get to put the full weight of the vehicle on the springs before I tacked it because I was paying a welder by the hour and everything I did that day didn't go as planned. The whole issue started because I biffed it when I cut the original perches off and cut into the axle tubing 1/8". I figured I'd have the welder fix that when he did my perches. In retrospect, I should've put the axle in the back of my truck (that I sold last week, because you know, I'm moving) and had the tube fixed first and then set all my angles.
It's just irritating when you do 100 hours of research on a project, ask a simple question because you want someone's advice that is more knowledgable and get responses like "you should really learn to weld." I just spent $20K on a restore and wanted to learn to weld as part of the process. But after 4 years and not having my Jeep I just decided, I'd rather have my Jeep. I also didn't want to learn how to weld while installing a safety feature on my Jeep, since I could die if the thing falls apart at highway speeds.
FWIW I have a friend that owns a motorcycle shop that used to do all my welding for me. He moved and I needed to get this done so I can too. I also don't buy S%&^ tools. Harbor freight is fine for a engine hoist I'm going to use once, but not for installing safety features that keep me alive. Just my opinion. When I do eventually learn to weld, I plan on buying a Miller or something comparable, just didn't have the funds right before I uproot my life and leave TX.
If I have issues, I'm just going to shim it for now, since I did that with my D35 and had no issues. I like to do things correctly and it just bugs me if I have to "rig" something to get it to work properly. Currently I've spent all morning trying to figure out if I want to relocate my upper shock mounts or just get shorter shocks. I'm leaning towards returning the M.O.R.E. relocation kit and going the shorter shock route since apparently "droop" doesn't matter as much on leaf springs as it does with coils.
There's a lot of BAD information and advice on this forum. Sometimes it's hard to sort through it to get the correct answer.
I don't think that using shims is really a half baked approach like you're assuming. As long as you aren't using wood or something super crappy, those shims are going to outlast your vehicle.
As for your shocks... I ran and still run stock shocks 19" long and 12" compressed in the rear where your shock mounts are and I'm running the original upper shock locations. Since those shocks are at a pretty heavy angle, the shocks are not my limiting factor. The picture below is with 35's and SOA but I also ran those same shocks with 33's and a 4.5" Rough Country SUA lift. The shocks are pretty close to being the limiting factor but they aren't yet.
I'm not sure where you're finding this "bad information" since most posts I read are pretty good. Some people are offering up ideas that maybe you haven't thought of which may not be what the original poster wants but things he should at least consider. There are obviously lots of people who had a similar issue that may not turn out to be the original posters problem but it is a community trying to help. This concept leads into all the welder talk. The first few posts said use shims and explained why. Any talk about buying a welder is coming from people who have been in your shoes and understand your reservations with buying a welder you don't know how to use and some even regarding the concerns of getting ready to move.
Most of the folks on here are pretty helpful. JeeperDon and Timatoe have helped me out countless times. As for the bad information I'm referring to, let's take the shock mounts as an example. A lot of the STICKY threads include them in their ford 8.8 install. I've also read folks who said the bolts will break, so you should weld them. Some said that a properly bolted mount is just as strong as a weld. Some say don't use them at all. Some say they have no regrets about installing them.
Personally, after having my buddy weld up all the holes in my tub from an ill-advised body lift I installed when I was a poor college student, I don't like making ANY modifications to the frame or body tub that require cutting or welding. It's too much of a hassle to fix, and I assume the frame is engineered a specific way for a reason.
Thanks for the pics of the flex. I'm definitely going the shorter shock route now. Also if anyone wants a pair of 4-6" lift Bilstein 5100 shocks with about 500 miles on them at a discounted price, I'm your guy.
Where are you located. Do you have compressed and extended measurements for the shocks. Just so happens I'm looking for shocks. Mine are limiting my droop.
With the Jeep just sitting, measure the distance between upper and lower mount points, call it MD. Now measure the gap between the bump stop and the axle, call it BD. Buy a shock with a collapsed length of MD-BS-1/2". The 1/2" is to ensure the shock doesn't bottom out before the bump stop hits. The droop is just what it is. If you want more droop, move the bump stops further apart and measure again.
Dude... I know you're over this welding stuff... but you really paid someone to do those booger welds for you?
Drive up here and we'll get you welded up properly. Buy me some Dr Pepper. I've got the proper angle finder to get the pinion angle set right.
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