Possible Fuel Issue, Stalling... - JeepForum.com
 12Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 21 Old 01-16-2020, 04:24 PM Thread Starter
GrtLksMarlin
Registered User
1997 ZJ 
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Hell
Posts: 95
Possible Fuel Issue, Stalling...

1999 XJ 4.0 Auto 4x4 190k-miles: Stalling issue... I believe fuel

Situation: We had heavy rains, the vehicle's fuel fill pipe is loose from cap (pipe rusted last inch to cap mount and is open, yet previously caused no issue), next day the vehicle begins to stumble then stall. Would restart, drive a short distance (half-mile), repeat. When it died (would not restart) added 5 gallons of fuel plus 2 bottles of dry-gas. Ran for 30 miles fine. Sat overnight, ran for 3 miles stalled again, cannot be restarted. Starts, then stumbles and dies in three seconds.
* I can hear the fuel pump start up.
* I 'believe' baffles in tank are rotted... although, at times they seem not to be (with low fuel a hard turn to left kills engine... other times, not)
* Local fuel is notoriously dirty.
* Recently reworked all of my grounds and wiring, including neutral safety switch and ignition switch, all with success.
* New battery, new starter, new alternator, new battery cables... seems to have no 'obvious' electrical issues.

Any thoughts as to what this might be or where I should investigate as a next step? I'll dump more fuel in it and see if i can get it home, then be checking back here.

Thanks for your help!

B.E.F.

GrtLksMarlin is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 21 Old 01-16-2020, 05:16 PM
jtec
Web Wheeler
 
jtec's Avatar
2014 JK Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 7,204
a rusted fuel filler has me wondering- are there any EVAP codes?


Are there ANY codes? is CEL on and does it come [email protected] every start.

As for fuel concerns- check fuel pressure post PSI.

Starts for 3seconds - is there a security light on in dash display? SKIS was an option this year.
GrtLksMarlin likes this.

When I see the price of OEM I think aftermarket.
When I see the quality of aftermarket I think OEM.
jtec is offline  
post #3 of 21 Old 01-16-2020, 05:32 PM
CJ7-Tim
Real Jeeps have dents
 
CJ7-Tim's Avatar
2000 XJ Cherokee 
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: out in the garage - Minneapolis
Posts: 27,825
Fix all known broken or malfunction parts/systems. You cannot properly diagnose a malfunction when you have other issues complicating the diagnostics.


As suggested the first thing to check is the fuel pressure. Engine bay or fuel pump wire harness or wire plugs issues may cause stalling on turns, I do not know of any "baffles " in the Cherokee gas tank.

Are all the tune-up parts fresh ? Test the coil. As already mentioned does the Jeep have the optional factory installed anti-theft system, or any aftermarket remote start or anti-theft ?
GrtLksMarlin likes this.

.
“When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the Republic.”

- Benjamin Franklin
CJ7-Tim is offline  
 
post #4 of 21 Old 01-16-2020, 06:34 PM Thread Starter
GrtLksMarlin
Registered User
1997 ZJ 
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Hell
Posts: 95
Thanks jtec and Tim for responding;

First off: So, it had 1/4 tank of fuel, I added 2-gallons bringing it up to just below 3/8 and it started and ran enough to get it home. I did feel a minor stumble or two, yet otherwise, severely weaving the vehicle, braking, and accelerating, I had no issue.

With that in mind, what might cause it to have trouble when the fuel is below a certain point? As said, at one time I 'thought' I had baffle issues. But, for six months now 'that issue' seems to have vanished (hard left causing a stall). As a side note, we have some 'borrowers of fuel' around here, so i routinely for years have kept it at 1/4 tank, running it till empty, then back up to 1/4 since it keeps them at bay. The jeep is ONLY used to run our dogs daily out on state land in the woods and swamps for 20-years now. 15-miles round trip 2x a day. So, you can imagine it has acquired some aromatic seasoning and that's all it is used for. I'd prefer not to make my hunting/fishing jeep into the dog jeep. Plus, with all the repairs (including the entire cooling system and brakes and lines), I'd rather not bail on it.

As to codes, I'll need to do a manual check (and determine how) or take it up somewhere tomorrow.

EDIT: Manual check for codes (key on with odometer depressed, 000-999) yielded nothing except a readout of mileage.

CEL is constant for 3-years, but, I believe that's the O2 sensor(?) near the cat. converter where I had some welding done. PSI unsure, I could check that with a rental gauge if you still think considering the above it's worth while. there is no anti-theft on the vehicle, we've owned it since new (which means nothing, we may just have never used it). No remote start. The ignition components (plugs, wires, cap... not coil) are all new and have few miles on them. As far as the leaky fill pipe, though I plan on fixing it, it's run like this for 6-months or more as is, so I haven't really sweat it (though may be discovering my error in laziness).

With the new information regarding bringing up the fuel level, does that narrow down the problem at all, or not really?

Thanks for your help.

B.E.F.
GrtLksMarlin is offline  
post #5 of 21 Old 01-16-2020, 07:22 PM
jtec
Web Wheeler
 
jtec's Avatar
2014 JK Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 7,204
if the CEL is on stop at one of the auto part stores that do FREE scans, copy down any codes and post them here.
GrtLksMarlin likes this.

When I see the price of OEM I think aftermarket.
When I see the quality of aftermarket I think OEM.
jtec is offline  
post #6 of 21 Old 01-16-2020, 08:18 PM Thread Starter
GrtLksMarlin
Registered User
1997 ZJ 
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Hell
Posts: 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtec View Post
if the CEL is on stop at one of the auto part stores that do FREE scans, copy down any codes and post them here.
Will do, and will rent a fuel gauge to check that, then post here. Thanks!

B.E.F.
GrtLksMarlin is offline  
post #7 of 21 Old 01-25-2020, 11:29 AM Thread Starter
GrtLksMarlin
Registered User
1997 ZJ 
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Hell
Posts: 95
I was finally able to get those tests done, here are the results;

Codes thrown are:
P0443: P0443 (M) Evap Purge Solenoid Circuit An open or shorted condition detected in the EVAP purge solenoid control circuit.
P0645: P0645 A/C Clutch Relay Circuit An open or shorted condition detected in the A/C clutch relay control circuit.
**One version of testing threw one code and the other threw a different one:
**P0700: P0700 EATX Controller DTC Present This SBEC III or JTEC DTC indicates that the EATX or Asin controller has an active fault and has illuminated the MIL via a CCD (EATX) or SCI (Aisin) message. The specific fault must be acquired from the EATX via CCD or from the Aisin via ISO-9141.
**P0705: (no code list remark, this is from unit): Transmission Range Sensor Circuit
P1491: P1491 Rad Fan Control Relay Circuit An open or shorted condition detected in the radiator fan control relay control circuit. This includes PWM solid state relays.

Fuel system test performed from manual;
Pressure Test (running): Cold, roughly 48-psi., after running till at operating temp., at idle the needle bounces between 40-50. Even minimal throttle steadies the needle at 48.
Capacity test: Less than the 1/4-liter/7-seconds noted in the manual. Perhaps 1/8+/-
Leak Down Test: bleeds down in 'pulses' from 48psi at pump start to roughly 5psi.
Time to reach pressure 48 psi: 1-2 seconds, pump shuts off (as it should) then pulses down steadily.

I did not perform relay, pump amperage draw or injector tests.

Here's the odd (usual BS) thing. Whereas before the vehicle would run/drive perhaps 2 miles over 4/5 minutes, when testing it ran for a solid 30 minutes, with throttle boosts on occasion. So, I drove it up and down the road perhaps a mile, still it didn't die. During all of it i left the fuel gauge connected and watched it. It continued to flutter through first gear, yet when it shifted to second the needle stabilized at roughly 48 psi. 1st gear it bounced between 40-50 continuously and rapidly.

So, uh, duh... now what? Any ideas?

B.E.F.
GrtLksMarlin is offline  
post #8 of 21 Old 01-25-2020, 11:48 AM
CJ7-Tim
Real Jeeps have dents
 
CJ7-Tim's Avatar
2000 XJ Cherokee 
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: out in the garage - Minneapolis
Posts: 27,825
The fuel pressure should read 49 psi, plus or minus 5 psi (FSM specification).


None of the trouble codes point to a well known specific issues, but note that all them mention a possible short circuit. I would suspect short circuits or open circuits that are causing bad data to be sent to the PCM, or that they are shorting out the PCM. The P0700 is generic trouble code and will go away by itself when the P0705 is solved.

The low fuel capacity test makes the fuel pump suspect. I would solve the trouble codes and see if the stalling persists before I would install a new fuel pump.
GrtLksMarlin likes this.

.
“When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the Republic.”

- Benjamin Franklin
CJ7-Tim is offline  
post #9 of 21 Old 01-25-2020, 01:58 PM
jtec
Web Wheeler
 
jtec's Avatar
2014 JK Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 7,204
I do not see a p0705 - can you confirm that is correct #

Your issue is intermittent stalling ? and AC issue, the evap we can address if a pump is needed.

if anyway near good condition body rust wise XJ's are keepers.
GrtLksMarlin likes this.

When I see the price of OEM I think aftermarket.
When I see the quality of aftermarket I think OEM.
jtec is offline  
post #10 of 21 Old 01-25-2020, 02:32 PM Thread Starter
GrtLksMarlin
Registered User
1997 ZJ 
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Hell
Posts: 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtec View Post
I do not see a p0705 - can you confirm that is correct #

Your issue is intermittent stalling ? and AC issue, the evap we can address if a pump is needed.

if anyway near good condition body rust wise XJ's are keepers.
There are a pair of test functions types in the code analyzer: Global OBD2 and Jeep OEM Enhanced. One had three codes thrown, the other four (which i can't recall. If it matters, I could check it again. I believe the 645 code was the variable (listed on one, not the other), the 700 and 705 codes with one or the other.

What's odd is the AC clutch works as it should, though I never use it. The electric fan code (443), I'm not too worried about either, the vehicle always stays cool, 180F max by the dash gauge, so, I'd guess 180-190... but with each if there is a short I need to correct it (perhaps disconnect them).

I suppose, the big issue would be if any of these might be affecting the controller and causing this stalling issue.

I drove it another 5 miles, letting it idle another 20 minutes, and nothing. Perhaps it just took that water issue that long to sort out?

B.E.F.
GrtLksMarlin is offline  
post #11 of 21 Old 01-25-2020, 02:44 PM
CJ7-Tim
Real Jeeps have dents
 
CJ7-Tim's Avatar
2000 XJ Cherokee 
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: out in the garage - Minneapolis
Posts: 27,825
Water in the fuel or not, known maintenance issues, and the malfunctions indicated by the trouble codes really should be fixed.
GrtLksMarlin likes this.

.
“When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the Republic.”

- Benjamin Franklin
CJ7-Tim is offline  
post #12 of 21 Old 01-25-2020, 03:16 PM
jtec
Web Wheeler
 
jtec's Avatar
2014 JK Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 7,204
this is a 1999 jeep Cherokee XJ 4.0L -

the codes are all common EXCEPT P0705. this is my concern as it does not appear in my quick list, nor from memory. HOMEWORK

ECT of @180 is wrong- too low, no p1281 interesting but not critical.
The EVAP issue P0443 hopefully a fuse or unplugged purge.
Same for the fan - might want to check that

any chance you have a remote starter?
GrtLksMarlin likes this.

When I see the price of OEM I think aftermarket.
When I see the quality of aftermarket I think OEM.
jtec is offline  
post #13 of 21 Old 01-25-2020, 03:35 PM
jtec
Web Wheeler
 
jtec's Avatar
2014 JK Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 7,204
Why I had to get out the book IDK - but FYI

P0705 (4.0L L6 VIN S Auto) A/T Check Shifter Signal Circuit Malfunction

Number of Trips to Set Code: 1

Trouble Code Conditions:
Key on or engine running; and the PCM detected at least three occurrences of an invalid TR Sensor PRNDL signal for over 100 ms.

Possible Causes:

TR1, T3, T41 or T42 sense circuit is open

TR1, T3, T41 or T42 sense circuit is shorted to ground

TR1, T3, T41 or T42 Sensor circuit is shorted to system power

Transmission Range Sensor is damaged or has failed

PCM has failed
GrtLksMarlin likes this.

When I see the price of OEM I think aftermarket.
When I see the quality of aftermarket I think OEM.
jtec is offline  
post #14 of 21 Old 01-25-2020, 07:11 PM Thread Starter
GrtLksMarlin
Registered User
1997 ZJ 
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Hell
Posts: 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtec View Post
this is a 1999 jeep Cherokee XJ 4.0L -

any chance you have a remote starter?
No remote starter.




Quote:
Originally Posted by jtec View Post
Why I had to get out the book IDK - but FYI

P0705 (4.0L L6 VIN S Auto) A/T Check Shifter Signal Circuit Malfunction

Number of Trips to Set Code: 1

Trouble Code Conditions:
Key on or engine running; and the PCM detected at least three occurrences of an invalid TR Sensor PRNDL signal for over 100 ms.

Possible Causes:

TR1, T3, T41 or T42 sense circuit is open

TR1, T3, T41 or T42 sense circuit is shorted to ground

TR1, T3, T41 or T42 Sensor circuit is shorted to system power

Transmission Range Sensor is damaged or has failed

PCM has failed
I did mention that I had a number of previous electrical issues. One of being (or so I thought but was wrong) a neutral safety switch, which I rebuilt anyway. I thought it was the starter, alt., battery, wiring, NSS, all fixed or replaced. Ultimately, it was the start tang in the key lock assembly... grrr.

Since I've cleared the codes and driven it todaySo, I'm going to recheck it right now... seriously, right now, brb!

So, the codes at first were the same, with the OBD2 version throwing a 1492, a 705 saved, and 705 pending. Jeep enhanced threw 1492, 443, 645, and a 700.

Cleared them, restarted it, and ran it through the gears.
OBD threw just 2 705s (saved/logged, pending)
JE threw 705s as well (saved/logged, pending)


Tomorrow, I'll try this (once i can find the TCM) and see if that resolves the 705 issue:
TRANSMISSION CONTROL MODULE (TCM)
The module determines shift and converter clutch
engagement timing based on signals from sensors.
The valve body solenoids are activated, or deactivated
accordingly.
The TCM has a self diagnostic program. Component
and circuitry malfunctions can be diagnosed
with the DRB scan tool. Once a malfunction is noted
and stored in control module memory, it is retained
even after the problem has been corrected. To cancel
a stored malfunction, disconnect and reconnect the
"Trans." fuse in the module harness.



? Thanks for the help fellas,

B.E.F.
GrtLksMarlin is offline  
post #15 of 21 Old 01-26-2020, 08:09 AM
jtec
Web Wheeler
 
jtec's Avatar
2014 JK Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 7,204
SWAG - A thought, inspect the ignition switch electrical portion - looking for possible over heat, bad contacts damaged connectors etc ... Its Sunday, will follow up time permitting
GrtLksMarlin likes this.

When I see the price of OEM I think aftermarket.
When I see the quality of aftermarket I think OEM.
jtec is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the JeepForum.com forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid e-mail address for yourself.



Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome