99 Cherokee Sport 4.0 Starter clicks, does not turn over, ignition issues? - Page 2 - JeepForum.com
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #16 of 38 Old 02-13-2015, 06:21 AM
CJ7-Tim
Real Jeeps have dents
 
CJ7-Tim's Avatar
2000 XJ Cherokee 
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: out in the garage - Minneapolis
Posts: 27,760
Checked this yet ?
• dirty, corroded, or loose battery/starter/alternator wire connections
• internally corroded battery wires


.

A recent Gallup public opinion poll shows the NRA, at 58% approval, has a higher approval rating than either Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama.

Progressive Liberalism: Bringing you new Healthcare ideas so wonderful, they have to include mandatory participation ...

Originally Posted by Ronald W. Reagan: Government is not the solution to our problems; Government is the problem.
CJ7-Tim is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #17 of 38 Old 02-13-2015, 02:22 PM Thread Starter
pdxjohn
Registered User
1999 XJ Cherokee 
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Portland
Posts: 27
CJ7-Tim ... I went through those back in December, but will be taking the ignition switch and relay box on today and will continue the search. Also, is there a way to test the "computer" on this without pulling it out? Other than that, I can't even imagine where else to look. Just to recap, when I turn the key to start, there is a single, solid click like the bendix gear kicking out, but the starter motor does not run.

Thanks for all the help so far!

John

you just need a bigger hammer
pdxjohn is offline  
post #18 of 38 Old 02-13-2015, 04:02 PM Thread Starter
pdxjohn
Registered User
1999 XJ Cherokee 
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Portland
Posts: 27
Update: Captain's log, Stardate 2/14/2015

After pulling grounds and cleaning them up a bit (they looked really go to start with)
I am now able to jump the starter by putting the key into the on position and bridging the connection between the solenoid and the hot connection.
It cranks, I smell fresh fuel hitting the system, but it does not seem to be getting spark.
I had a similar condition about 8 years ago: I removed the NSS, rebuilt, packed with lithium grease and re-installed. Nada. I replaced the ignition switch and it worked again.

So I am looking at two issues that are most likely separate, but maybe not:

1. Can't engage starter with key
2. No spark to start ignition

What are the relationships to these two things?

Thanks

John

you just need a bigger hammer
pdxjohn is offline  
 
post #19 of 38 Old 02-13-2015, 04:21 PM
CJ7-Tim
Real Jeeps have dents
 
CJ7-Tim's Avatar
2000 XJ Cherokee 
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: out in the garage - Minneapolis
Posts: 27,760
The ignition switch.

Also check the ignition switch pin. The Neon and XJ use the same ignition pin.

.

A recent Gallup public opinion poll shows the NRA, at 58% approval, has a higher approval rating than either Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama.

Progressive Liberalism: Bringing you new Healthcare ideas so wonderful, they have to include mandatory participation ...

Originally Posted by Ronald W. Reagan: Government is not the solution to our problems; Government is the problem.
CJ7-Tim is offline  
post #20 of 38 Old 02-13-2015, 05:41 PM Thread Starter
pdxjohn
Registered User
1999 XJ Cherokee 
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Portland
Posts: 27
Good video! Thanks! I removed the ignition switch from the column and was easily able to use the key to engage the starter and get the engine cranking... now for problem number 2. No ignition spark.
Is there something in the column that needs to be engaged to get spark to the cylinders? Ignition switch pin?

you just need a bigger hammer
pdxjohn is offline  
post #21 of 38 Old 02-13-2015, 06:19 PM
CJ7-Tim
Real Jeeps have dents
 
CJ7-Tim's Avatar
2000 XJ Cherokee 
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: out in the garage - Minneapolis
Posts: 27,760
If the starter works, and the engine does not run, you need to confirm fuel delivery to the fuel rail. Checking the fuel pressure is normal diagnostics.

If the starter works, you have fuel delivery, and the engein does not run, the CPS may have failed. Testing the CPS is simple and needs to be tested to rule it in/out as the cause of the no-start.

The most likely cause of it cranks and cranks but won't start up is the Crankshaft Position Sensor (CPS) located on the transmission bell housing. Often this part is also referred to as the CranKshaft Position Sensor (CKP). CPS/CKP failure is very common. The CPS/CKP can stop working with no warning or symptoms and the engine will not run or the engine may randomly stall for no apparent reason.
Crank Position Sensors can have intermittent “thermal failure”. This means that the CPS/CKP fails when engine gets hot, but works again when it cools back down.

Symptoms-
- Starter cranks and cranks but engine won't start up
- Fuel gauge and voltage gauges may not work or display properly.
- You sometimes will have NoBus displayed on the odometer after 30-60 seconds.
- A failed CPS/CKP may or may not throw a CEL trouble code.
- No spark at the sparkplugs.
- Fuel pump should run and prime for 3-5 seconds.

If the CPS/CKP is failed sometimes the OBD-II code reader cannot make a connection to the computer or cannot read Check Engine Light/MIL codes because the CPS/CKP has failed.

Diagnostic steps to confirm the CPS is the cause of your no-start:

-You should be able to verify a bad cps, by unplugging it, and turning the ignition key to ON. If the voltage gauge and/or the fuel gauge now displays correctly, replace the CPS.
-Unplugging and reconnecting the CPS sensor where it connect to the main harness near the back of the intake manifold usually resets the ECU and if the jeep fires right up after doing this you can bet that the CPS is faulty and needs to be replaced.
-Exchange the fuel pump relay and the ASD relay with one of the other similar ones in the PDC to eliminate these relays as the cause of the no-start. Confirm that the fuel pump runs for 3-5 seconds when you turn the ignition key to ON.
-Eliminate the NSS as a cause of no start. Wiggle the shift lever at the same time you try to start. Put the transmission in Neutral and do the same. Do the reverse lights come on when the shifter is in Reverse?
-Inspect the wires and wire connectors at the O2 sensors on the exhausts pipe. A short circuit from melted insulation or from broken O2 sensor wires can blow a fuse and the ECU/ECM will lose communication.

If you buy a new CPS, get a genuine Jeep CPS, or the premium one from NAPA. Cheap crappy “Lifetime Warranty” parts are often out of specification or even failed right out of the box. They usually also have a shorter service life than better quality parts. Buy good quality repair parts and genuine Jeep sensors for best results.
You must also perform basic trouble shooting of the start and charge systems. Remove, clean, and firmly reconnect all the wires and cables to the battery, starter, and alternator. Look for corroded or damaged cables and replace as needed. Do the same for the grounding wires from the battery and engine to the Cherokee's frame/body. Jeeps do not tolerate low voltage or poor grounds and the ECM/ECU will behave oddly until you remedy this.

Crankshaft Position Sensor Connector (CPS/CKP)
.

.

CPS Testing
TESTING PROCEDURE 1991 –2001 4.0L H.O. engines
1. Near the rear of intake manifold, disconnect sensor pigtail harness connector from main wiring harness.
2. Place an ohmmeter across terminals B and C (See Image). Ohmmeter should be set to the 10K-or-2OK scale for this test.
3. The meter reading should be open (infinite resistance). Replace sensor if a low resistance is indicated.

TESTING PROCEDURE for 1987 –1990 4.0 L engines
Test # 1 - Get a volt/ohmmeter and set it to read 0 - 500 ohms. Unplug the CPS and measure across the CPS connector's A & B leads. Your meter should show a CPS resistance of between 125 - 275 ohms. If the CPS is out of that range by much, replace it.
Test # 2 - You'll need a helper for this one. Set the volt/ohm meter to read 0 - 5 AC volts or the closest AC Volts scale your meter has to this range. Measure across the CPS leads for voltage generated as your helper cranks the engine. ( The engine can't fire up without the CPS connected but watch for moving parts just the same ! ) The meter should show .5 - .8 VAC when cranking. (That's between 1/2 and 1 volt AC.) If it's below .5vac, replace it.

The 2000 and 2001 will have the CPS in the same location on the bell housing, but the wire connector is on the passenger side, near or on top of the Transfer case, not as shown in the diagram below. Simply follow the wire from the sensor to the wire connector.
.

.

A recent Gallup public opinion poll shows the NRA, at 58% approval, has a higher approval rating than either Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama.

Progressive Liberalism: Bringing you new Healthcare ideas so wonderful, they have to include mandatory participation ...

Originally Posted by Ronald W. Reagan: Government is not the solution to our problems; Government is the problem.
CJ7-Tim is offline  
post #22 of 38 Old 02-13-2015, 06:54 PM Thread Starter
pdxjohn
Registered User
1999 XJ Cherokee 
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Portland
Posts: 27
Starter now works, engine cranks, I smell fresh fuel, hear the pump prime up, no start. CPS was installed 2 days ago. Of course it could be bad, but I'm going to check the relays.
I tried unplugging the CPS and then plugging it back in again. No change.

Are there also fuses and relays on the inside kick panel fuse box that I might want to check out?

I suppose at this point I might want to upgrade my membership eh? :-)

you just need a bigger hammer
pdxjohn is offline  
post #23 of 38 Old 02-13-2015, 09:17 PM Thread Starter
pdxjohn
Registered User
1999 XJ Cherokee 
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Portland
Posts: 27
Any chance it needs a new CAM-shaft position sensor? Also... is it remotely possible that this vehicle has some sort of passive shutdown system like vehicles with alarms do?

Also... I am perfectly willing to mail out a superman t-shirt to whoever solves this darned riddle. We have already missed a week of amazing weather with me messing with this issue.

Thanks

John

you just need a bigger hammer
pdxjohn is offline  
post #24 of 38 Old 02-14-2015, 08:58 AM
CJ7-Tim
Real Jeeps have dents
 
CJ7-Tim's Avatar
2000 XJ Cherokee 
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: out in the garage - Minneapolis
Posts: 27,760
Did you buy a genuine Jeep CPS, of some crappy Chinese "Lifetime Warranty" CPS ?

Proper diagnostics is a logical and methodical testing/evaluation of most common and most likely causes of the symptoms. Inspecting/testing of all the fuses and relays is always a good place to start. The Cam sensor may be the cause of the symptoms, but you still have to start with the most common and likely suspect, the CPS. You need to test the CPS and test/inspect its wire harness.

.

A recent Gallup public opinion poll shows the NRA, at 58% approval, has a higher approval rating than either Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama.

Progressive Liberalism: Bringing you new Healthcare ideas so wonderful, they have to include mandatory participation ...

Originally Posted by Ronald W. Reagan: Government is not the solution to our problems; Government is the problem.
CJ7-Tim is offline  
post #25 of 38 Old 02-14-2015, 11:30 AM
CosmicRhino
Registered User
1995 XJ Cherokee 
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Boise
Posts: 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxjohn View Post
Thank you CosmicRhino!

I pulled the starter and had it tested. It was working but in the low end, so they warrantied it with one that I watch them test. Put that in and no change. I am leaning toward the ignition and will be buying a multi-meter tomorrow. The other issue that has been suggested is in the wiring from the relays, so I will trace that as well as the ignition switch.

The fun never ends... thank goodness it was 60 degree here today in Portland! I'm dying to get this back on the road.
I hear you! We've been having similar weather in Boise. I was off the trails for a week because of a bad ground, that took me a week to discover. Without a multimeter I would have replaced the crank position sensor, the battery, my cables, my alternator... All to have found that it was just one bad ground wire causing all of the problems. Was killing me while the sun was out! At least it has been pleasant to work on the Jeep outdoors in early/mid February?!

Additionally, I'd like to stress this specific detail of CJ7-Tim's write up on the CPS:

You must also perform basic trouble shooting of the start and charge systems. Remove, clean, and firmly reconnect all the wires and cables to the battery, starter, and alternator. Look for corroded or damaged cables and replace as needed. Do the same for the grounding wires from the battery and engine to the Cherokee's frame/body.

This was exactly the issue I was having a couple of weeks ago. I had symptoms that made me think CPS, like functioning starter that cranks and cranks but weak or no start, but there were other odd things going on.

When I tested pressure at the rail, I had under 5 psi. Fuel was just dribbling out. No way the engine was going to stay running with that little pressure (you want ~40 psi ideally).

I was having other odd electrical issues prior to start, as well. If I had my key turned to aux electronics on, my gauges would read out correctly - until I pushed my brake pedal or turned on my headlights, at which point all of my gauges would lose power. I knew my battery and alternator were fine, because I tested them with my multi meter. CPS checked out too, although I've heard that testing with an ohm meter for infinite resistance isn't exactly applicable for a solid state crank position sensor?

All this to say, check and double check your grounds to the jeep body and frame. Those in the engine compartment get nasty. My problem ground was actually behind the driver rear quarter panel. Previous owner had obviously already had problems with it, as they had spliced a new ground directly to the chassis, totally exposed to the elements, nasty as all hell. Wiggled it a bit and all of my problems went away. Took off the quarter panel and grounded properly. This one ground had the capability to effect my dash gauges, fuel pump, etc.

Hunting electrical gremlins can seem like black magic, but a multimeter and a circuit diagram take a healthy chunk of the guesswork out of it.

Last edited by CosmicRhino; 02-14-2015 at 11:47 AM.
CosmicRhino is offline  
post #26 of 38 Old 02-15-2015, 01:26 AM Thread Starter
pdxjohn
Registered User
1999 XJ Cherokee 
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Portland
Posts: 27
CJ7-Tim ...um yes, I did buy the Autozone version of the CPS :-( .. But it is a US made Duralast and I now have a meter though so I will start from the top and see what wiring does not work out.

CosmicRhino - Grounds, the Cam sensor and maybe some random ghosts are all I have left. What would you recommend as a good wiring diagram to follow that clearly identifies the harnesses as well.

Thanks!

John

you just need a bigger hammer
pdxjohn is offline  
post #27 of 38 Old 02-15-2015, 11:34 AM
CosmicRhino
Registered User
1995 XJ Cherokee 
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Boise
Posts: 9
I hear Chilton manuals are helpful for this kind of thing? To be honest, I've never owned one because I'm spoiled enough to be surrounded by mechanics that already know everything there is to know about the vehicles I own.

Well pdxjohn, this is all I've got on my computer that might be relevant...

https://www.jeepforum.com/forum/attac...1&d=1424021505

^I know there isn't an arrow B in that picture, but just imagine it's there, pointing in from the rear of the block behind the oil filter, against the firewall.

https://www.jeepforum.com/forum/attac...1&d=1424021505

^View in from arrow A

https://www.jeepforum.com/forum/attac...1&d=1424021505

^View in from imaginary arrow B

https://www.jeepforum.com/forum/attac...1&d=1424021505

^Starter solenoid ground, could very well be your problem ground if the solenoid tests good. The "click" starter issue makes me think solenoid, or solenoid circuit.

Also occurred to me you could try bypassing the engine starter motor relay with a bit of wire from the battery and see if that fixes your problem. Also have you cleaned all of your fuses yet with a brass bristle brush?
https://www.jeepforum.com/forum/attac...1&d=1424021505

^Fuse diagram, see 'engine starter motor relay'
Attached Thumbnails
Electrical_Engine_Ground_Points_Overview.jpg   Electrical_Engine_Ground_Points_Arrrow_B.jpg   starter solenoid ground.jpg   engine starter motor relay.jpg  
Attached Images
 
CosmicRhino is offline  
post #28 of 38 Old 02-15-2015, 02:18 PM Thread Starter
pdxjohn
Registered User
1999 XJ Cherokee 
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Portland
Posts: 27
You just saved me a ton of searching CosmicRhino! Thanks! If you are a fan of the suds, I owe you a beer.. otherwise, maybe a cup of Portland style, single origin, hand crafted Malaysian java, cold pressed and served in a locally made, lead free mug.

John

you just need a bigger hammer
pdxjohn is offline  
post #29 of 38 Old 02-15-2015, 05:05 PM Thread Starter
pdxjohn
Registered User
1999 XJ Cherokee 
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Portland
Posts: 27
OK... I have removed, cleaned, emery papered and buffed all the engine compartment grounds and added one more from the battery to the front radiator bar. They all show no resistance.
I bypassed the NSS (jumped a thin bundle of copper wire between the bottom two pinholes on the harness) with no change.
I removed the hot leads from the battery, removed the cable connecter, cleaned and rebuilt.
The CPS tests good. Battery gauge says 12v.
I was able to do a gauge test (turn key to on position while holding in the trip reset button) and got a check engine light when it was done, so there is a code to address.
Is there a key trick to get the code from the ecm without a reader on the Cherokee Sports?
Starter, alternator, coil, rotor, cap and wires brand new.
Switched around ASD, Fuel Pump and Starter relays. No change.

From what I have read, the cam position sensor will not stop the vehicle from starting when and "if" it fails, but may make it run rough.

Maybe Karma did all this to prevent us from jumping in the Jeep and heading to the coast this weekend where we would have been caught in a sneaker wave and washed out to sea. (must be it)
Pardon my humor... I'm getting punch drunk on this problem.

Key Trick to pull trouble codes anyone?

John

added note: I just caught the part where CosmicRhino found a bad ground in the rear quarter panel. This would actually affect an issue like mine? Wow.. guess I'm checking now!
new note: Check that off the list. took about 3 minutes and those grounds are clear and untouched. Any other hidden grounds?

you just need a bigger hammer

Last edited by pdxjohn; 02-15-2015 at 05:46 PM.
pdxjohn is offline  
post #30 of 38 Old 02-15-2015, 09:01 PM
FairlanePhil
Registered User
 
FairlanePhil's Avatar
1999 XJ Cherokee 
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Toledo Ohio
Posts: 3,188
I don't think a 99 will do a keyed code listing.

Current: 99XJ 6.5 lift-Bought 2015
Sold: Patriot Blue 00 XJ.
'sploded: 01 stock-0331 head victim
FairlanePhil is offline  
Reply

Tags
grounds , ignition , starter issue

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the JeepForum.com forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid e-mail address for yourself.



Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome