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Death Wobble Cured...

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233K views 37 replies 24 participants last post by  The_Ikon  
#1 · (Edited)
Well guys after about 5 months of searching for answers for Death Wobble I think (time will tell if it comes back) I have found some answers. This information is MAINLY for LIFTED Jeeps, but I will add some more information for all the stock guys with death wobble too.

The Reason:

I found some Jeep enthusiasts here locally that had done a lot of coil spring conversions on Wranglers and on Cherokees. They said they have had Death Wobble on the Cherokees almost every time they did a coil spring conversion. The reason they discovered for the Death Wobble is that the drag link on Wranglers comes from the pitman arm down to the left front hub and then from the left front hub straight over to the right front hub. This is a strong link geometrically. Unfortunately on the Grand Cherokee's and Cherokee's they used a different link system... the drag link drops from the pitman arm straight down to the front left hub, but instead of the second arm attaching at the left hub and going to the right hub they attached the second arm in the middle of the first arm so you have this triangular type figure created. The problem with this setup is when you start lifting the Jeep with a Budget Boost the front axle is pushed down and since the trailing arms arent replaced the axle is actually pushed backwards. This change to the axle position changes the geometry of the actual steering setup and starts allowing for more and more play. This is why it seems that GC's with budget boosts are more susceptible to DW. This is also the reason why guys with taller lifts will many times never see DW on their Jeeps. If you get taller lifts that come with drop pitman arms then many times you wont have DW because you have returned the geometry on the drag link back to an angle that will not allow for very much play in the steering.

Other reasons that DW can be formed are:

The Steering Stabilizer is shot and causes the steering not to be tight enough

The Track Bar is bent which allows for a little bit of movement in the axle

The tires are warped or the alignment is messed up

There are some bushings on the front end somewhere that is allowing for some play.

**The things listed above can happen with or without lifting the vehicle. **



Now for some Solutions:

Everyone should start with the steering stabilizer I would say. It is only around $60 bucks for a good one from Rancho or Old Man Emu. If that does not cure the problem then I would IMMEDIATELY go to an Offroad Equipment shop. Walk into the shop and point at your vehicle and say Death Wobble. If they start laughing and know exactly what you mean then you are at the right place if they look confused and don't have a clue then you are in the wrong place. Once you find a shop that knows what Death Wobble is then you need to talk to them and they will tell you a lot of what I have told you here. Then ask them where they have taken their trucks to get aligned after they are lifted. Most alignment shops don't have a clue except for "factory specs"... if you can find a shop that knows how suspension really works then they know all the tricks for maxing out every centimeter to get your vehicle fully aligned. Normally the alignment shops that do the alignments for offroad shops will know exactly what DW is and be able to check everything for you. Many times... find the problem.

Now as far as specifics go... if you have a 2" budget boost then you need to make sure they roll the caster back to around -6.00 to -9.00. Since your axle has been pushed down and slightly backwards then you need to get it pushed forwards at least as far as the factory position or even further forward. This should be possible with a 2" budget boost, but if you have something taller then you might need even more caster. Anyways... a good alignment shop should be able to tell this... a lot of "normal" alignment shops just try and move it back to the factory spec when you are going to need more than that to compensate for the lift.

Basically... if you have DW, it can be fixed. It is normally a combination of several of the things I mentioned. My particular problem was the Track Bar, Tires, and Alignment problems because of my budget boost. I did buy Kevin's Track Bar Conversion which was great and did add some stability, but was not my total solution in the end. I also bought a OME steering stabilizer which helped make the steering tighter but did not solve the problem either.

The key is to find a shop that knows suspension and knows what DW is. From there... you WILL find a solution.

Jeremy

P.S. I know it is long, but hopefully it helps. There might be more info from other people's experience to add here, but this is what I have discovered in my journey towards Death Wobble Recovery.
 
#2 ·
Jeremy,

ask WVD to have this posted in the faq section. Great info.

Hunter
 
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#35 ·
i know its a big bump but i saw this in the top crawled section and thought since i had death wobble and a few others right now it would help out... and to laugh at JF members....:hahaha:

hunter pre moderator????:laugh:


blaine when he had no clue....:rofl:
Does someone want to expalin exactly what Death Wobble is and exactly how often it happens... If I plain on getting a 2" BB should I just go ahead and get a OME stabilzer at the same time?
 
#6 ·
Jeremy,
I echo everyone's comments. I too am soon going to do an intermediate lift and your insight is invaluable!
Thanks for looking out for us!
Phil :thumbsup:
 
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#7 · (Edited)
Thanks for putting that into words.
My old XJ had it and it was not fun at 70mph on the turnpike.
Why is it I never see any drop pittman arms for the ZJ, that sounds like it would do allot towards a cure.
Has anyone tried other pittman arms to see if they fit?
 
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#9 ·
I appreciate the thanks from everyone. I am just putting up what I have figured out from much more experienced people than myself. I will see if I cant post with in the FAQ section. Just as a note to everyone... I would say a really GOOD offroad/alignment shop will be your best friend with curing the Death Wobble.

Blaine59: If you get the BB make sure you get extended length shocks. My factory shocks were completely extended and were not preloaded so I think that helped form some of the DW problems I had. The second thing I would do after you get the BB is find a good alignment shop... tell them you have the 2" lift and that you are concerned that your alignment might be off and your caster might be off also. Tell them to try and move the caster somewhere between the -6 and -9 range. -6 is still within the "stock" specs so they should be willing to do it. If they check it and your caster is already in those ranges then you should be pretty good to go. If you take it to a shop who doesnt know anything about lifts then they will most likely take a look at your alignment and return it to whatever their "factory" specs say and not compensate for the lift.

The Steering Stabilizer is a VERY good thing to get, but it is not needed. I say it is VERY good because the Old Man Emu (OME) one I got from Kevin (Kevinsoffroad.com) is about twice as thick as the factory with a rock guard around it. My steering felt a LOT more solid afterwards. I would basically replace this only if you think your factory one is a bit on the weak side or if you think it is shot. Its kind of a pain in the *** to do because you either have to buy/rent a pitman arm puller or use a BFH to get some one of the bolts that is pressure fitted. Definitely doable on your own, but not all that much fun so wait until you need one or just wanna spend some extra money. It is worth getting eventually though.

Jeremy
 
#11 ·
Blaine59: Not a problem...

By the way, to anyone who lives in the Oklahoma City area. The offroad shop I went to here in OKC that knew all about DW was 4 Wheel Parts on N. May just north of 23rd Street. The alignment shop that fixed me up and knew a LOT about DW also was Jackie Cooper Tire and Electronics on NW Expressway and 63rd Street.

To everyone else not in OKC... 4 Wheel Parts is a very big chain of offroad stores and are in general very knowledgable. If you have one in your area you should try them first. Just point and say Death Wobble. You will know immediately by their reaction if they understand or not.

Jeremy
 
#12 ·
I have found that each time that I have had DW, I have been able to cure it by adjusting the caster alone. I lifted the ZJ in stages. 2" B/B, 3" coils, 3.5" coils plus B/B. Each time I got DW. Each time I adjusted the caster (even after an alignment) and the problem was solved. I did this on a friend's TJ experiencing DW while enroute to Tellico. Problem solved.

Worn parts will contribute to it, but caster is an often overlooked adjustment.
 
#14 ·
Very good job... I have a little to add...that might also come in handy...:thumbsup:


I used to get death wobble when I would have some loose bolt somewhere on my steering system..

The adjustable track bar didnt have a double lock nut.. Put one ... It went away..

Then the Track bar snapped the stupid bolt right in half.. So I drilled it out and used a 3/4 grade 8 and I got a set of high misalignment bushings and it went away again...

Several other things but almost always loose bolt somewhere...

Oh and Extended control arms will solve alot of the issues with the lifts...
Adjustable arms are well worth the money..
 
#15 ·
jeepholic said:
Why is it I never see any drop pittman arms for the ZJ, that sounds like it would do allot towards a cure.
Has anyone tried other pittman arms to see if they fit?
Sorry to ask again, but am I missing something?
 
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#17 ·
Here's some posts from Kevin Fell of Kevin's Off Road and Jerry Bransford, Mod JF on DW: (they're taken out of context but they have great value)

Let's talk about Death Wobble for a moment: it's the oscillation that happens when your front end components are not in near perfect alignment and are "fighting each other" or reacting to each other. Typically, you'll hit a bump with the right tire first, then the left one directly afterward (often a seam in the pavement) that will start the oscillation until you slow down to under a speed that the sine wave collapses. (Physicists: please correct my terminology if I'm using the terms incorrectly). Now, EVERY single component in the steering that is "tight" (or working in correct phase) and dampens/reduces the propogation of the sine wave is good. If things are out of phase and reacting to each other's movements, then the sine wave begins when the right/left bump combo happens during your commute. ANY COMPONENT that dampens this sine wave is helpful, so things like checking for tire over-inflation (Think about an underinflated soccer ball versus an overinflated basketball when you bounce it), replacing your steering dampener, checking rubber bushings, making sure you have a solid connection between the axle and frame (read: track bar and it's respective polyurethane and steel mounts), and correct toe-in are all things that will reduce the propogation of that sine wave.

As Jerry mentioned above, there is generally not ONE cure for DW...it's just a matter of finding the component(s) that's are putting forces on other component(s) and creating that "equal and opposite reaction" until you begin full-on Death Wobble. I've found that at stock height ZJ/WJ, 6* of caster works well, but you can run as little as 0* and still not have DW. I've found that with a larger tire contact patch (with the pavement) you have to reduce the toe-in measurement. A minuscule amount less than perfectly parallel is what we've found to be best. In my experience, 1/4" is too much, as the tires begin to "trip" over each other (visualize walking pigeon-toed). The stock ZJ calls for 3/16", and if you're dialing OUT the toe-in with a larger tire/pavement contact patch, 1/4" is the wrong direction. I'm not suggesting that every Jeep is the same...it's MOST CERTAINLY NOT...so find your own "perfect" setting by trial and error, write it down on a piece of tape inside the glovebox, and return to that setting each and every time.

It would be difficult to share with you how all of the components work and how adjustments of each item changes the ride characteristics, but bear in mind my previous statement: ANY component that reduces the action/reaction process will benefit you. This includes the poor little steering stabilizer, which people accuse of masking DW. Truly, it doesn't "mask" it...it was designed to keep the destructive sine wave from beginning, and if it's working correctly and all the other components are working happily with each other, then the chance for DW is highly reduced. For additional boring reading on this subject, there is a write-up here: http://www.kevinsoffroad.com/techarticles.html.

Happy DW-free Motoring,
Kevin
__________________
Dr. K.W. Fell
PhD. in Jeepology, School of Hard Rocks
KevinsOffroad.com

7 degrees of Caster angle is ideal but installing a suspension lift reduces that angle due to how the control arms rotate the front axle after a lift is installed. But you can't just return the amount of caster back to 7 degrees after installing a suspension lift because that produces excessive pinion angle where the u-joint connects it to the front driveshaft. And pinion angle takes precedence over Caster angle... definitely.

You can only achieve the ideal 7 degrees of caster angle after a suspension lift installation without causing excessive pinion angle by repositioning the knuckles. This involves cutting their welds and rotating them to give the desired 7 degrees and then re-welding them in their new position. However, any caster angle over about 5 to 5.5 degrees is fine, you only need "enough" caster angle and 5 to 5.5 degrees of Caster angle is more than adequate for your amount of lift height.

For the Death Wobble problem, 99% of the time it is caused by a combination of things. Most commonly, that combination is a tire being out of balance combined with the trackbar being too loose... usually its lower mounting bolt has loosened. The out of balance tire triggers the beginning of DW and the too-loose trackbar allows the DW to fully develop.

Even if loose enough to allow Death Wobble to develop, the trackbar will not usually feel loose if you just grab it with your hands so it's going to take a torque wrench to assure you that it is tight enough. My Wrangler's lower trackbar mounting bolt is torqued to 55 ft-lbs. and I would imagine yours should be too. If it's tight, your trackbar bushings might be bad but I would first check to make sure its lower mounting bolt is tight. Then get the front tires perfectly balanced. The taller the lift, the more critical perfect tire balance becomes with this kind of suspension.

Finally, make sure your toe-in is set properly. I set my own to 1/8", and you can do this on your own by following the easy instructions at http://www.4x4xplor.com/alignment.html.

So ignore your Caster angle and concentrate on a probably too-loose trackbar combined with a tire that is probably not perfectly balanced, together with insuring the toe-in is set properly.

I had SEVERE Death Wobble 7-8 years ago but since setting my Jeep up as described, DW hasn't reared its ugly head. Good luck and relax, Death Wobble IS curable.
__________________
The Geezer Jeep: http://members.cox.net/jerrypb/

Phil :thumbsup:
 
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#19 ·
Holy ancient post, Batman! You have Blaine and Phil both stating that they want to do "intermediate lifts" Blaine is talking about a BB!!! I thought they were joking around when I started reading :rofl:

Anyway, here's a good link with nice pictures. Basically the tracbar connects the axle to the unibody.

http://www.kevinsoffroad.com/tbconversion.html

Edit: I must say, it's refreshing to see a Newbie searching through the forum. A nice change of pace :teehee: Welcome! :wavey:
 
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#20 ·
This is the first time I have ever seen "Death Wobble" discussed. I truly thought that up until last week when it happend to me, it was just some odd thing no one had heard of before.

About 5 years ago, my fathers 84 chevy 1 ton dump developed this problem literally over night. The truck had never been crashed, the frame was checked repeatedly for true, and yet with the right bump always on the passenger side, you were instantly on the ole bucking bronco!
In an attempt to cure this, he ended up replacing the steering box, pitman arm, draglink, tie rod and ends, kingpins, axle shafts, axle u-joints, swaybar, steering stabilizer(s), tires, rims, leaf springs, bushings, etc. Everything we could think of. Guess what, never got rid of it. Adding an aftermarket dual steering stabilizer kit helped a little but definately did not get rid of it. He eventually sold it!

So, that was the last I heard of it. Then last week, my GC did it on a rather bumpy road that I normally don't travel. I know that I will be replacing everything when I put a lift in so I am not worried but wow, did that bring back memories. Thanks for the confidence and great topic. :2thumbsup:
 
#22 ·
jdpaysnoe said:
If that does not cure the problem then I would IMMEDIATELY go to an Offroad Equipment shop. Walk into the shop and point at your vehicle and say Death Wobble. If they start laughing and know exactly what you mean then you are at the right place if they look confused and don't have a clue then you are in the wrong place.
Super old thread but a good one. I remember searching and coming across this. Probably the funniest step in diagnosing DW :laugh: .
 
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#23 ·
Sorry if this fix was in a link that I missed but this could help someone out too. The wife’s, stock a rock, ’96 ZJ developed the DW, too. After the steering stabilizer and gear box didn’t fix it I finally found the problem. The over the axle pipe was loose as a goose and would lean over an rest on the rear sway bar causing it to lock up. Almost any kind of little bump could set off the gyrations until as a test I just drilled a hole where the intermediate pipe an tailpipe came together (the clamp wasn’t holding), put in a set screw to hold them at the right angle and all was fine. A new exhaust system came shortly after that for the permanent cure.
 
#25 ·
Gramps said:
Sorry if this fix was in a link that I missed but this could help someone out too. The wife's, stock a rock, '96 ZJ developed the DW, too. After the steering stabilizer and gear box didn't fix it I finally found the problem. The over the axle pipe was loose as a goose and would lean over an rest on the rear sway bar causing it to lock up. Almost any kind of little bump could set off the gyrations until as a test I just drilled a hole where the intermediate pipe an tailpipe came together (the clamp wasn't holding), put in a set screw to hold them at the right angle and all was fine. A new exhaust system came shortly after that for the permanent cure.
So your DW came from the exhaust hitting the rear antisway? First time I heard of that one.
 
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