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Jim's new hybrid Scrambler build- tons of questions coming!

436K views 2K replies 124 participants last post by  Jim1611 
#1 · (Edited)
Hi guys,

I've sold off my YJ with the LT1 engine and megasquirted TPI on top to help finance my Scrambler build.I'll start off to answer you first question- "Why TJ Tech Forum?" <edit>Moved now to CJ Forum</edit> Well, the hybrid Scrambler frame I had throttledowncustoms.com build for me is a hybrid with 4 corner coils and control arms- TJ style.

<edit>June 16th/2011- thread moved to CJ forum where the real round headlights live:p</edit>

I have a Aqualu Scrambler tub being delivered to my home tomorrow for it. With the rolling CJ7 I have my eye on I'll turn it into a CJ7/8 one-off.
Then

Now


I've had the replacement frame setup to take a 20 gal poly YJ tank just rear of the rear axle (CJ7 style) rather than use a deeper Scrambler poly tank between the last two members.

The 8 control arm mounts match TJs. I'll be using ironman4x4fab solid arms. [EDIT] Now Currie double Johnny Jointed [/EDIT]

OK- First really big question. Axles? I want to use Dana 60s front and rear. I have an NP205 Chevy pass drop tcase. I'll look for a Chevy style D60 for the pass side pumpkin.

What are the drawbacks if I just use full width axles? Any thoughts appreciated. [EDIT]Used full width with H2 rims. They have 5.5 inches backspacing)[/EDIT]

Edited Dec 2010 For new readers. The first 10 to 15 pages are me asking lots of questions... and getting very great answers
  1. Went with 1 Tons- Ford '95 Dana 60 front and Sterling 1 Ton rear. It took months of deliberation to settle on what axles to use. After months of searching I found these two trucks and bought them both. Both 1 tons. : Donor truck and new daily driver
  2. Picked up a sweet 5.0: Engine- Explorer 5.0 It wasn't this engine- bait and switch but got everything in the end. Good poser pic though, eh?
  3. Then the carnage began: Let's strip that baby down!
  4. Had the axles and knew where I was going with tires- BIG!:thumbsup:So off to eBay I went for rims. I took another month or more figuring out if 17s or super cheap 16.5s were the way to go: I went with H2s that would need to get machined out for the larger Ford hubs- mine took a fair bit of work to do compared to others... I bought 17's so I could go with more back-spacing.H2 rims:
  5. Then the rest was just good old hard work for a while: Axle work Those axles got sandblasted 3 times. Man that was plenty of work!
  6. I bought Currie brackets. They took some grinding but were easier to use than building my own. I did have to do something different though with the front driver-side myself that turned out nicely.A bit of custom brackets work.
  7. Then a certified welder and tons and tons of pre-heating then a final third sandblasting: http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f9/jims-new-hybrid-scrambler-build-tons-questions-coming-976744/index29.html#post9960583
  8. And more axle work: http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f9/jims-new-hybrid-scrambler-build-tons-questions-coming-976744/index30.html#post9982530
  9. I basically spent 3 months through the summer on and off working on the geometry.
  10. Finally tires!! Woohoo!! 40" Goodyear MTRs with Kevlar
  11. Then brakes: Jim's brake setup Finally able to see how things fit in the rim.
  12. Then finally building a vehicle begins: Real building work!! And I get to see if all of my measuring an eye-ball engineering really allowed things to fit without rubbing. NO RUBBING!!
  13. Poser shots! poser
  14. Then brake bracket design and mock-up: Brake mock-up still happening.





  15. Want to use long monotubes in as close to zero lift as possible. Built my own bar-pin mounts and located them outward of the mounting plate on the frame and axle to effectively stretch the possible shock stroke: Shock bar pins.


  16. Finished the rear brakes- GM 3/4 ton 4x4 front calipers on the rear with E350 Frod cargo van disks: Rear brakes done.
  17. Finished the front brakes- stock Ford 1 ton calipers and disks: Front brakes done.
  18. 1 ton power brake capabilities for 40" rubber. Did a ton of shopping and looking around then found some smoking hot deals: Settled on dual diaphram booster and Vette master cylinder using YJ mounting bracket.
  19. Assembled those hot deals to see what fit: Parts assembled.
  20. De-greased, bead blasted old bracket, primed and painted everything: Parts together- waiting for chrome MC cover....

    Here's where I'm at now- June 16th, 2011:
    Building crossmembers and setting the driveline in place: Crossmembers


 
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#78 ·
:laugh::laugh: I'm on pins an needles waiting for confirmation about the axles... Tomorrow sometime, I hope. After that it is finally, frame prep/prime/paint, axles cleanup measure, bracket welding prime/paint... and tons of steady work after that.
 
#91 ·
Just bought a running 1981 Wagoneer- 360 74000 miles. $500 Looks good. Been sitting in a barn- dry- for the last 3 years. Pigeon pooh everywhere. Typical rust and what not. Saggy driver door. Back gate doesn't work.:2thumbsup:

OK for a daily driver until I ever figure out what's going on with the "new-in-box-Dana 60" front end. If it isn't complete I can always tear into the Waggy for 44s I suppose. 44,60?

What's the best thing for a 360? Use it or loose it. Now I have another engine. Anyone ever put TBI on one of these babies:2thumbsup:?
 
#92 ·
To the Op slow down your kinda all over the place:D

First question is the chevy front that you have a SRW ( Single rear wheel ) or does it have DRW ( duel rear wheels ) on it, and yes I'm talking about the front.
Second all chevys are King pin. Ford swapped to balljoints in 91.5. Certon year fords are harder to install if you plan on using leaf springs. I know your looking at long arms so that rules that out.

Now to shorten a axle shaft, it cost me localy 110.00 dollars to have one cut and re-splined, but that is just the shaft. To do the tube work I do that myself, but charge local peaple 250.00 for a cut and re-weld of the outer C.
So save your money there and just run deeper offset rims, like H2's or H1's.

Peaple dont weld on any ford parts to Chevy outers. What the other guy is posting about is using Chevy outers on a Ford axle. Why, well guys used to run the dana 70 stubs witch are 35 spline 1.5" ( outers ). So in order to run those you needed the Chevy knuckle, spindle, brake's and the hub.
Now there are plenty of companys that make the 35 spline stubs to fit the Ford hubs. So you can keep those if needed.

Now for the rear dont waste time on a dana 60 fullfloat axle. Why, well theres only one dana 60 out there with 35 spline shafts factory and that was in a Chevy conversion van from the 70's. Very hard to find and not worth it when a dana 70U is out there and easyer to find. The U models have a very smooth bottom, 35 spline shafts and a huge R&P.

Me I run a shaved 14 bolt, been there for 5 ( hard ) years and no breakage to date. For the front I run a 88 Ford dana 60 with the stock inner and outer axle's. I'm not easy on my Jeep, but I never broke eather axle, T-case parts plenty ( FYI dont run a 231HD with 39's:rofl: ).

After years of running a 60/14 bolt I would run them even if i had 33" tire's. The fact that I go out play hard and not break axle's or any parts in them is a great feeling.
This is info in a nut shell, I skimmed on a few of the points I saw. If you have more questions fire away, but try to pick a drivtrain direction.

I like the idea of the 205, its stupid proof and later on down the road a duobler can be installed.
Oh a little prodject I'm working on for a friend duel steer axle's, narrowed, tussed and linked:D






And the rear is done just no Pics.
Jason.
 
#93 ·
Jason- Thanks for explaining this for me. I asked Jeremy at throttledowncustoms to install the coil buckets and control arm mounts at the standard locations on the frame. I had planned on using standard length control arms with little lift (2" with maybe 1" for the body). I'll open up the wheel wells on the clip and tub as needed.

I'm not really after hugely articulating suspension.

This new boxed Chevy Dana 60 is supposed to be a SW with brakes included. I spoke about running rims with more offset and was told it was too hard on the hubs- but on a 1 ton axle with this little weight?? I couldn't believe it would be a problem overloading the bearings.:2thumbsup: The only drawback I could envision would be having more of the locking hubs exposed for snagging logs and stones...

Thanks for letting me know what you think about running big rear-ends with smaller tires. Big deal if I don't have or want giant rubber- I can still get great use out of the big axles being installed.

I should know pretty soon exactly what I have here with the front end and I'll get back to you.:cheers2:
 
#94 ·
The deeper offset will not hurt the KP's or the upper cone's. Alot of guys run H1's witch are 7"s deeper offset and are a heavy rim. Even H2's witch are ALU are at 5"s offset. Having the locking hubs stick out, they may snag a rock or two here and there but who care's its a One Ton axle, you break it.

I have H2's for my buggy and they will see plenty of rocks once I'm done, I could care less about the hub its a one ton..

Back to the offest of the rims and over loading them. Its not going to happen period. Look at a DRW front 60. The wheel mounting surface is what ( dont make me go out in the wet snow and messure one of my axle's ) 8-10"s away from the center line of the KP.
I had a one ton Chevy that I plowed with. I had a 9 foot fisher ( old school fisher ) slung on the front of it for years with a BB 454. I never had a KP or bearing problem.

Proper maintance go's along way. And seeing your TPI motor in your profile and just seeing what your doing here with this build tells me you do proper maintance.

Jason.
 
#95 ·
The deeper offset will not hurt the KP's or the upper cone's. Alot of guys run H1's witch are 7"s deeper offset and are a heavy rim. Even H2's witch are ALU are at 5"s offset. Having the locking hubs stick out, they may snag a rock or two here and there but who care's its a One Ton axle, you break it.

I have H2's for my buggy and they will see plenty of rocks once I'm done, I could care less about the hub its a one ton..

Back to the offest of the rims and over loading them. Its not going to happen period. Look at a DRW front 60. The wheel mounting surface is what ( dont make me go out in the wet snow and messure one of my axle's ) 8-10"s away from the center line of the KP.
I had a one ton Chevy that I plowed with. I had a 9 foot fisher ( old school fisher ) slung on the front of it for years with a BB 454. I never had a KP or bearing problem.

Proper maintance go's along way. And seeing your TPI motor in your profile and just seeing what your doing here with this build tells me you do proper maintance.

Jason.
That's nice clean work you're doing there.

Here is a pic of Humvee rubber with what looks to me to be pretty deep backspacing on the rims:



These should help narrow my track somewhat but what will it do to my turning radius I wonder? Is it possible to still have a pretty tight turning radius with these big tires and wider axles? I have nver seen a Jeep CJ/TJ turn with big tires and axles. Sure, narrow axles and big tires blow, but what about with a wider axle I wonder?
 
#96 ·
H1's were my second choice. Problem for me with them is there only in a 16.5" rim and I wanted to run red lable's witch are 17" tire's.

To run the H1's on a SRW Chevy hub you need to chop off the stock OEM steering arm or the rim will hit. The other option is to run a wheel spacer so it clears the OEM arm on the knuckle, but that kinda defeets the idea of deep offset rims.

So High steer arms are all most a must to run the H1, well you have to. You chopped off OEM arm, LOL.
FYI H1's are 7" of back spaceing so they will really suck the rim in. You will get some hubs stick out but who care's there one ton hubs, they wont break.

For the rear 14 bolt H1's should clear with little effort, only issue some run into is the offset is so deep that they can hit or get in the way of the lower links. So plan the lowers out real well.
A rear SRW 14 bolt is 67"s WMS and a SRW chevy 60 is 69"s WMS so if you have to you can run a 1" wheel spacer on each side for the 14 bolt to help clear or make some room for the lower links.

Jason.
 
#97 · (Edited)
H1's were my second choice. Problem for me with them is there only in a 16.5" rim and I wanted to run red lable's witch are 17" tire's.

To run the H1's on a SRW Chevy hub you need to chop off the stock OEM steering arm or the rim will hit. The other option is to run a wheel spacer so it clears the OEM arm on the knuckle, but that kinda defeets the idea of deep offset rims.

So High steer arms are all most a must to run the H1, well you have to. You chopped off OEM arm, LOL.
FYI H1's are 7" of back spaceing so they will really suck the rim in. You will get some hubs stick out but who care's there one ton hubs, they wont break.

For the rear 14 bolt H1's should clear with little effort, only issue some run into is the offset is so deep that they can hit or get in the way of the lower links. So plan the lowers out real well.
A rear SRW 14 bolt is 67"s WMS and a SRW chevy 60 is 69"s WMS so if you have to you can run a 1" wheel spacer on each side for the 14 bolt to help clear or make some room for the lower links.

Jason.
Wow. You are a fountain of knowledge here. 16.5s are an odd sort of size I've been told and up here (maybe everywhere) many would choose 17s instead. But- what about these?? What a great price AND free shipping:

MILITARY TIRES 37/12.50-16.5 HUMMER H1 HUMVEE HMMWV 95% : eBay Motors (item 110491980792 end time Mar-10-10 06:33:29 PST)

and these:

5 Military H1 Humvee Double Beadlock Wheels 16.5" : eBay Motors (item 200443934932 end time Mar-27-10 20:16:06 PDT)

Maybe I should just go 16.5 ... Sooooo - too soon to decide. Need the axles first but at least there are currently cheaper possible ways to go big AND not get tossed out of the house by the wifey! ;-)

If I could make these work then I'ld buy them without a second thought.

I may hear about the axle again tonight... waiting on pins and needles here with hope! :cheers2::cheers2: - Beer time!
 
#102 ·
I think you mean a H2 rim, there the 17" rim not the H1 witch is a 16.5. Yes OEM arms can be used with a H2 rim, they have a deeper back spaceing but not as deep as the H1 ( witch is 7" ). The H2 is a 5" ( I'm 99% sure its 5" ) back spaced and a 17" rim along with it being a ALU rim verse a steel ( heavy ) H1.

But the draw back to the H2 is its "NOT" a doubdle bead lock like his older brother the H1. But there a clean looking rim and normally found in the 300-400 range, thats not to bad for a ALU rim.

A inner Air lock witch acts like a inner tube but much stronger can be inserted into the rimm. Now the tire can safely be deflaited to a PSI range of 2-3 pounds without loosing a bead.

Jason.
 
#112 ·
Nice! I'm glad I was such an important part of your build :laugh: Andddd now I go back to crawling, as I dont know jack about cj's :D
 
#115 ·
OK. Got that driver's door to stay closed, got the Waggy 360 running on 8 out 8 cylinders and when for a cruise in the new tub -3rd pic.

Also, since I may as well do this right, I've stopped looking for Chevy Dana 60s and have a lead on a Ford Dana 60- complete, with 4.10 and a matching 14 bolt rear. They are used and messy... Oh well. A Ford np435 manual and a friend with an un-needed Ford np205 pass drop tcase has also materialized for my taking.:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

The bad part about this is that an AA bell houseing and plate for one of my 327s costs almost $500. Now I'm thinking about just using a Ford 351... Oh well.

I bet this search is going to take a while.







Oh well. At least we had some fun today!!
 
#116 ·
Well I guess you dont need that waggy anymore then.
I have $50 dollars in quarters I can send you via paypal for it.
 
#117 ·
The one better option with the Ford 205 vs the Chevy is the Ford will have the 32 spline front output so it wont need to be upgraded. The Chevy you need to tare the hole case apart ( very simple ), find a donor 32 spline ( normally you get one from a Ford:p ) and install that into the chevy.

Now you saved some time and money so at least the Ford has the upgraded front shaft and is a better start. If not and you go back to the Chevy grab the Ford case anyways just for the upgraded front output shaft. I can walk you threw the swap if needed be.

Jason.
 
#120 ·
The one better option with the Ford 205 vs the Chevy is the Ford will have the 32 spline front output so it wont need to be upgraded. The Chevy you need to tare the hole case apart ( very simple ), find a donor 32 spline ( normally you get one from a Ford:p ) and install that into the chevy.

Now you saved some time and money so at least the Ford has the upgraded front shaft and is a better start. If not and you go back to the Chevy grab the Ford case anyways just for the upgraded front output shaft. I can walk you threw the swap if needed be.

Jason.
Yeah, I was just reading that today. I also found a link on adapting a Ford 205 to a 700R4 but i'm getting tired of adapters. I'm ready to just grab a ford 5.0 and use its firewall forward harness with the stock efi... Really easy- at least that's what people say...

Also, the Ford D60 will make the trackbar mount much easier, too.

When I finally get this mostly sorted out , Jason, I'll need to buy you a beer!!:cheers2::cheers2:
 
#123 · (Edited)
OK I could use some help.

I have a friend with a driveway full of axles- Cool.:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

First question: He has two 3.73 14 bolt rear ends. The brake drums are different sizes. Deeper and larger diameter. Is there a particular drum size that I should go for?

Second question: He has a Dana 60 kingpin passenger drop front axle. It looks as if it will have a wickedly tight turning radius. He said that the Chevy Dana 60 does have a 6 degree or something tighter turning radius than the Ford D60. This is significant to me. Is anything else to this?



Thanks everyone.
 
#125 ·
6 Degree's, never herd of that. I normally pull the stops run a 8" Hydro ram on the 6" High steer hole. The axle will now turn 40* with a little grinding of the inner ears of the shafts. But for now no I would not worry about the turning radius till you need to, unless your setting a Hydro ram on now.

Thats a 1480 U-joint there you have pictured. Now picture a Rockwell 2.5 ton witch is a 1600 series U-joint and a 5 ton is a 1700.

I would grab that axle from your friend probally get it for a decent price.

Jason.
 
#126 ·
6 Degree's, never herd of that. I normally pull the stops run a 8" Hydro ram on the 6" High steer hole. The axle will now turn 40* with a little grinding of the inner ears of the shafts. But for now no I would not worry about the turning radius till you need to, unless your setting a Hydro ram on now.

Thats a 1480 U-joint there you have pictured. Now picture a Rockwell 2.5 ton witch is a 1600 series U-joint and a 5 ton is a 1700.

I would grab that axle from your friend probally get it for a decent price.

Jason.
The axle at my friend's is a pass drop. boohoo Oh man- hydro steering, that's a good way to ramp up the budget!

My friend also has found a 1989 Ford tow truck with Dana 60 front and unknown rear. We're going to have a look at it. It evidently has ball joints in it.
 
#127 ·
Well we know its from a 91.5 up, unless someone swapped it in there. But still a very good axle. I would run it If I found one. Yes a king pin is stronger but those balljoints are very big on those axle's. They are made to hold up a one ton truck, so holding up a 1/4 ton jeep is a break, LOL.

Jason.
 
#128 ·
#129 ·
I am more familiar with the earlier mustang 5.0. like 1990ish. Mass-air i used the ford motorsport harness in my CJ7 and it was running in no time. Not sure about the later 5.0's i thought there was something different about them that made them not as easy to wire up.
 
#130 ·
Hey lumpster, thanks for the message. I've been looking around like crazy but I can't even find any reference as to what version of the 302 mustang engine is easiest to put in- keeping the efi. I can buy an ECU for a manual tranny for $150 and a harness for $150... It seems almost any 80's to mid 90's 302's with efi have gone into Jeeps (from what I've seen on internet so far)

I'm really tempted since I've made the decision to go driver's side drop. May as well just go Ford right down the driveline... I now have a Ford NP435 and a Ford NP205 just waiting to go behind a Ford engine. Need a bellhousing, too. I don't want to spend money on an AA engine/tranny adapter setup- it will cost 1/2 of a nice efi 302 engine AND I still need to pay to rebuild one of my 327's or 350... Makes it easier just to buy the Ford 320 - turn-key and buy a cheap Ford bellhousing.
 
#133 ·
Yes, the better side of $550 just for the harness. The salvage yard's seems a better deal and I'm OK with wiring- just lazy!:hahaha: So I suppose I could just use the $150 OEM ecu harness and prune it.

That 1995 engine would also need a dizzy swap to use the Painless or Ford Racing harness...
 
#135 ·
Does the motor your looking at come with the computer and harness complete?

Check out this site

tech
OK, thanks a bunch. Just read it and nothing too serious for a Jeep swap using the 94 engine. The RMP EGR Eliminator kit is the start for a cleaner engine. Too bad about the shorter manifold and giving away 10 hp.

The harnes and computer are extra. so is the MAF and plumbing for it- 100 more again.

Thanks for the help.:thumbsup::thumbsup:
 
#138 ·
OK. I've just answered a friend's email. He was asking about the project. I figured I'ld put down what I wrote here for other noobs who are going full out for the first time with little experience or in such a remote place they just don't see too many cool Jeeps...

The Jeep... So this is how you build up a Jeep from scratch.
1 envision what you want and just shelve it in memory
2 decide what axles you want
3 decide what rims you want - they have to fit the axles and clear all steering components
4 will the tires you want fit the rims
5 wait- will the front axle fit with your planned suspension system ?? ie pannard/track bar

if not- return to 1

6 now you know what axles you want
7 what transfercase do you want
8 is it available on the same side drop as your front axle diff

if not- return to 1

8 what tranny do you want- is it too long?
9 now that you have a tranny chosen you can choose the engine
10 how many adapters have you used??? they are really expensive

if you've gotten to this point start buying
and buying
and buying
and buying
and buying

I have gone through quite a process to sort out what I'm going to put together.

I'm using a driver's side drop Dana 60 axle. It works with my coil suspension best. The pannard bar is easier to setup.
I'm using a GM corporate 14 bolt full floater rear- yeah baby!
This has my axles: Throttle Down Kustoms Skid Plates and Accessories Go down to the 2006 Rock Reaper $45,000
I'm using a Ford NP205 tcase- driver drop- it has been described here as "stupid-proof" and "bomb proof"
Then an NP435 tranny- a manual with a really low 1st- I've had a couple of these and like them
A Ford (evidently) F150 bellhousing
An Explorer or Ford Mustang GT 5.0 Liter HO engine drool drool drool
All of this goes together without a single adapter

EXPLORER GT40 HO 5.0 302 ENGINE MUSTANG HEADS INTAKE 65 : eBay Motors (item 120526924037 end time Mar-06-10 15:18:16 PST)

94 95 MUSTANG 5.0 L 302 V8 ENGINE MOTOR 1994 1995 H.O. : eBay Motors (item 130370943608 end time Mar-30-10 12:19:45 PDT)

See- all done!
 
#140 · (Edited)
OK, first off thanks jason m and lumpster and everyone so far for their helpful comments and ideas.:cheers2: It has been quite enjoyable going out and looking at trannys, tcases, engines, and many axles and other cool and dirty parts.

I bought an engine yesterday with all accessories.:2thumbsup: It is a Ford Explorer V8 from a 2001. I also bought the engine harness for a manual tranny, a computer, the maf and all of the maf plumbing, and a new clutch, pressure plate and turned flywheel off of ebay: from mpsautosalvage ( 4436) 99.2% Positive feedback. This is the most I've ever spent on ebay... Actually he invoiced me through paypal. I didn't buy through ebay. I've never done that before.



So now I have the engine, tranny, tcase, and 14 bolt corportate rear end. I still need a Ford F150 bellhousing and a Ford front Dana 60.

I'm still looking at those 16.5 Humvee tires and rims.

 
#141 ·
ok. To deal with the PATS issue with the steering column and pats device/transponder key all I need is one of these babies:

SCT Automotive Performance Products

This can evidently reflash the computer and disable the pats and allow customizing almost any other function of the computer/engine.

Now- to find a used unit!
 
#142 ·
IMO stay away from the hummer wheel/tire combo. They are cheap for a reason, if they were that great everyone would run them. They are heavy, the tires are hard like plastic, and if you get tired of the tires you will have to buy new wheels anyways. If your wanting to drive this thing on the street i would stick to 17's with 37's or maybe 40's if you can find a set cheap enough. You can buy a set of takeoff H2 wheels fairly cheap, they will have a backspacing that will make running full width axles easier. So you wont have to cut down the axle. Look into it before you jump on a set of wheels and tires.
 
#143 · (Edited)
Sooo... after a little reading I find one rim and tire comes to 180 pounds. Wholly cow, that's heavy. That alone is enough reason to think twice about the steel h1 rims and tires. 17's still have a 5" offset compared to the 7" h1 so it is still a significant backspace. If they are around cheaper, yeah, I'll shop around. Thanks

Also, if I want or need to go high-steer, I can, as jason m has mentioned.
 
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