Jeep Enthusiast Forums banner

Well, it's been a while...but I have good news...

4K views 28 replies 8 participants last post by  alexrule123 
#1 ·
Hey guys,

It's been a while since I've been on here, so I thought I should check in...;) Well, I've completely dropped the custom turbo manifold idea for the 4.0L jeep. I honestly just can't offer them for a price thats reasonable, with the time that I have to put into the fabrication. I'm also not very satisifed with the fitment, of the components, and the possible LCA issues.

:EDIT: (see post #5!) However, I am going to produce a simple piping kit that will remote mount the turbo. The kit will include just the up-pipe, down-pipe, and optional charge piping to fit a basic T3/T4 turbo. I don't have a price set yet, but I think I can offer it for under $300, yet be of much higher quality and be able to support much more WHP than the 505 setup. I may even be able to get a IC kit produced as well, but I havn't looked much into that as of yet.

I hope I can make it up to the guys that I left hanging. :2thumbsup: :cheers:

More updates to come!
Thanks guys,
Bryson
 
#2 ·
Sounds good man...I have been in your shoes, in fact still kind of am...just regrouping (for a few years now).
 
#3 ·
sounds good man, get to workin..lol
 
#5 ·
Well, it just figures that the day after I make this announcement, that I decide to change up the plans a little...lol. :p I was talking with a buddy at work that is hoping to turbo his TJ, and came up with the conclusion that I'm going to be building the kit to be a remote mount type turbo location.

I know I've talked **** about this design in the past, and I'd like to make it clear that this doesn't change how I feel AT ALL! I still feel that the remote mount type is a last resort in terms of prefered turbo placement, but in this situation I feel it's really the best course of action.

If I placed the turbo in the location like 505, some applications would require the A/C to be removed. It would also require you to pull the turbo off just to replace the damn spark plugs. I am a firm beleiver in easy maintence, and want the setup to compliment the vehicle...not to make it more of a pain in the *** to work on.

with that being said, I have decided on a simple setup that will mount the turbo in place of the factory cat. It will have a easy slip on adapter making it painless to install onto the factory down pipe. The compressor will sit right behind the transfer case, which allows the air filter to be blocked by the majority of the transfer case. I will also make a filter shroud though to protect the air filter (and turbo/engine ;) ) from rocks, rain, snow...etc. The Charge piping will route right along the driver's side frame rail (next to the drive shaft), and be secured tightly to the chassis so it doesn't interfere with anything. The DP will be cake...just a couple 90 deg bends and it's back to the exhaust... :)

I was origionally planning on just offering the piping, but I think I'll offer an oil line kit to go with the kit as well since it'll require an oil pump for the return line.

More updates to come. :)
 
#6 ·
the kit sounds interesting...
but with remote turbos... I rather not be first in line to try it. I'll take dibs on 5th place (and hopefully if one of the first few guinea pigs trys it in the mud and snow :D )... oh, and hopefull you WILL offer a complete kit. I'm far too stupid to piece my own.



.
 
#7 ·
urban-yan said:
the kit sounds interesting...
but with remote turbos... I rather not be first in line to try it. I'll take dibs on 5th place (and hopefully if one of the first few guinea pigs trys it in the mud and snow :D )... oh, and hopefull you WILL offer a complete kit. I'm far too stupid to piece my own.

.
Don't take this the wrong way, but maybe a turbo setup isn't for you. Someone who is willing to tackle this challenge, needs to understand the concepts and risks associated with a well built turbo setup. If you truely want to turbo your jeep, you shouldn't have a problem with peicing together some simple parts (that I can help you find ;) ).

I honestly can't peice together a complete kit, because I wouldn't be able to offer it for a fair price. I also don't want to deal with the warranty/liability issues of other products. If I build a piping kit, I just have to warranty my work. I can then help the customer get the rest of the parts they need for the exact setup and power they are looking for. You have to keep in mind that all I do is TIG weld manifolds, and tubing. I am by no means a retailer of other turbo products. :2thumbsup:
 
#8 · (Edited)
well you're probably right. I still don't know what I really want (except for more power of course):

- I like strokers, but they're costly to install by a third-party mechanic (and my motor's running fine),
- I really like the 505performance supercharger, but their lousy customer service & steep unit cost (without a group-buy) terrifies me
- I like a standard turbo set-up, but I don't want to scrap my banks header.
- I like the idea of a cheap under-the-hood turbo set-up, but I refuse to ditch my AC
- and lastly, I like your concept, but I'm afraid of premature damage to the turbo/ air intake components from mud&snow, and I'm afraid of piecing the wrong components which could only destroy my dd reliability.

I'm a pretty picky person, and I definitely don't want to waste my money on something woefully overpriced; I guess that's why I'm interested in your offering. I don't expect a warranty, I guess I don't really need you to sell me a complete kit either just as long as you'd be willing to work with me to track down ALL (and I mean ALL) the necessary pieces on-the-cheap.


.
 
#9 ·
Of course man. I'm here to help by all means. I can tell you exactly what you need, and where you can get it. I simply can't be the one to sell it too ya ;)

And I can assure you that the kit will be daily driveable, and handle the elements (although I'm sure deep water crossings, and deep mud are going to be a no brainer ;)). I am after all building this first setup for my very own 99 sport, which also happens to be my daily driver. I will definetly be doing a full test of the setup, and give it a fairly decent amount of time to prove itself reliable before I even think about offering it. If something does happen (not likely) then I'll make the correct changes needed. Being that I've been turboing cars for about 8 years, I know exactly what parts work and what don't. I'm 100% confident in my ability to be able to pull this simple setup off without a hitch. :)
 
#10 ·
oh I trust you, and I'm glad you're going to be the guinea pig on this project (it's always more re-assuring when the builder, himself, is willing to test the set-up on their own vehicle). In fact, I'm more worried you might catch tealcherokee syndrome than anything else. It's a pretty serious ailment; most people that catch it seldom recover.

Re: parts, hopefully, I'll be able to score some of the major components on ebay with your help (since I'm a total ebay junkie). It seems to be a good place to save a ton of cash if someone is willing to wait for the right deal.

I am curious beforehand: 01) have you put any thought into potential power gains from this type of set-up? 02) Will the stock ECU handle the system? 03) Will this be a standard turbo set-up or a low-pressure set-up that can handle regular fuel? 04) What do you expect as the total customer cost?



.
 
#11 ·
urban-yan said:
oh I trust you, and I'm glad you're going to be the guinea pig on this project (it's always more re-assuring when the builder, himself, is willing to test the set-up on their own vehicle). In fact, I'm more worried you might catch tealcherokee syndrome than anything else. It's a pretty serious ailment; most people that catch it seldom recover.

Re: parts, hopefully, I'll be able to score some of the major components on ebay with your help (since I'm a total ebay junkie). It seems to be a good place to save a ton of cash if someone is willing to wait for the right deal.

I am curious beforehand: 01) have you put any thought into potential power gains from this type of set-up? 02) Will the stock ECU handle the system? 03) Will this be a standard turbo set-up or a low-pressure set-up that can handle regular fuel? 04) What do you expect as the total customer cost?

.
Oh I'll definetly be fallowing through with this project. The only reason I havn't gone farther with the manifolds was because of fitment issues, long build times, and cost. The remote mounted setup actually takes care of all those problems. :thumbsup:

About the ebay parts...definetly choose wisely, and I'd reccomend contacting me before making any purchase. There are sellers such as: xspower, ssautochrome for example that make cheap chineese knock offs that don't last 100 miles. However, if you can find a genuine Garrett, borg warner, holset, or turbonetics turbo in good shape, you'd be golden. :) And obviously, the same goes for the other parts as well.

1: A common rule of thumb with a decent sized turbo, is that you'll be able to get roughly 10hp per psi of boost. ex...10psi you'll be at around a 100hp gain. This can of course be increased or decreased depending on the turbo size, intercooling, motor VE, and tuning just to name a few. I don't see any reason why the stock motor can't handle a 100whp increase if the motor is tuned properlly. The amount of power iincrease is pretty much up to the user's will to push the limits, the fuel system capabilities, and turbo size. If you want a 300whp increase...go for it. You just have to be willing to accept the risk of blowing the motor ;)

2. The stock ECU can handle the system. However...Some form of engine management system will need to be installed to tune the engine properlly (fuel curve, and ignition tables). You can do this through an Apexi SAFC and MSD BTM, or get an inclusive unit like the FTC1 from splitsecond. I HIGHLY reccomend the FTC1 because splitseocond has developed a unit specifically for the 4.0L. It also has real time map tracing like a good standalone ECU, which makes tuning much easier and effective.

3. All forced induction motors will require a fuel of a higher octane to prevent detonation. The setup will require at least 91 octane. However, because you can now tune the fuel curve with the engine management system, you can now run E85 (octane of about 105) which depending on your area, can be almost a $1 cheaper than 91. However, it's not available in all areas, so 91 or 93 might be prefered.

4. Total cost is ccompletely dependant upon the parts the user can find and afford. I beleive that if the user takes their time, and buys decent used parts, a reliable setup can be built for less than $1500. However, setups can get expensive very fast if you factor in a brand new ball bearing garrett turbo (1300), stand alone engine management, fuel system upgrades...etc. It would be pretty easy to spend over $5000 on a turbo setup (I have over $8000 into my turbo CRX in the turbo setup alone). :shhh:

But I hope I can help out in that I don't intend on selling the kits for an insane price. I can weld tubing very fast, and cheap which should keep the kits under $400. :cheers2:
 
#14 ·
Bryson said:
About the ebay parts...definetly choose wisely, and I'd reccomend contacting me before making any purchase.
That's a given. I won't pretend I know allot about turbos, so you can rest assured I'd get you to sign-off on every component.

Bryson said:
1: A common rule of thumb with a decent sized turbo, is that you'll be able to get roughly 10hp per psi of boost. ex...10psi you'll be at around a 100hp gain. This can of course be increased or decreased depending on the turbo size, intercooling, motor VE, and tuning just to name a few. I don't see any reason why the stock motor can't handle a 100whp increase if the motor is tuned properlly. The amount of power iincrease is pretty much up to the user's will to push the limits, the fuel system capabilities, and turbo size. If you want a 300whp increase...go for it. You just have to be willing to accept the risk of blowing the motor ;)
well I always wanted something that makes 300hp at the crank (not even the wheels -- I'm realistic), but at the end of the day I'll take anything that won't blow my motor to kingdom come... I can't afford to tackle a turbo set-up and engine rebuild at the same time.

Bryson said:
2. The stock ECU can handle the system. However...Some form of engine management system will need to be installed to tune the engine properlly (fuel curve, and ignition tables). You can do this through an Apexi SAFC and MSD BTM, or get an inclusive unit like the FTC1 from splitsecond. I HIGHLY reccomend the FTC1 because splitseocond has developed a unit specifically for the 4.0L. It also has real time map tracing like a good standalone ECU, which makes tuning much easier and effective.
Would you have a link to the Jeep specific FTC1? I never heard of it, and I wouldn't mind reading up on it.

Bryson said:
3. All forced induction motors will require a fuel of a higher octane to prevent detonation. The setup will require at least 91 octane. However, because you can now tune the fuel curve with the engine management system, you can now run E85 (octane of about 105) which depending on your area, can be almost a $1 cheaper than 91. However, it's not available in all areas, so 91 or 93 might be prefered.
I'm always curious about fuel grade/ economy because I live in Canada, and our regular averages $4.20/gallon. Premium averages about $4.60/ gallon. I haven't seen e85 anywhere in my area yet. I really don't want to put myself in a position where I have to pay a premium for gas, and face a drastic reduction in fuel economy from the turbo at the same time. I browsed a few articles on remote turbos and some mentioned improved fuel economy over other set-ups... hopefully you'll be able to shed some light on the matter during the system shake-down.

Bryson said:
4. Total cost is ccompletely dependant upon the parts the user can find and afford. I beleive that if the user takes their time, and buys decent used parts, a reliable setup can be built for less than $1500. However, setups can get expensive very fast if you factor in a brand new ball bearing garrett turbo (1300), stand alone engine management, fuel system upgrades...etc.
$1500? now that's a number I can live-with (and justify). I particularly like how I can spread the purchase over several months. I spread out the cost of my 300mm brake upgrade in a similar fashion. You can't do that with a 3800k supercharger.

Bryson said:
But I hope I can help out in that I don't intend on selling the kits for an insane price. I can weld tubing very fast, and cheap which should keep the kits under $400. :cheers2:
right now I'm thinking, that -- once you're satisfied with the final/ road-test results -- I'll pay you for the pipes BUT I'll have you hold onto them... than I'll work with you on the remaining parts and have them sent directly to you for inspection. That would give me some guarantee that I didn't order defective parts. Of course, that's assuming you're cool with that idea. Like I said earlier, I don't know a thing about turbos and it would be better for me if I had someone with experience check over my purchases.

HAVING SAID ALL THAT.
I'm really interested... mostly scared about the air filter location, and engine management upgrade... but interested just the same.

.
 
#16 ·
alexrule123 said:
If i only had money :(
oh come on bro. this kit is perfect for you (and me) for that exact reason:

You don't have to come up with 2200k+freight for a stroker in one shot.
You don't have to come up with 3000-3800k for a supercharger
You don't even need the full ~1500k for Bryson's set-up right away

.... just save ~$400 for the end of the year, buy his tubing than get the rest of the parts as your budget allows. I'm getting real excited about this concept. It's perfect for people on a budget. I read an article on the sts remote turbo bolted onto an f-body, and the results have me sold on the idea (well ok, I'm still a little scared about the air filter placement, but the rest of the concept makes allot of sense)

.
 
#17 ·
I'll most likely be buying this (327 idea fell through) it sounds like a good Idea but I'm gonna try and mount the turbo off the manifold first though (I dont care about ac) but this sounds easier to me I want pics as soon as you get some made tough
 
#18 ·
urban-yan said:
oh come on bro. this kit is perfect for you (and me) for that exact reason:

You don't have to come up with 2200k+freight for a stroker in one shot.
You don't have to come up with 3000-3800k for a supercharger
You don't even need the full ~1500k for Bryson's set-up right away

.... just save ~$400 for the end of the year, buy his tubing than get the rest of the parts as your budget allows. I'm getting real excited about this concept. It's perfect for people on a budget. I read an article on the sts remote turbo bolted onto an f-body, and the results have me sold on the idea (well ok, I'm still a little scared about the air filter placement, but the rest of the concept makes allot of sense)

.
Theres other benefits as well...such as Gas mileage VS a stroker/supercharger. If the motor is tuned right, and driven conservatively you should see a mpg near stock. Also, the power potential is much greater than a typical stroker or SC.

I am still worried about the intake location, but I'll figure out something. I actually think an inexpensive aluminum flex tube will allow the filter to remain in the engine bay. However, I'll have to figure out if the intake tube will interfere with the charge pipe though since they would both be routed on the same side. It might also be possible to squeeze it by the front driveshaft, but I'd rather stay away from that.
 
#19 ·
Let's just say if you can fashion a way to keep the air intake under the hood than my commitment has gone from 99.9% to a theoretically impossible 1000%. lol

In fact, I could probably retain a large portion of my AFE air intake (the filter, pre-filter cover, and super-snazzy heat shield). It would also make sense for me to finally install those Pontiac GTP Hood vents sitting in my basement (it would seem pretty stupid to mount them if the filter went under the truck).

If I could make one suggestion. Maybe you should offer two variants of your kit:
01) a standard priced kit where the filter goes under the truck
02) a premium kit with tubing that retains the filter under the hood. Personally, I'm willing to pay extra for that option (come on man, I live in snowy-canada)

.
 
#20 ·
urban-yan said:
Let's just say if you can fashion a way to keep the air intake under the hood than my commitment has gone from 99.9% to a theoretically impossible 1000%. lol

In fact, I could probably retain a large portion of my AFE air intake (the filter, pre-filter cover, and super-snazzy heat shield). It would also make sense for me to finally install those Pontiac GTP Hood vents sitting in my basement (it would seem pretty stupid to mount them if the filter went under the truck).

If I could make one suggestion. Maybe you should offer two variants of your kit:
01) a standard priced kit where the filter goes under the truck
02) a premium kit with tubing that retains the filter under the hood. Personally, I'm willing to pay extra for that option (come on man, I live in snowy-canada)

.
Yeah I truely hate the idea of having the air inlet located undeneith the chassis, exposed to the elements. I'll do whatever I can to come up with some way to get it back into the engine bay.

You know, honestly I think I'm going to be selling the peices of the kit individually, as well as offering a group price. That way you can get only the parts that you want/need. :thumbsup:
 
#21 ·
hey Bryson, I was talking to my buddy about your remote turbo project,
and he reminded me that 505 performance offers a remote turbo that
runs under the hood. The real advantages include: 1) much less custom
piping 2) the air intake/ turbo stay under the hood (no dirt in the intake,
no water on the turbo).

only, perhaps, you could build a setup that stays on the right hand side
in an area around the airbox/ intake manifold. It would look much cleaner
than the 505 set-up.

http://www.jpmagazine.com/techarticles/engine/154_0508_jeep_4_0l_turbo/index.html

 
#22 ·
with the exhaust going by the oil pan that would just make it harder to lower and it would put exhaust heat on both sides and under the engine I think putting the turbo on the other side of the engine is stupid

what if you made the exhaust manifold point towards the front of the jeep and moved the power steering somewhere else or would the routing the power steering lines be to much of a strain on the pump... screw it just modify your fender well to fit a normal tubular manifold

one more question bryson would it be easier to route charge/intake piping in a 2wd model I know there is no front driveshaft to deal with and if I was just making the xj for track only wouldn't it be easier to route the intake through the floor and up the dash to end up somewhere on the cowl (by the windsheild wipers) with a little scoop? Idk I just got the idea from some off road racing show I was watching where they routed the intake into the drivers compartment so it would pick up cleaner air
 
#23 ·
urban-yan said:
hey Bryson, I was talking to my buddy about your remote turbo project,
and he reminded me that 505 performance offers a remote turbo that
runs under the hood. The real advantages include: 1) much less custom
piping 2) the air intake/ turbo stay under the hood (no dirt in the intake,
no water on the turbo).

only, perhaps, you could build a setup that stays on the right hand side
in an area around the airbox/ intake manifold. It would look much cleaner
than the 505 set-up.
The 505 kit technically isn't a remote mounted kit. If this were the case, all subarus would be considered remote mount ;). A remote mounted turbo setup is really anything that mounts the turbo outside the engine bay.

Trust me though. I've spent a long time thinking about building a kit similar to 505's, but there are just way too many things I don't like about it for me to look otherwise. Those reason are:

- Theres no easy way to get the exhaust routed around the bottom of the motor without having to either make major changes or having it be a potential clearance issue for something else.

- Having a very hot turbo on the same side as the distributor major electrical components, and A/C is just asking for trouble. It also makes routine maintence a pain in the *** (changing plugs, cap/rotor/wires...ect).

- It severly limits the turbo size. The largest turbo you could really run is a small T3. The T3 super 60 505 runs is a VERY small turbo for a 4.0l motor. By having a remote mount kit, the turbo size can range from a very small T25 up to a large T4 which allows the end user to be able to find a power band that fits their needs.

- It limits the down pipe size to about 2". My remote mount kit will have a 3" down pipe right off the turbo which will greatly help spool and overall power.

- The possibilities of running an intercooler are out the window.

Should I go on? For the price the 505 kit is absolutely horrible. :thumbdown:

with the exhaust going by the oil pan that would just make it harder to lower and it would put exhaust heat on both sides and under the engine I think putting the turbo on the other side of the engine is stupid

what if you made the exhaust manifold point towards the front of the jeep and moved the power steering somewhere else or would the routing the power steering lines be to much of a strain on the pump... screw it just modify your fender well to fit a normal tubular manifold

one more question bryson would it be easier to route charge/intake piping in a 2wd model I know there is no front driveshaft to deal with and if I was just making the xj for track only wouldn't it be easier to route the intake through the floor and up the dash to end up somewhere on the cowl (by the windsheild wipers) with a little scoop? Idk I just got the idea from some off road racing show I was watching where they routed the intake into the drivers compartment so it would pick up cleaner air
Trust me...The remote kit will fit everyones needs. It may sound a little iffy right now, but I can assure you once you see the completed product you'll love it. I'm not someone to over look something. The way I designed it, there really isn't any major changes that will be required to the factory engine layout, or anything else for that matter.

While it definetly would work, it honestly would just complicate everything for no real benefit.

I am planning on a 3" intake tube from the turbo all the way back to the engine bay which will utilize the factory airbox or cone filter. If a 3" intake tube won't fit, we can always run a reducer to a smaller tube. We could easily run a 2" intake tube to the turbo without affecting much. :cheers2:
 
#24 ·
Bryson said:
The 505 kit technically isn't a remote mounted kit. If this were the case, all subarus would be considered remote mount ;). A remote mounted turbo setup is really anything that mounts the turbo outside the engine bay.
I guess you're right... but I have difficult time calling it a standard turbo if it's not bolted onto a custom header (much less accepting the 505 price... for something comprised of some generic parts/ no real header)

Bryson said:
Trust me...The remote kit will fit everyones needs. It may sound a little iffy right now, but I can assure you once you see the completed product you'll love it.
you made allot of great points in favor of your rmt set-up, but you'll have to forgive me for being squeamish until its running. What can I say, I trust you, but I scare easy.

.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top