Jeep Enthusiast Forums banner

Ugly Betty - TJ Magnum V8 Conversion and more

185K views 745 replies 48 participants last post by  Jason 
#1 ·
Ugly Betty - TJ Magnum V8 conversion, Auto transmission swap and more, if I survive this.

Prologue:

I have a 2005 TJ with the I6 that I built running 35s. When I bought it, I was looking for a super clean, low mile, unmolested Jeep to build on. It has D44 / HPD30 / Tummy Tucked / 4.56s and a bunch of other goodies. It functions really well for the kind of stuff we do around here, but is still comfortable enough to drive daily if necessary.


^^ As dirty as it ever gets. ^^

The problem is it's too nice for me to damage or drill a bunch of holes in. It gets stored in the winter because of the destructive salt used on the road 6 months out of the year. The 05 has some pinstripes and nicks from the trails, but I want to get on some harder trails and really push what I can build. I'm going to continue to "build" it, but the upgrades will be fairly minor at this point. Brakes, steering and the like.

So I set out to buy a cheap TJ. I want something that I don't feel bad about cutting holes in or generally abusing. Around here, it's next to impossible to find a running TJ of any year that isn't falling apart for under $5K. Most times cheap TJs in my area were plagued with cancerous rust. I researched insurance auctions, but found that to be very difficult without an inside man, public auctions had pretty big fees, and even wrecked Wranglers can go for close to retail cost. I checked out Davey's Jeeps, and the one that I found with potential sold the day after I called about it. I even found a few folks with bare frames and bodies, but once you add up the odds and ends, it gets just as expensive as buying a complete TJ. Needless to say, I spent much time searching.

I finally happened across a fairly solid 97 TJ with a 4 cylinder. It had a new factory style top, new tires, and the frame and body were mostly rust free. The carpet was long gone and interior was lined with the spray in liner. It was about 2.5 hours away. I took an afternoon off work and drove out to see it, pocket full of cash and trailer in tow.

It was located just north of Detroit. I met the guy at his shop near the corner of a busy intersection. I ended up parking in the lot next door to his place because it looked easier to get the truck + trailer in and out. The Jeep started, and drove around the parking lot without much fuss, so I handed the guy some money. I didn't want to try to turn left into the traffic, then left again to get into the parking lot where my truck and trailer were parked, and I don't know the area, so I did what any good Jeeper would do and just drove it over the curb through the grass. (It wasn't that big, but I still thought it was funny.) On to the trailer and home we went.

The paint scheme was unique, and certainly not what I would have chosen. She's got a few other minor bumps and bruises too. Since I am now a two-Jeep household again, I couldn't simply refer to either as "the Jeep" anymore. I started calling it Ugly Betty, and the name kind of stuck.


^^ Beauty, in the eye of the beholder. I guess. ^^
 
See less See more
2
#32 ·
T-case talk:

(Later edited after taking the two cases apart. Edits in italics.)

Jeep, being a 4 cylinder, is a ax-5 tranny with a 21 spline input NP231J t-case.
Ram, being a 360, is a 46RE auto with a 23 spine input NP231D t-case.

Shift patterns are also different. Front to back:
Jeep --- Ram
2H ----- 4L
4H ----- N
N ------ 2H
4L ----- 4H

I need to either change the input gear on the Jeep 231, or use the Ram 231 somehow. Using the Ram t-case would give me a different shifting pattern than what is printed on the console. (Not a big deal, but it might make my OCD act up.) I'd also have to figure out the linkage. I believe they are the same, but don't know for sure. (Edit: The linkages are different, and the shift lever attached to the t-case is opposite on the two cases; Jeep points down, Dodge points up. See pics at the bottom.) There are also vacuum fittings that likely control the front axle disconnect that the Jeep doesn't have, and there doesn't appear to be a switch for the 4WD light on the Ram case. (Edit: After tearing the the Dodge case apart, the vacuum actuator is in the same spot as the Jeep's electical 4WD indicator switch. I believe that the Vacuum switch on the Dodge case controls the front axle disconnect and 4WD light on the dash and has no real function inside the case. Pics added at the bottom for reference.)

I toyed around with the idea of using the Ram tcase with a Jeep 231 SYE (confirmed with Advance Adapters that it would fit). I think there are some subtle internal differences in the cases, and I'll compare the two when I get the Jeep disassembled. This would also allow me to use the Jeep speed sensor, as the Ram appears to be on the rear diff. (Edit: I had to also transfer the input shaft bearing from the Dodge case into the Jeep case, along with the input gears. This is covered in a write-up here.)

Another option would be splitting the two cases and trying to use the front half of the Ram case, and the rear of the Jeep. Again, get the Jeep speedo sensor back.

The third option is to obtain a 23 spline input gear and use the Jeep case. I believe I can take the Ram input gear and use it on the Jeep t-case, but we'll see.

Now, all of that musing is simply educational. Because I cracked the front of the Ram case while trying to remove it, I have to go with door number 3.


^^^ Crap ^^^


^^^ Dodge NP231D with vacuum switch and shift lever pointing up ^^^


^^^ Jeep NP231J with electric switch and shift lever pointing down ^^^
 
#34 ·
Yeah, my 8 lb.

I fussed with it for two hours. Tugged, pulled, tried lifting with the jack, nothing. I tried smacking it with a wood block but that didn't work. I tapped it in the spot pictured above and it cracked. I didn't even hit it that hard and it cracked. I ended up wailing on the front yoke pretty hard until it finally broke free. One of the cavities was packed with mud and corrosion.
 
#35 ·
Oh yeah, tomorrow. I'm going to separate the transmission from the engine, hopefully without breaking anything. Need to address the freeze plugs, then I'm putting it back together and setting them aside. I have the wiring harness laid out, so I'm going to start figuring that out next.
 
#37 ·
I think so.

Many of the other writeups I've seen that discuss wiring this kind of swap suggest using the Jeep wiring harness on the Dodge enigine, and splicing the Dodge sensors into the Jeep wiring, then plugging that into the Dodge PCM. I don't understand why they just don't use the Dodge wiring, plug that into the PCM, and marry the non-engine stuff (lights, gauges, etc.) to the Dodge harness.

I think I'm starting to see the light now. The 3 32-pin plugs that go to the computer are all bundled up with the engine wiring harness. This also includes the main harness for the underhood fuse panel. So if I wanted to use the Dodge harness, I would need the Dodge underhood fuse panel, or rewire it all to plug in to the Jeep fuse panel. I think that it is actually simpler to use the Jeep harness because it's already 3/4s done, where using the Ram harness means I'd have to touch everything.
 
#38 ·
I think so.

Many of the other writeups I've seen that discuss wiring this kind of swap suggest using the Jeep wiring harness on the Dodge enigine, and splicing the Dodge sensors into the Jeep wiring, then plugging that into the Dodge PCM. I don't understand why they just don't use the Dodge wiring, plug that into the (dodge?) PCM, and marry the non-engine stuff (lights, gauges, etc.) to the Dodge harness.

I think I'm starting to see the light now. The 3 32-pin plugs that go to the computer are all bundled up with the engine wiring harness. This also includes the main harness for the underhood fuse panel. So if I wanted to use the Dodge harness, I would need the Dodge underhood fuse panel, or rewire it all to plug in to the Jeep fuse panel. I think that it is actually simpler to use the Jeep harness because it's already 3/4s done, where using the Ram harness means I'd have to touch everything.
One question in red above.

I can understand that explanation now. The jeep harness is already tied into the jeep (fuse panel, grounds etc...) where as if you use the dodge harness you would either have to swap the dodge fuse panel over or rewire the whole dodge harness into the jeep fuse panel?
 
#41 ·
Fairly productive, but otherwise uneventful day today. I got the freeze plugs installed, the larger of the two was the obvious culprit. There was some sludgy crap in the block. I cleaned out as much as I could. I mated the transmission back to the engine and bolted all the pieces back together. Somehow I broke the distributor cap removing the engine, so that needs replacement. Also, the rear most bolt on the intake mainfold is broken (I didn't do that). I think this engine has been apart before. The valve cover bolts were also loose, not even finger tight. I snugged them down. It's now stored in the corner and Betty is in the garage awaiting the impending surgery.

Was very much considering rebuilding the engine because it was out, but instead I'm sticking with the plan of getting it installed and running first. Maybe next winter.....

Wire harness comes out of the Jeep tomorrow. Then fun with schematics.


^^^ All smiles here. ^^^
 
#43 ·
It looks like it's on the floor.

I haven't done much today, yet. I had to go to town and get supplies and wash the DD. I had some other responsibilities that I've been neglecting lately that needed a little attention. I'm getting the Jeep harness labeled right now and on its way out.

 
#45 ·
Thanks Dean. I've wanted a V8 TJ for a long time.

I got most of the wiring out of the TJ. Still need to free up whatever is in/around the transmission.

Other Observations:
There were quite a few (6, I think) plugs that were not plugged into anything under the hood. I didn't find any empty harnesses, so I'm not sure where they go.

I had a little difficulty removing the shift lever for the transmission. I found a write up that indicates there's a spring loaded lock ring that you push down and twist to remove the shift lever. Sounds easy enough. Well I couldn't seem to get a tool in there to push down and twist at the same time, only one or the other. So I referred to the FSM that suggests you should push down and twist with finger pressure to remove the lock ring. At this point I'll give anything a shot. Using my fingers, I had it out in about 8 seconds. Unbelievable.


^^^ I'll be damned ^^^
 
#49 ·
Lol, yep. I never thought to look for a rear sway bar.

I guess that's ok though. I want to try out an anti-rock sway bar, and I can't on my 05 because of my bumper design. This will also give me an opportunity to design a front that will work with the anti-rock.
 
#51 ·
Wiring isn't much fun. Last summer my son and I mashed his 90 Ranger 2.3 with his 94 Explorer 4.0. While techinally all bolted in and swapped easily, I did have to alter the interior harness and the frame/taillights/fuel pump harness. Newer stuff was easier. Then again, we were working on vehicles in the same essential family. I'm interested in your progress. Subscribed!
 
#52 ·
Thanks! :tea: But thanks... :(

I'm not looking forward to the wiring, which pretty much brings me to the point that I am at right now. I have the wiring harnesses freed and the grille and fenders removed from the Jeep. All that needs to happen is undo the fuel line and starter wire and I should be able to pull the 4 cylinder.
 
#55 ·

I spent a lot of time cutting and soldering and used marine grade heatshrink. And a little time re-pinning a few connectors.


This was before I wrapped this section OE style. Pain in the butt. But the truck started with the first twist of the key. So it was worth it all.

I wish you luck!:2thumbsup: Patience and document!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ephry73
#54 ·
Maybe. Ram has good axles, wheels / tires, and everything except the body is there. I hope to at least make the cost of the Ram back, if not a little more to offset the cost of the conversion hardware. Doubt the 4 cylinder and ax-5 will bring much. I did notice that the block is very dry; not oily or grimy like many motors of this age, so that's a good sign.

I was also looking at the Pennzoil oil filter that it is currently equipped with. It reads "Made in the USA" on the label. That's a good thing. That got me looking at the ones I have on my shelf; a Mopar MO-090 (used by the Jeep 4.0 and Dodge 360) and a Ac Delco PF47 (used by every common Chevy engine). Both of those were also made in the USA as well. Also good.

Another note about oil filters, I picked up the Mopar filter because I know they are good and that's what the book calls for. My 2005 with the 4.0 uses one too; however, I stopped using them long ago because the Motorcraft FL-1A fits the engine, and it's about a third larger. (I also had Fords for a long time, and the Ford V8s used this filter.) I believe that the extra filter media can't hurt anything. If I can clear it, I might switch the 360 to the FL-1A filter.

I started spinning the t-case skid bolts and all on one side loosened freely. I got interrupted and didn't try the other side yet, but that's a good sign.
 
#56 ·
Cool, making some money back is probably the 2nd coolest part of these swaps.

I run that FL-1A as well, same train of though...cant hurt thats for sure.

And as far as the t-case skid bolts spinning out, you lucky lucky man. The frame must be in real good shape. Did you spray them, heat them or use an impact on them?
 
#67 ·
Train B runs for 2.4 hours to catch A.

Unless one of the trains is carrying the parts I need for this swap. If so, then it was delayed because I hijacked it at gun point and took the parts, and one train wheel, then rode off on my horse into the sunset.

No word yet on my radiator. Motor mounts get here tomorrow.
 
#71 ·
Parts book shows 5 different part numbers for the radiator, BUT the first one listed is copper/brass and checks with both engines, so I guess it would work with both.

I'm going to try to sell it, along with anything else I can salvage.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top