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2014 Grand Wagoneer

34K views 64 replies 26 participants last post by  Marauder_Pilot 
#1 ·
2014 Grand Wagoneer - 7 seater aimed at Mercedes GL, Escalade, and other luxury SUV's. (full article here)

excerpt: For its 2014 model year, Jeep will move upmarket with the release of its largest and most expensive Jeep, the Grand Wagoneer, which will compete with the Cadillac Escalade, Mercedes-Benz GL and other luxury SUVs. The seven-passenger vehicle will share a platform with the Grand Cherokee. But it will be different from Jeep's previous seven-seater, the Commander, as the Grand Wagoneer's wheelbase and rear overhang will be stretched to make the Grand Wagoneer's second- and third-row seating more comfortable.

Given the now iconic status of the original, I'm betting we will see this remake. Just hold the faux woodgrain in 2014...

 
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#34 ·
it was nice back in the day. but....... it was also capable. it was easily lifted making room for more capability. newer vehicles have so much crap. tmps, traction control, brake assist, hill start assist, butt massagers, heated tinting mirrors. all the technology is nice but offroad (thats what a jeep is for dont forget) that technology adds weight, cost and another element to fail. jeep can build some dang nice suvs (Grand Cherokees) and some capable ones (wrangler rubincon) but they cant seem to find the middle ground (solid axles, lockers, 33s stock, delete the carpet and other luxury items)


sorry if this is a rant but i really want a new jeep truck (not to replace but sit next too)
 
#35 ·
it was nice back in the day. but....... it was also capable. it was easily lifted making room for more capability. newer vehicles have so much crap. tmps, traction control, brake assist, hill start assist, butt massagers, heated tinting mirrors. all the technology is nice but offroad (thats what a jeep is for dont forget) that technology adds weight, cost and another element to fail. jeep can build some dang nice suvs (Grand Cherokees) and some capable ones (wrangler rubincon) but they cant seem to find the middle ground (solid axles, lockers, 33s stock, delete the carpet and other luxury items)

sorry if this is a rant but i really want a new jeep truck (not to replace but sit next too)
I want a Jeep truck, too. So much that I'm debating pulling my girl's great uncle's old Willy's pick up out of a field and trying to restore it. It's definitely time for Jeep to return to the pick up game. Especially now that Ford has discontinued the Ranger until it's redesigned. (feel free to interpret that as ruined) However, I don't see Jeep getting into the pick up game as long as they are owned by Chrysler. Too much competition for RAM.
 
#41 ·
Actually, demand for the JK-8 Independence kit has been more than double expected. They've sold about 1000 them so far, IIRC. (Which doesn't sound like much, but it's about 5x as many Brute kits AEV has sold so far)

The conversion kit was for the same reason as many other recent Mopar projects, from the latest Jeep Safari prototypes to kits like the JK-8 Independence and Ram Runner-they don't have the money or engineering resources right now to design real niche vehicles, since the bread-and-butter Chrysler models need the work a lot more, but the kits can be produced reasonably quickly and easily and give Chrysler a good idea as to whether there's real demand for these products, or if it's just the Internet overstating demand.
 
#42 ·
Very true on all points. I'd add that selling 1000 in under a year isn't too bad when you consider it's an extra cost over top of a Wrangler Unlimited.

That said, I do think the demand for a Jeep pickup is in fact, the internet overstating the demand. A vehicle like that would easily be in the $30-40k range, maybe more, and it seems like a lot of the people who clamor for something like that are also the types who complain that new Jeeps are too expensive and have too much stuff in them.

The Grand Wagoneer will sell more, and sell at higher margin than a Wrangler type pickup would.
 
#43 ·
If they were to do it today, a Wrangler pickup would cost that much, yeah. But if introduced with a new platform designed to accommodate it, prices would be in-line with the rest of the lineup.

One thing Chrysler is, arguably, the world leader in is flex manufacturing. The WK Grand Cherokee/XK Commander and the LX 300 and Charger/LY Challenger are excellent examples.

A Gladiator certainly wouldn't be a volume model, but when sold both in North America and overseas, it has its place. Plus, the Ford Ranger is gone and the Chevy Colorado may or may not be sold in North America. There's still a place for compact pickups.

A Grand Wagoneer will certainly have a wider margin, but, as it stands, the Durango sells ~50,000 a year, and it starts way cheaper than the Grand Wagoneer would. The Grand Wagoneer is a ~5,000 a year model, optimistically. A Gladiator would still only be ~30,000 a year model, but Chrysler's models and their associated plant costs have typically amortized to 100,000 units a year to remain profitable-as long as the Wrangler stays near its present sales numbers, the Gladiator can afford to be a niche model.

That said, depending on the optioning, there's certainly an opportunity for it to turn into a popular fleet model-the main reason that fleet buyers loved the Ford Ranger was because it was cheap, simple, basic, rugged and efficient. If the Gladiator's base trim stays in-line with typical Wrangler base trims, especially if the rumours of a Rhinoliner interior option are true, it could reach the price point to take over that market.

Niche models on their own platforms are almost never profitable, but if you can work an existing profitable platform to suit, then they usually make sense-the Ford Raptor is a perfect example of this. Not to mention all the modern muscle cars-the Challenger, Camaro and Mustang are all based off of popular full-size sedans (The Dodge Charger, Holden Commodore and Ford Falcon, respectively)
 
#44 ·
I think you're overestimating how many people would buy a pickup, and underestimating how many will buy the GW. The Commander sold 88k in 06, not even a full model year, despite being heavy, not that spacious, not that nice inside, and expensive. A GW will pull in conquest buyers from luxury makes just like the top trim levels of the GC (I personally hadn't considered a Jeep other than an SRT8, and was looking at Lexuses or Land Rovers, but the Overland flat out beat the competition in my eyes, let alone the price bonus).

Midsize trucks have died of because only the Japanese have figured out how to sell them alongside fullsize trucks. All the Americans gave up because nobody wants to spend $30k on a midsize pickup when they can get a nice full size for the same money.
 
#45 ·
You're off on the price of the Grand Wagoneer, though. The Commander sold for between $28,000 and $40,000 for the most part, the Grand Wagoneer wouldn't even start below $50,000.

And, no offense, but if you're looking at, and I'm assuming able to afford, BMWs and Range Rovers, you're not the average Jeep consumer. Most Jeeps retail in the $25,000 mark. The Grand Wagoneer will start around $50,000 and probably move off lots around the $60,000-$70,000 range. IIRC, loaded models will be pushing $100,000-half again as much as a loaded Grand Cherokee SRT-8.

As for compact trucks, the American offerings have all had their respective problems, much more important than price tags. The Ranger hadn't had a real update since the early '90s. The Colorado/Canyon had two engine choices that were both awful. The Dakota, in the end, was uglier than a bag of smashed buttholes and was within $1000 of a similarly-equipped Ram 1500 and didn't offer a significant mileage increase.

The Tacoma and Frontier have two things on their side-an appropriate scaling of their larger predecessors, in all respects, and their brand names-Toyota and Nissan are both known for compact pickups and have 50 years of North American sales to back it up-it's the same reason why the Titan and Tundra have largely been sales failures, despite being generally competitive (The Titan's really falling behind, but the Tundra is still decent)-the domestics have 90 years of sales recognition behind it.

Nobody wants a $30,000 starting pickup, no. But they do want ones that start in the 20s-a Gladiator, priced competitively with the Wrangler Unlimited and the Tacoma
 
#46 ·
I don't see the GW actually being as expensive as you're thinking. I think you'll see a base model (well equipped - akin to a Limited or maybe Laredo X starting at $38-41k or so - a $5k premium over a GC Laredo X or Limited. I expect the ~ $5k premium over the GC to exist along the model lineup, maybe expanding if they're able to add in features the WK2 lacks.

Jeep has seen the dismal failure of the WK2 SRT8, despite the fact that it's a great vehicle. I'm sure they're not wanting to price themselves out of the competition again with the Wagoneer. To put it into perspective, an ML550 equipped like a GC Overland V8 4x4 is $70k, a premium of $25k over the $45k WK2 Overland. A comparably equipped GL450 (note that I didn't use the GL550 model because it adds a host of AMG tuning upgrades over the 450 which increase it's price significantly) would cost $75k, so if we assume an upcharge of $3k for the 550 engine, and assume that the Jeep will attempt to keep the same $25k price advantage, a GW V8 4x4 Overland model would work out to $53k, $8k more than the same vehicle in a GC,

I'm not sure why people seem to think the GW is going to be starting at higher pricing than Range Rovers, or full on German luxury cars. Marchionne and crew aren't so stupid as to think that they can bring out a new GW and be considered on the same level. They will price the GW at a large discount over it's European competition, and considering the GL/ML share os much in common wit the GW/GC, it's logical to assume that a similar price differential will exist.
 
#47 ·
I have no clue how they are going price this. However, I'd think if Jeep really wanted to knock one out of the park with the GW they'd make it a capable offroad machine with plenty of space and luxury. No low profile tires, no "hip" street smart styling. Make it a real deal machine that will get you through a Rocky Mountain blizzard in the lap of luxury. Pitch it to the ski resort crowd. Realize that it's going to be the one vehicle they aren't going to be able to do much with in terms of fuel economy. Make the base model available with the small Hemi, and the upgrade with the big one. Then just try to undercut the Escalade by 5k on each trim level. Plus, some really kick*ss movie placing. Too bad it's so far out until we'll see this vehicle. A feature in the new Bond flick would have made sure it was a success.
 
#49 ·
Agreed! But you can also include outdoorsman like hunters, fisherman, campers, boaters. I would also say increase the tow capacity to like 10.5K- 12K and add a 6spd auto with a nice turbo diesel. And with all of the crazy weather we been having, some nice ground clearance, waterproofing wires and like 400-600 watt power converter so you can power your house when power goes out lol.
 
#48 ·
From what I have read about the GW the pricing should start where the Grand cherokee Overland leaves off, Which would mean about a 43K starting point on the GW. I think it does need to be offroad capable like all jeeps but it also needs a first class interior. I guess we should know in less than a year where they are going with it.
 
#53 ·
Hmmm...I know this is completely off and waaaaayyyy to cool for Chrysler to do. What if they actually released the J12 and build a Wagon version and used that as the GW? It would look incredible, be completely capable, and have plenty of room for seating. In a way it's really too bad that Jeep is owned by Chrysler. If they put out a line up like this I think they could easily dominate most other companies. One small sized SUV along the lines of the old KJ, The Wrangler, Wrangler 4dr, a Wrangler Pick Up (JK8, but not a kit) more inline with the original Willys style line up. Then the higher end models the GC, The Fullsize J12 Pick Up and the GW built off that platform. I think Jeep would draw many, many customers from other lines. Really the only thing they wouldn't be offering is a passenger car and a sportscar. Neither of which have much place in the brand anyhow. A dream, and something that could never happen while Jeep is owned by another Automaker, but wow, would that be a killer line up.
 
#54 ·
Sales of truck based luxury SUVs are slipping. More and more luxury buyers are realizing they don't tow a 40 foot boat, and so they don't need a full size truck frame. They tend to enjoy the better ride of a more conventional crossover type design, and the automakers are able to deliver better driving dynamics with the crossover foundation. It tends to improve the fuel economy and performance as well.

The latest murmurs are that the Grand Wagoneer will in fact be priced only a modest amount over the Grand Cherokee, and will not offer the lower trim levels the GC offers, so base price will seem much higher, because the base model will be equivalent to a moderately optioned GC. I think the rendering Allpar has of the GW in white is starting to look about right. I'm sure the front and rear will look a good bit different, but I think hat general shape is going to be a big hit, it's classy yet conservative and functional.
 
#56 ·
Not any time soon. There hasn't been a single platform or powertrain mule spotted, which means that it's at least two years away. It may not be coming at all. It may replace the Durango when the platform is due for a refresh in the next 4 years or so. It may have turned into a Wrangler-based project. There's no solid word on it.
 
#57 ·
Thanks for the update (we all appreciate the informed updates.) Isn't Chrysler/Jeep laying out their business plan on Oct 30th? Would love to hear about what they are planning.
 
#58 ·
They are, but I wouldn't bet on anything Grand Wagoneer-related then. It's going to be more about near-future major launches (200 replacement, Liberty replacement, new Alfa Romeos, ect) and production capacity shuffling (What's going to be built in Europe and such).

Still, you never know-the new leadership at Chrysler/Fiat plays things VERY close to the chest, because market conditions are necessitating change at a very rapid rate. Honestly, we won't get a hard, 100% confirmation on the Grand Wagoneer's existence until at most a year before sale date and any hard data on it until a few months before.
 
#59 ·
Why can't they just use the old body style with modern suspension and drive train components? Love it or hate it, the old GW is iconic and is pretty much a timeless design. Of course in the end, it will probably end up much the same as the Commander (basically the discontinued Cherokee revamped and enlarged for a market that didn't exist) so I figure the new GW to be a visually similar but slightly larger version of the GC.

Porsche isn't the only maker out there that can keep the same basic body style in production with success. I believe Jeep could do it with the original style GW.
 
#60 ·
Why can't they just use the old body style with modern suspension and drive train components?
Crash regulations, aerodynamic requirements, the fact that the tooling was turned into scrap decades ago, assembly line restrictions and about a million other reasons.
 
#62 ·
Model evolution is natural, I don't see the problem with changing cosmetics.. frankly a lot of retrofuturistic designs kinda stink:




We humans have a strange relationship with nostalgia. One thing I really miss on.. uh.. "vintage" SUV's was their weight/exterior dimensions/interior dimensions relationship. I stripped a 91 Trooper down to about 3000lbs and stuffed 33" tires under it (at stock height, with stock gearing) - it was roomy and it had some decent pep considering its little 120 horsepower V6, and it fit down any trail due to its diminutive exterior dimensions. Big time nostalgia for that thing, but:
  • the boxy shape that gave it such great space efficiency meant its coefficient of drag was probably in the .6's, unacceptable for modern fuel efficiency standards and wind noise levels.
  • the absence of air conditioning, meaningful insulation, crumple zones/collision 'safety cage', passive restraints, power anything, and "interior refinement" that enabled its light weight and relative pep from a modest powerplant would get utterly shredded by 99% of shoppers/reviewers/anyone in today's market
  • the flexy suspension that conformed so well to trails in the hands of a competent driver would be regarded as unacceptable in today's litigious society of blaming manufacturers for driver incompetence.
  • the boxed-frame chassis, load-ready leaf springs and tall step-in height that made it so versatile and durable under heavy use would be viewed as entirely unacceptable by today's shoppers and reviewers.

I do find it depressing that so many cars are being built to be everything to everyone. I know a good all 'rounder is a great thing, but I often wish that a manufacturer would have the stones to flatly say "stop driving 4x4's around carelessly and then complaining that they don't handle as well as a 'Vette and acting like we're the incompetent jerks in this equation" - however until someone at the helm of an automobile manufacturer comes up with a diplomatic way to say that and the stones to actually do so, we're going to be given vehicles built entirely on compromise.

That said, the Grand Wagoneer concept seems like a reasonable offering. I think building it as a machine intended to start a legacy (as in, buy it today, take your kids to daycare in it and watch them take their kids to daycare in it later) would be a good move for Jeep... and charge a premium for that sort of class, character and quality. Making just another trim package for the Grand Cherokee would be silly.
 
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