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KL Liberty/Cherokee

11K views 30 replies 14 participants last post by  JeepN4KC 
#1 ·
A replacement for the Cherokee medium SUV, called the Liberty in the United States, that will go into production in the United States in early 2013 and will be exported to Europe by spring 2013. The SUV will use a 170-hp, 2.0-liter four-cylinder gasoline engine.
http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20110502/RETAIL07/305029961/1422#ixzz1LCOUDEQK

Seems like the Cherokee name could return to North America too. It will be sad to see the Cherokee name on something like this. It needs at least a small Pentastar V6 instead of a 2.0 4 cylinder.
 
#2 ·
will be interesting to see what they come up with

also curious about the following

Jeep's first small SUV, a Fiat-based "baby" Wrangler that may be built in Toluca, Mexico, for sale in Europe, North America and Latin America starting in late 2013 or early 2014.
 
#3 ·
And the Patriot/Compass replacement gets built in Italy. America is really going to go for Jeeps made in Mexico and Italy.
I guess I ought to change that. Jeep fans are really going to go for foreign made Jeeps.
 
#5 ·
Every Jeep after the SJ Wagoneers/Gladiators save the CJ/Wrangler has been 'car-based'. Your XJ is 'car-based'.

All 'car-based' means is unibody.
 
#6 ·
The XJ is actually car based 100% its plate form came from the AMC Eagle's IIRC it was the wagon's chassie . . . The SX/4 has D30 IFS front end not sure about the Wagons . . .

Mike
 
#12 ·
The XJ is actually car based 100% its plate form came from the AMC Eagle's IIRC it was the wagon's chassie . . .
The XJ Cherokee was a brand new vehicle designed by Jeep and Renault to be an SUV from the start. It was one of the first Computer Aided Design (CAD) vehicles and was the first Jeep with a ladder-boxed chassis integrated into a single monocoque unit body (unibody) rather than the traditional separate body-on-frame construction. It shared next to nothing with the AMC Eagle besides an updated version of the in-line six cylinder Jeep 4.0L 242 CI I6 RENIX FI motor starting in 1987, and a leaf spring mounted D35 solid axle.

The XJ does have a "frame", but it is Unibody construction. It has solid front and rear axles and a high/low shift on the fly transfer case.

Early AMC 1980's Eagles were full-time, all-wheel drive cars. A few years later a switchable 2wd/4wd system was introduced, but shifting between those modes required the Eagle to be fully stopped and it had no low range. "Shift-on-the-Fly" capability was added to the Select Drive 4-wheel-drive system as standard equipment in 1985.
 
#15 ·
I wonder if that means they sprung for as much as there already paying for halfshalfs when they move production down to mexico like there so rumored to be moving production down to,maybe that means driving on a dirt road might not void the warranty on the drivetrain,lmfao
 
#19 ·
Just met with a couple Chrysler guys that are working with the KL platform. They pretty much confirmed that it is going to be built off of the Fiat PF platform and use the 2.0L or 1.4L Turbo 4-cylinder engines. It is going to be somewhat similar to the Alfa Romeo Giulietta but about 3" wider and a taller stance to fit the drive line. No word on what 4x2 or 4x4 system will be used in it though. Kinda disappointing IMO but they did say that the interior will be really cool :rolleyes:

Edit: It is also supposed to start rolling out early 2014
 
#20 ·
Here's an idea, instead of Fiat calling it a Liberty or a Cherokee maybe they can call it a Rouge or RAV - wait those names are taken.

A 2.0L 170hp 4 cylinder I wonder how long that engine will last before it fries.

I understand about building some vehicles to cater to the mainstream, but in addition to the Wrangler can they at least build some versions of these new vehicles that have some nice off-road features other than stupid decals and paint and rims?

I remember reading the car manual from my 70' Chevelle Malibu and you could get a 6 engine options and 3 transmission options. And if you came across a Chevelle with SS decals on it, it meant something more. - The good old days - sorry reminiscing a bit.
 
#21 ·
#22 ·
POWERTRAIN mule, body has zero resemblance to what the final product will look like.

As for that, it could either be a Liberty or Patriot/Compass mule. Possibly both, since the Liberty is being build on an upscaled version of the C-Evo.
 
#23 ·
I find it hard to believe that the next Liberty will be on a FWD platform. The difference between the Compass and Liberty will now be the same as the difference between the Rav4 and Highlander...great.

Sidenote: Why do car companies with a strong heritage insist on destroying it to "break into new markets"? My list of cars I'm not interested in buying include the Jeep Compass and the Porsche Cayenne. Why? Because Jeep is well known for building off-roaders and Porsche is well known for building sports cars. The Compass is no off-roader, & the Cayenne is no sports car. It used to be enough to say you drove a Jeep or a Porsche, and people had a good mental image of your car. Now, it's just as generic as saying you drive Toyota. Let Dodge sell Calibers and VW sell Tourags. Argh, my list keeps growing - Range Rover Evoque, Ferrari FF, etc.
 
#24 ·
The thing is, there's no room for 'specialty' brands any more. Even Lamborghini and Aston Martin are bringing out sedans and SUVs. The Cayenne almost outsells every other Porsche combined, and outsells the 911 about 2-to-1.

The Cayenne is what pays for the specialty vehicles and the race cars.

The new Grand Cherokee is the best-selling one in a long time, and the best-selling vehicle Jeep makes. The Wrangler Unlimited makes up 60% of the sales numbers (Maybe more, that split is from '08), the Compass and Patriot combined sell almost as many as the Grand and the Wrangler now that they're not miserable little ugly crapboxes.

They break into new markets because the old ones are no longer sustainable. Back in the '90s, the same uproar was heard when the original Grand Cherokee came out, and it very quickly because Jeep's best-selling vehicle, and the only reason the brand survived back then.

Big, squishy off-roaders pay for Porsche's hard-core cars, and big, squishy off-roaders pay for Wranglers, too. Welcome to the modern automotive market, enjoy your stay.

And what's the harm in making squishy vehicles if they still make the hard-core ones? I know plenty of guys, myself included, who would buy a Patriot, for example, as an efficient DD and a parts hauler for a Wrangler, so I only need to drive it when I want to and don't waste its lifespan on pavement, but I'd never buy a Patriot if it was a Dodge, even if it was completely identical save for the badges on the front. Yeah, I know Jeep's missing a lot of the hardcore vehicles they used to have-but the Gladiator was killed by Chrysler because it wasn't needed with Dodge, the Comanche was killed because the Dakota was still a good truck then and the dealers actually asked for it instead, the Grand Cherokee was turned soft by Mercedes and the Cherokee turned into the Liberty because of consumer demand-the original Liberty outsold the Cherokee by a noticeable margin.
 
#25 ·
and the Cherokee turned into the Liberty because of consumer demand-the original Liberty outsold the Cherokee by a noticeable margin.
For a short period of time. Then sales dropped off. Cherokee sales stayed fairly high for the entire 17 year run.
 
#26 ·
I'll pull up some stats I posted on Allpar on a similar subject-the sales of individual SUVs are down everywhere because there are so many on the market now.

In '99, there were 37 SUVs for sale on the market. If you remove luxury and rare vehicles (Land Rovers, Mercs, ect), here's what you get:

Chevrolet Suburban/Tahoe/GMC Yukon/Yukon XL
Dodge Durango
Ford Explorer/Mercury Mountaineer
Honda CR-V
Honda Passport
Izuzu Rodeo
Jeep Cherokee
Toyota Land Cruiser
Toyota 4Runner
Toyota RAV-4
Nissan Pathfinder
GMC Jimmy/Envoy/Chevrolet Blazer

And here's every vehicle that competes with a Jeep model sold today:

Acura MDX
Audi Q5
Audi Q7
Buick Enclave
BMW X5
BMW X6
Cadillac SRX
Chevrolet Equinox
Chevolet Tahoe
Dodge Durango
Ford Edge
Ford Escape
Ford Expedition
Ford Explorer
Ford Flex
GMC Acadia
GMC Terrain
GMC Yukon
Honda CR-V
Honda Pilot
Hyundai Santa Fe
Hyundai Tuscon
Hyundai Veracruz
Infiniti FX
Infiniti QX
Jeep Compass
Jeep Patriot
Jeep Liberty
Jeep Wrangler Unlimited
Kia Sportage
Kia Sorrento
Land Rover Discovery
Land Rover Freelander
Land Rover Range Rover Sport
Land Rover Range Rover
Land Rover Range Rover Evoque
Lincoln MKT
Lincoln MKX
Lincoln Navigator
Mazda CX-7
Mazda CX-9
Mazda Tibute
Mercedes G
Mercedes GL
Mercedes GLK
Mercedes M
Mercedes R
Mitsubishi Endeavor
Mitsubishi Outlander
Nissan Armada
Nissan Murano
Nissan Pathfinder
Nissan Rogue
Nissan X-Terra
Nissan X-Trail
Porsche Cayenne
Suzuki Grand Vitara
Toyota 4Runner
Toyota FJ Cruiser
Toyota Land Cruiser
Toyota RAV-4
Toyota Sequioa
VW Tiguan
VW Touraeg
Volvo XC60
Volvo XC70
Volvo XC90

Again, even if you take out the luxury SUVs (Which many CJDR dealers I've heard from, are competing with the Grand Cherokee now-on Allpar, we've got a dealer who's had Land Rovers, a Porsche Cayenne and a few Japanese and American luxury SUVs traded in on Grand Cherokees), there are twice as many SUVs and CUVs on the market today as there were back then.

Plus, while SUVs are a larger percentage of the market, the market is smaller overall-16.5 million new cars sold in '99, 13 million in '11.

I miss the Cherokee too. The KJ was a decent substitute, but not much of a replacement, but the KK is kind of sad. The KL is going a completely different track, but that may or may not be to make room for a wagon-bodied version of the Wrangler Unlimited, one of the possible new 'Wrangler derivatives' they're talking about building.
 
#27 ·
I think the reason I, along with several others, don't like the KL "prototype" if you will, is because it appears that outside of the Wrangler, Jeep is moving further from it's roots just to capture a new audience.

I feel like I'm talking to my daughters when I say:

If you have to change who you are in order to get people to like you - it's time to take a long hard look at who it is you're hoping to appeal to.
 
#28 ·
Not to be a ******, but that's a slightly ironic opinion for someone who's owned 2 WKs and a KK to hold.

Yes, both are more quintessentially Jeep than the next Compass/Patriot and Liberty, but still.

The thing is, a lot of people believe, mistakenly, that the Grand Cherokee (And the Grand Wagoneer before it) were built to be simple, rugged, mountain-climbing machines.

This is wrong.

They were designed to be the exact same thing that the WKII and, probably, the KL, do-be as luxurious as you can while still being capable off-roaders.

The Grand Wagoneer had solid front axles because independent suspension for trucks plain didn't exist. In fact, the Grand Wagoneer (And Gladiator) were some of, possibly the, first trucks to be available with IFS. Reportedly, nobody bought it because it was crappy and expensive.

The Grand Cherokee ZJ was the same story. Again, independent suspension in trucks and SUVs wasn't there yet. Almost all of its competition had solid front and rear, too.

The WJ retained the solid axles, because it was cheaper for Jeep engineers to tinker with it to remain comfortable than re-engineer the whole platform.

Can a solid axled vehicle be comfortable? Yes. Are independent suspensions universally more comfortable, and worse off-road? Hell no. Are solid axles considered archaic by 95% of consumers? Very yes.

The Wrangler is still a true Jeep, and always will be. Yes, it's disappointing that a proper Cherokee replacement no longer really exists, even though the Patriot, Grand Cherokee and Wrangler Unlimited cover 90% of its former customer base. But there's no reason to build softer models if that's what the consumers want-otherwise, Jeep would be yet another dead car brand.

What a lot of people fail to understand is that Jeep's old markets have all since left.

The military? The smallest vehicles that currently fit the role of the old MBs and M38s are Mercedes G-Wagons and Land Rover Wolfs, and they're rapidly being phased out, along with HMMWVs, by MRAPs. The J8 is useful in some places, and might wind up replacing the HMMWV and DPV for US Special Forces, but there's no place for a 'real Jeep' in a modern military, not in the scale and depth it used to.

Commercial, agricultural, industrial and off-highway use? It's been split up. Side-by-sides and UTVs have replaced it as a small hauler and runabout. Small utility tractors have replaced it as an small instrument hauler and PTO source.

As a hobby vehicle? Again, back to the side-by-side.

A brand needs to evolve or die. Frankly, it's amazing that the Wrangler is still as profitable as it is-and that's entirely because of the 75,000-and-growing 4-doors they sell every year.

Enzo Ferrari once said that 'The Jeep is America's only true sports car.', and, when it comes to the classic, SWB versions, that's a very apt comparison-like a Ferrari, everybody loves them, but only a handful of people every year can justify owning one. As someone who's only car is a TJ, driving it every day blows. It's the best thing in the world when the top's off, the sun is shining and I'm tooling around some old logging road, but when it's -40*C, I'm hammering on the ignition just to start it and giving myself frostbite holding the steering wheel because the heater core needs about 20 minutes of movement to start pumping out heat, the top is making a bunch of sqeeking noises, every bump rattles the whole vehicle, if I hit a patch of ice, I slide around like I'm skating, even with snow tires, the noises coming from the drivetrain would be death noises from any other car, but are normal for a Jeep but no less annoying...it's mornings like that when I really, really want to go buy one of the cheap stripper Patriots at the local dealership, so I can afford to leave the TJ in a nice car tent and be able to work on it at my leisure and drive it only when I want to.

Maybe when you live in the South, where it's warm all year around and doesn't rain much, where you can go topless with a jacket in January, DDing a Wrangler is great. But above the snow line? It's really tiring some days.

And that's why Jeep needs some softer vehicles.
 
#29 ·
^^^ I don't see how it's "ironic." We bought our first Jeep, the 06 WK, because we always wanted a Jeep, liked the GC, and have two kids. Took it for a test drive and loved it. It fit our needs and wants. But that doesn't mean we expected it to buggy over boulders.

The GC has morphed into something that you almost wouldn't want to take off the pavement. In fact, I would venture to say with the IFS and solid rear, the WK could be the last off-road capable GC. (Not baggin the WK2 cause I really don't know how it does- just sayin the WK at least maintained one solid axle)

My point is the Jeep name has always had a rugged canotation and promoted taking the road less traveled and with the move toward the "softer" vehicles, as you say, that road less traveled is getting left behind.

I agree that companies have to evolve - and simply evolving on the off-road front wouldn't be smart or sustainable on Jeep's part. But other makers have nearly always tried to copy/imitate/compete with the Jeep brand and now it just looks like the tables have turned - at least begun to.

Maybe it's a good thing - don't know and only time will tell. Maybe it's a move to exclusively brand the Wrangler as THE true off-road capable Jeep.
Kind of like what Dodge did with the Ram truck. I could see that, no? Imagine commercials and ads for "Wrangler" - no Jeep attached, just "Wrangler." :dunno:
 
#30 ·
My point about irony is that the WK and KK are generally pointed out as the vehicles where Jeep started to lose its way by the mainliners. I personally kinda like both, but still.

IFS/IRS can be just as capable off-road as solid axles for most off-roading. The Grand Cherokee is limited by a lot other factors before the suspension choice.

The WKII made it over the Rubicon trail and Moab with as much trouble as you'd expect a completely stock Grand Cherokee to. (Bashed in the lip spoiler a bit, but otherwise OK). It's every bit as capable as the Jeeps that preceded it-it's just that it uses an entirely more complicated system to do so. One that exists in the name of ride quality, but still.

Nobody takes a new Grand Cherokee off-road, because nobody takes $30,000+ cars anywhere that stands a not-insignificant chance of seriously damaging it.

The defining feature of Jeep, in the passenger vehicle marketplace, has always been that they've been the most off-road capable vehicles on the market. And, with only a few possible exceptions, that holds true. The Wrangler is still the best in its class. The Grand Cherokee can beat anything in its class too. The Liberty...it's as good as anything, but not definitively better. The Patriot and Compass are both significantly better, but they're in a class not known for off-road capability (Although they're a LOT better than you'd expect-a buddy of mine in Winnipeg has an '07 FDI Patriot, and the only problem with it off-road is the weak-titty CVT/2.4L combo).

Jeep and Wrangler will never be seperated-if anything, it'll go the other way, everything save the Wrangler will be moved into another brand if something like that ever happened (Not likely, but still). Here's why: point at a Wrangler and ask the nearest person 'What kind of vehicle is that?' 99% of the time, whether they know it's called a Wrangler or not, they'll call it a Jeep. In many languages, 'jeep' is their word for SUV, and in English it isn't just a brand or a vehicle, it's a word for any short, rugged SUV.

The reason that nobody has ever successfully competed with Jeep in North America is because they lack the cachet-Jeep is probably the most American brand in existence, and the Wrangler is definitely tied for first for the most American vehicle (3-way tie between a pickup, a muscle car and a Jeep)
 
#31 ·
My point about irony is that the WK and KK are generally pointed out as the vehicles where Jeep started to lose its way by the mainliners. I personally kinda like both, but still.

IFS/IRS can be just as capable off-road as solid axles for most off-roading. The Grand Cherokee is limited by a lot other factors before the suspension choice.

The WKII made it over the Rubicon trail and Moab with as much trouble as you'd expect a completely stock Grand Cherokee to. (Bashed in the lip spoiler a bit, but otherwise OK). It's every bit as capable as the Jeeps that preceded it-it's just that it uses an entirely more complicated system to do so. One that exists in the name of ride quality, but still.

Nobody takes a new Grand Cherokee off-road, because nobody takes $30,000+ cars anywhere that stands a not-insignificant chance of seriously damaging it.

The defining feature of Jeep, in the passenger vehicle marketplace, has always been that they've been the most off-road capable vehicles on the market. And, with only a few possible exceptions, that holds true. The Wrangler is still the best in its class. The Grand Cherokee can beat anything in its class too. The Liberty...it's as good as anything, but not definitively better. The Patriot and Compass are both significantly better, but they're in a class not known for off-road capability (Although they're a LOT better than you'd expect-a buddy of mine in Winnipeg has an '07 FDI Patriot, and the only problem with it off-road is the weak-titty CVT/2.4L combo).

Jeep and Wrangler will never be seperated-if anything, it'll go the other way, everything save the Wrangler will be moved into another brand if something like that ever happened (Not likely, but still). Here's why: point at a Wrangler and ask the nearest person 'What kind of vehicle is that?' 99% of the time, whether they know it's called a Wrangler or not, they'll call it a Jeep. In many languages, 'jeep' is their word for SUV, and in English it isn't just a brand or a vehicle, it's a word for any short, rugged SUV. The reason that nobody has ever successfully competed with Jeep in North America is because they lack the cachet-Jeep is probably the most American brand in existence, and the Wrangler is definitely tied for first for the most American vehicle (3-way tie between a pickup, a muscle car and a Jeep)
That's a great point.

I agree about the WK and KK being perhaps the "beginning of the slide" but I think the advent of the Compass, Patriot, KL, whatever others they come up with just reaffirms the slide.
As far as the WK2 - exactly my point - the GC didn't start out being "too nice" to take off road. (though I guess that's debatable if one did an analysis of what it cost vs cost of living from say 15 years ago) Like you said though, the newest model went through the Rubicon/Moab journeys.
I suppose I should point out it wasn't my intention to suggest that the KL was the "game changer" when it comes to Jeep's identity crisis - if that's what this can be called. I was only saying that as they introduce more of these types of vehicles, Jeep is mutating into something less appealing to many of its core supporters. At least as far as "new arrivals" are concerned.

BTW - glad I jumped in on this thread. :D
 
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