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110v welder able to burn spring perches?

12K views 46 replies 16 participants last post by  Ironworker709 
#1 ·
I have a smaller Lincoln 135.

I run fluxcore, and have made sliders, bumper mods, some trailer decking, but nothing real thick.

I need to put some spring perches on my rear d44. There are some on it now that I've been running, but my driveline angle is off, hard on u joints, so it's time to fix it proper. I have new spring perches.

I was thinking if I pull the axle, get it very cleaned up, and after getting it all set/measured, I could turn up the welder all the way and mount the spring perches.

Should I consider finding a welder with more heat? This would be my thickest metal welded after 3/16" on my trailer. I trust my ability to run a good bead, but not sure about penetration.

Thanks for any thoughts or advise.
 
#2 ·
Should no problem.. I have used my miller 135 to weld perches on before I got my 230. Just take it slow so the heat sinks in.. I know when I did it I got the tubes orange so it should be plenty hot enough..
 
#4 ·
Those D44 tubes are 1/4" thick and large areas.. they'll whisk away heat quickly. If it were my axle, I think I'd tack the perches in place with the little welder and find somebody with a 220 welder to burn 'em in good.

If you were closer, I'd say just swing by the shop and I'd hit them with my Miller 210... I do it all the time for the local guys.
 
#5 ·
X2..any 110 volt welder just doesnt get much heat going for 1/4",let alone a spring perch where you're life depends on it,plus if it breaks on hard trails you'll be repairing more than just spring perches...

I also had a Lincoln 135,did a great job on alot of things,but i would of never trusted it to weld anything suspension/drivetrain wise.
 
#6 ·
I appreciate the thoughts all. I'll get it all measured and ready then tack them. I had a ton of offers from guys in our club but nothings easy living in the sticks, and all the club members are all spread out and an hour north.

Thanks
Blair
 
#14 ·
Hey, if you have 220 and beer... maybe they'll come to you!
 
#8 ·
Dunno. I think for my purposes 110v would hold, but it can't hurt to go hotter with all the dudes in our group who have 220v available.

Just gotta take it apart and clean it up, get it ready to go.
 
#11 ·
Plus, it's kind of a PITA to reweld a perch that busted the weld.. you gotta try and clean the area up and weld around the Ubolts.. or remove them again. With something like a perch, why gamble?.. especially if the axle is coming out from under the vehicle already. Not all that much trouble to toss it in a truck/trunk and have someone burn it in with some power.
 
#12 ·
it will be fine, just take your time, 98% of my suspension was burned in by me with my 140, and the only thing to come back apart on me has been something that I got in a hurry and forgot to finish burning in, it was only tacked in place, and still lasted longer than it should have
 
#13 ·
Just take you time to weld them on I welded on a semi axle with a 140 amp 110 welder with no problems. Now I did do 3 passes but it do the job. So I'm sure you can get away with a 110v 135 amp welder. Even when you do have a 220v 185 amp welder you are not running the welder all the way up so 135 amps is the same weather at 110v or 220v. Granted you can weld long period of time with the 220v welder then the 110v. Now I would suggest to get .035 wire to weld with not .030 wire. Set you wire speed till you have a nice sizzle while welding. No popping or spitting as you weld. If you have doughts about your single pass then do 3 passes.One in the middle of the joints then one above and another below you first pass.
 
#15 ·
It never ceases to amaze me the guys that will argue welding do's and don't's with guys that do this stuff for a living. It would be like me telling my flight instructor with 5,000 + hrs that he doesn't know WTF he is talking about with stall recovery because I stayed in a Holiday Inn last night and my home built AC hasn't had the wings fall off yet in 10hrs of flight time.

Taking shortcuts on a safety item/system is a sure fire way to ensure a less than favorable out come. If something ever does break loose resulting in an accident, you had better hope that they over look the shoddy welds. If the accident results in a fatality better believe the State Police and the Ins. Co. are going to be looking at everything with a fine tooth comb. Is saving $60-$100 dollars worth that? Criminal negligence and the civil liabilities would seem to out weigh the "easy fix".
But hey, I slept in a Holiday Inn once or twice, what do I know...
 
#17 ·
I'm not arguing with anyone nor am I discounting them either. But people have to understand. It's not what you have it's how you use it that can make the difference. Just because the pro's in here think that their way is the only way to weld. Just that a welder is going to do the same weather it's 220v or 110v at the same amperage. Granted the 220v welder will be able to do a long weld at one time vs the 110v welder. Now I would like to know that the pro's that weld in here for a living what amperage that they weld at when welding perched on a axle. First of all you still have only a certain thickness of materiel on the perch itself. That is all the strength you are going to have for strength. Which I have not seen to be no thicker than 1/4 inch being (most are 3/16 inch) welded to a tube that is about 3/8 inch thick. Too much is as bad as too little.
 
#16 ·
#27 ·
OK I have looked through this website. Most of it has to do to robotic welding from what I have seen. And poor decisions made of manufactures. First thing I would have to say I can out think any robot out there. Second I can correct how I do something myself with outside intervention. Having be shown how to weld by experts in the field of welding. Third I have a standard that is better than excepted by manufactures.

Now to say I not only look at one side of what I have welded but the back side also. Being sorta self taught does have a lot of advantages because you learn through your failures. I know what my limitation are. Also know the limitation of my equipment. Have stated this before.

I'm sorry I should have stated the too much amps in welding changes the strength of the steel. My bad sue me. Brittle or softer is there any great differences both equals the same results FAILURE at some point. There is a fine balance between the two. Just enough to keep from doing either is not that great of a secret.

Has for the challenge I would be more than to oblige to it. But at the present moment my welding equipment is in storage and I'm on the road. I bet that you could do both with using the two different welders or setting your own welder to max and then set to only 140 amp range. Using your normal welding practices and then setting up as I have said using flux core at 135-140 amps setting.Setting for your wire speed to get the sizzle sound. You might be surprised at your results. Like I also state that one might think if doing multi passes when welding with only a 110v welder.
:cheers2:
 
#18 ·
Let's not get all ruffled up fellas.. we're just having a discussion/debate.:cheers2:

I don't tell people what to do.. I tell them what I would do (at least that's what it sounds like in my head :D).

There are numerous areas on a Jeep that I would have no problem welding with a 110v welder, suspension mounting points are normally not on that list. Granted, I can say that because I do have a few 220v welders (stick, MIG and TIG) but even when all I had was a 110v wire feed, I tacked perches on and dragged the axles to someone with a 220 to have 'em burned in.

Eventually I saved pennies, sold parts, did side jobs, and sneaked money from the wife's purse so that I could run down to Lowe's and buy a Lincoln Tombstone on sale for $199. :D
 
#25 ·
I don't tell people what to do.. I tell them what I would do....
I love that! ^^ That would make a great signature! :thumbsup: That's what these forums are all about.

Personally, I find that my 110v wire welder does great up to 1/8" steel... any bigger than that, and I'll break out my 220v stick welder.

However, if I didn't have a stick welder, I think I could do a pretty good job welding spring perches with a 110v wire welder... but that's just me, and only on my own equipment.

For what it's worth, BESRK seems to know his stuff, and he'll tell it to you straight... if you've got someone like him around who will burn it in with high power, you should probably do that.
 
#21 ·
schitzngiggles is dead on.....

You just simply do NOT get anywhere near the amperage/heat on a 110v welder,just because a 110v welder CAN burn .035 wire,does not mean it's gettin the heat to penetrate the axle tube,welding anything like that i crank my Lincoln 180 up as high as it will go and compensate the wire speed for the fill to make sure i am getting the best possible burn in/penetration.

I've had a 110v Lincoln 135 Pro Mig,,and used it for a few years before going with a 220v Lincoln 180 Pro Mig..there just is NO comparison to the heat difference in the 2.

I've even tryed to weld 3/16 with that 110v machine as hot as it would go,the penetration was VERY poor,it liked to lay the weld on top and crown way too much..so i never speak of "textbook" or "internet knowledge"..i've been there..done that..tryed it,,cut it apart just to see the penetration..and it FAILED as far as any real penetration.
The only way you MIGHT get a good solid weld from them with 3/16 or thicker is a good preheat.

This is why i NEVER recommend a 110v welder for suspension or any safety related welding,i weld for a living,30+ years..and even i couldn't get sufficeint penetraion with them for anything like that..

But for welding around the house..fixing riding mowers,,lawn chairs and tables,maybe a truck bumper...etc etc..it worked OK.

Just because you can actualy bevel a base plate and fill the weld 100% does not mean it had got ANY kind of REAL penetration..this is THEE most important part of a weld,,not the "pretty looking" welds,no matter what it looks like,if it didn't penetrate,,it's useless.
 
#23 ·
This is why i NEVER recommend a 110v welder for suspension or any safety related welding,i weld for a living,30+ years..and even i couldn't get sufficeint penetraion with them for anything like that..

But for welding around the house..fixing riding mowers,,lawn chairs and tables,maybe a truck bumper...etc etc..it worked OK.

Just because you can actualy bevel a base plate and fill the weld 100% does not mean it had got ANY kind of REAL penetration..this is THEE most important part of a weld,,not the "pretty looking" welds,no matter what it looks like,if it didn't penetrate,,it's useless.
Well with your statement there. I guess I should remove the tabs I welded for tow bar on the front of the jeep. Which as already logged a few thousand miles on it.

OH by the way I weld these tabs on a piece of 1/4 inch C channel They are 3/16 thick flat steel. In fact I did one just to check my work and method to try to break it off with just a single pass on both side. I broke the flat bar off above the weld after beating on it for about 30 mins bending it back and forth.

Like I said if you know what you are doing and know what the limits of your equipment then you will not have a problem. Oh this was with a 110v hh140 plugged into it's own 110v plug Not on a 30 amp circuit not running any thing else. This is where maybe I can get a little more stability out of a 110v welder. Oh I could care less what the weld looks like.

And since you did make the statement you have been welding for 30 yrs. I will call you on that one. Because you cranked your welder all the way up but never said what welder you are doing this with and how many amps you are welding at. What wire size Because at 180 + amps you are more than likely causing yourself and other a disservice by causing metal to change to a very brittle piece of junk.
 
#24 ·
And since you did make the statement you have been welding for 30 yrs. I will call you on that one. Because you cranked your welder all the way up but never said what welder you are doing this with and how many amps you are welding at. What wire size Because at 180 + amps you are more than likely causing yourself and other a disservice by causing metal to change to a very brittle piece of junk.
180 amps does NOT cause mild steel to turn to a "peice of junk"...:confused:

i already explained it's wide open..Lincoln 180 Pro Mig..10 GAUGE 90 foot cord,.035 hard wire..and fluxcore.

Mild steel can NEVER be "tempered"..if that's what you are TRYING to assume by putting too much heat on it..it's actualy the opposite,,mild steel never gets "brittle" in any welding or heat process,it gets 'softer".

I've welded PLENTY of mild steel with 200+ amps under procedures..brittle?...lol..that makes no sense to me at ALL

I'll weld some scrap 1/4" tomorrow with the 180 Lincoln WIDE open..with fluxcore and hard wire..and take plenty of pics..lets see how it turns out?..

And call bull on my 30+ years?..i geuss you COULD be right there..because it MIGHT be longer..since i started it as a career in 1978 in Wilmington Delaware out of local 451 Wilmington Delaware right out of high school as an apprentice..but before that?..my father was an engineer for the Chrysler Assembly Plant in Newark Delaware and ALWAYS had a few rod projects in the shop and i learned to stick weld at 15 in that garage/shop..so i geuss that would put it at ..what?..35 years or so?...I'm 50 in december..do the math...:2thumbsup:

Bottom line is..folks ALWAYS get upset i don't recommend a small amped 110v welder for safety related welds,...go for it...do what you want!..i don't care..but you'll NEVER see ME agree with what is the NOT the truth...:thumbsup:..and these are PROVEN facts..not opinions...the only proven things otherwise..is SOME people get away with it with preheat..yes you beveled it and filled it 100%..but the FACT still lays there that that low of an amperage did NOT get sufficeint penetration INTO THE BASE METAL as a 220v machine WILL get....did you not read that web page Schitsngiggles posted?..those are ACTUAL photos of poor welds xrayed and cut..but they looked good on top!..

Lets Both call it tomorrow..i'll weld a peice of 1/4" scrap with my 220v..you do it with a 110v...then cut them both with a bandsaw so we can CLEARLY see the penetration on both...take pics of all the process...so we can BOTH see right HERE the actual penetration of both.....:thumbsup:

Lemme know if the "game is on" tomorrow...have a nice night :wave:
 
#22 ·
Well ****... I guess my Jeep should have broken into a million pieces then... ALL done by my HH140:





Would I love to have a 220v welder? You bet! And if I got one I would probably grind out all my weld and hit them again just for peace of mind.... but for the meantime I'm fairly certain mine are "good enough."

Would I recommend others do the same? No... I don't know how well they can weld.

FWIW all the critical things, I bevelled heavily, and made 2 to 3 passes at full heat... all VERY slow.

And for the axle tubes, I used a MAPP torch to heat up the tubes to at least get rid of the "cold" for a little better penetration.

Put 1200 miles on it, wheeled it a little bit and now daily driven.

So I won't say that a 110v CAN'T be used to put some spring perches on by someone that knows how to use it and make up for the welder's inadequacies, but I would recommend a 220v if possible.

My $0.02.
 
#28 ·
you guys under estimate the power the those little linolns put out... with flux core they get plenty of penetration.

my entire jeep is built useing the lincoln 135 with flux core, and so is my buddys XJ on 38s



set the welder on "D" and wire speed between 2 and 3, make a wide slow pass and you wont have any problems. Still have yet to tear anything off my 8.8 or any weld for that matter in two years of wheelin and over 20,000 daily driven miles.

that being said, i consider myself a very proficient welder considering my younge age (22). Ive worked in fab shops since HS doing everything from structural, Aluminum and sanitary stainless... If your not, then i would tack em on and let a professional weld em on... with the 110 welders it as much indian as it is arrow so just be confident youre a good shot:cheers2:
 
#31 ·
True....BUT..as a i stated before..why put a machine at it's limit when using it for things that are safety related where it MIGHT work fine?..or worse yet..give a false sense of confidence that it is safe?.

This subject has been tackled,argued,one way to the other back and forth all over the net and in person,,but it always boils down to the people who DO weld and fabricate for a living are the ones who disagree TOTALY that these 110v machines are sufficeint for anything past 1/4",no matter what the "advertised" potential for a 110v machine for the sales pitch...for a GOOD reason.

When you use .035 wire on a 110v machine,you will have to turn it up as high it will go to get good penetration AND be able to keep up with the heat needed for .035..as i've heard from some who just don't know..turning the wire speed down to "seemingly" make it a hotter pass is a mis-conception..turning the wire speed down only causes the wire to burn off further away from the weldment,causing the heat to be FURTHER way from where it NEEDS to be,IN THE WELDMENT...not above it.
I don't care what anyone suggests about the wire speed,there is only one RIGHT wire speed according the heat being used in the machine and size wire being used..
...too much speed causes the wire to burn IN the puddle,this causes several problems..a fill that LOOKS like its filled,but yet only burned in a little but the extra wire that is being burned is just laying on top of the actual weld where it was actualy "burned in".
Not enough wire speed will cause the wire to burn BEFORE it gets to the needed area needing the penetration,it will cause the puddle to lay high on the weldment,causing very little penetration where needed..it's just laying there..it looks "pretty" because it MAY lay flatter,but it's conceiving to the untrained eye because underneath it did not penetrate INTO the base metal.
All your heat is generated at the VERY tip of the wire/rod being used..so that spot right there HAS to be where the penetration is needed..and with a 110v machine it is MUCH more critical to get that just right,for the fact it just plain old does not generate much heat for thicker material...a 220v is more forgiving,especialy for the amatuer because it generates ALOT more heat to get a BIGGER area of heat and "burn in" and fill,so that insures someone who doesn;t do it every day as a career has that much more insurance that they will get a much better weldment that will hold up...

Bottom line AGAIN..i just plain and simple will NEVER say"sure it's ok,because you have nothing else to use,go ahead and use it,it'll be just fine buddy!"
..i'm a bottom line type of person and NEVER sugar coat,whether it's my family,,freinds or even my worst enemy..i am un-biased when it comes to people and opinions..i never take a side just because he/she is my freind,if i did,,i would be a liar just to take a side to be a freind,and that's not gonna happen with me...:cheers2:
 
#32 ·
Here's a GREAT read and pictures of actual penetration in a few different techniques while welding with wirefeed
These pictures he took clearly shows the REAL penetration as i was trying to explain in here...

Notice on ALL the downhill methods,( i've also been involved in many debates of that VERY POOR method too)there is little to no penetration no matter what heat setting,,and he's using a 220v Miller 251...
You get the same results using a 110v machine on thicker materials,,very LITTLE penetration but sure is a nice looking weld to the eye!

Mig Welding Techniques - for vertical welding - uphill, downhill

This is just give an idea to those who don't know the REAL factor of penetration,not just because it LOOKED good to the eye,you need penetration INTO the base metal itself.....as i was TRYING to explain already.
 
#34 ·
Notice on ALL the downhill methods,( i've also been involved in many debates of that VERY POOR method too)there is little to no penetration no matter what heat setting,,and he's using a 220v Miller 251...
I dont want to get involved in this debate, I did want to mention I don't know what the argument FOR downhill welding could be anyway... Vertical up welding is one of my favorite types, and I think they look better than any v-down, atleast when you know how to run one (as I do).

I suppose the only possible v-down is better with mig argument would be a non structural outside corner, or something like that, with no loads ever.

Back to the screaming about 110 :D
 
#33 ·
Here's something else to consider with the lower amperage welders. I will not argue that many things can be welded with them at thier highest settings that will hold just fine. But... They all operate with a very short duty cycle. Turn them up at the high amps and you may find yourself getting to stop in the middle of a weld that needs to be burned in. Starts and stops make cold spots in the welded joint and they will not be as strong as they should be. You can work around this by not trying to weld everything all at once.

Welding anything that needs to hold together for safety sake is serious business and should be treated as such. I think we all have seen way too many comments on here about people tyrying to skimp and get by.

Sometimes these debates make me miss PRC. :rofl::rofl:
 
#36 ·
Some one mentioned duty cycles. This I under a great deal about. I have seen in this forum every one give what they think is right or wrong. When it says 20% duty cycle that does not mean 1 minute of work time then 20 minutes of cooling off. Actually it's one minute of work and 5 minuted of cool cool down time or multiples there of to about a max of 10 minutes of straight max load. So in the home usage I could not see someone welding for that long at max rating. That is a percent of an hour to be used work time under full load. Even the 220v unit that every one is all over are 30% duty cycles at full load. Which are what most home shops have in them. So with a 30% unit you could weld for 18 minutes out of every hour at max load. Here another little bit of information. Now you could get a 20% and 30% up in time with longer up time at max load periods by increasing the air flow over the electrics and lager heatsinks inside. Why do the manufactures do not this cost. Seeing how IRONWORKER as seen consumer models and industrail (trades) models. He should have noticed the weight differences between the two.
 
#38 ·
Some one mentioned duty cycles. This I under a great deal about. I have seen in this forum every one give what they think is right or wrong. When it says 20% duty cycle that does not mean 1 minute of work time then 20 minutes of cooling off. Actually it's one minute of work and 5 minuted of cool cool down time or multiples there of to about a max of 10 minutes of straight max load. So in the home usage I could not see someone welding for that long at max rating. That is a percent of an hour to be used work time under full load. Even the 220v unit that every one is all over are 30% duty cycles at full load. Which are what most home shops have in them. So with a 30% unit you could weld for 18 minutes out of every hour at max load. Here another little bit of information. Now you could get a 20% and 30% up in time with longer up time at max load periods by increasing the air flow over the electrics and lager heatsinks inside. Why do the manufactures do not this cost. Seeing how IRONWORKER as seen consumer models and industrail (trades) models. He should have noticed the weight differences between the two.
What does the weight of a machine have ANYTHING to do with a 110v vs 220v in comparison to good penetration,,which is what i THOUGHT this thread was all about???:confused:..ummm..was i supposed to give everyone the weight and size of all the different machines here too?..you are REALLY confusing me now...

You are REALLY reaching now.......
 
#40 ·
I normally only run a weld downhill on thin stuff like sheetmetal.. where you don't want a lot of penetration anyway. When MIG welding downhill, I can see the difference in the way the puddle flows. It sort of tries to run over the metal below it (for lack of a better way to describe it).. kind of like a lava flow..

As for a welder's weight used for comparing duty cycle..etc. Keep in mind, there are a lot of inverter based welders that don't weigh very much at all.. but will run full throttle with really good duty cycle..
 
#42 ·
This thread has inspired me. I think I will mosey on over to the aviation forum and argue how to repair AC with some guys that do it for a living, wish me luck!:rolleyes:
 
#45 ·
While your there ask em how does Skydrol feel on tender parts of the body

The bloody axle is held on with the u bolts anyway. It's not like the axle is gonna come flying out from under the jeep, tumbling down the highway, crashing into the innocent family minivan if your welds break?

Put the sucker in there. Tack it all up. Pull it out, wire wheel all the dirt, rust scale and oil off. Next rotate the axle into a position where you can hit the perches with a nice slow hot uphand. Crank the heat and give it your favorite weave style on the way up and call it a day.

Look, i'm just a punk kid with a shiitload of welding expirience (industrial and at home) I would have no doubts that your lincon 140 can burn those perches on solid.
You do have a point on U bolt spring perches.
 
#43 ·
The bloody axle is held on with the u bolts anyway. It's not like the axle is gonna come flying out from under the jeep, tumbling down the highway, crashing into the innocent family minivan if your welds break?

Put the sucker in there. Tack it all up. Pull it out, wire wheel all the dirt, rust scale and oil off. Next rotate the axle into a position where you can hit the perches with a nice slow hot uphand. Crank the heat and give it your favorite weave style on the way up and call it a day.

Look, i'm just a punk kid with a shiitload of welding expirience (industrial and at home) I would have no doubts that your lincon 140 can burn those perches on solid.
 
#47 ·
The bloody axle is held on with the u bolts anyway. It's not like the axle is gonna come flying out from under the jeep, tumbling down the highway, crashing into the innocent family minivan if your welds break?

Put the sucker in there. Tack it all up. Pull it out, wire wheel all the dirt, rust scale and oil off. Next rotate the axle into a position where you can hit the perches with a nice slow hot uphand. Crank the heat and give it your favorite weave style on the way up and call it a day.

Look, i'm just a punk kid with a shiitload of welding expirience (industrial and at home) I would have no doubts that your lincon 140 can burn those perches on solid.
Git'rDun!!:salute:

Try tellin that to any DMV for inspection that you used a 110v machine on any suspension or frame mods and watch them yank that registration out of you're hands..and while you're at it,ask the auto manufacturers why they didn't save a boatload of money on the electricity bill at the plant and just use 110v machines.

Try going to any reputable Welding or Fabrication forum or website and tell them they are ALL WRONG about using more than a 110v machine on suspension of frame mods 1/4" or thicker by CHOICE..come back and let us know how all that went...I'm done with this one,all the facts have been SHOWN and explained over and over....

A "''''''load of expereince at 20 years old?...when did you start welding with the "big dogs"?..at 10 years old??:confused:

I'm not even gonna there about the U-bolts TRYING to hold the whole axle in after a spring perch busted loose and flexing all over the place under load stress..if that's the case>>>I'm wondering why they were even welded it at all?
 
#44 ·
And you argue with certified welders who have done it for a living for years...
If you think Ubolts will hold anything in place under load (braking, swerving etc) you are sadly mistaken.
Do what you feel comfortable doing, just hope you don't kill any one I know.
 
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