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08MK74 08-28-2012 05:49 PM

spark plugs
 
08 jeep pat 2.4l CVT-I with 68,000 miles. i dont recall changing the plugs after 30k... what kind of plugs are yall goin with and how easy is it to change them? i know some 4 cyl can be notoriously tight when it comes to replacing plugs. ill be honest, have not once removed the plastic engine shroud. also, how does the wiring hold up?

NHPATRIOT 08-29-2012 05:10 AM

The cover just pops off. The plugs are easy to do as they are in a straight line across the top of the engine. Easy access right under the coils. Not sure what you mean by wiring holding up? If you mean spark plug wires there aren't any. It is a coil over setup where the coil has the boot on the bottom and sits on top of the plug. So no wires to replace. You pull the coil and then the plugs are there.

The OEM copper core plugs are actually the best option(IMO) in this instance/application. Don't bother with expensive platinums or iridiums. Only benefit to those is a longer service life and with how easy the plug change is on the Patriot it doesn't make sense. 60K+ however is too long for copper cores. You need to change them more 30-40K.

The plug info is in your owner's manual in the rear. Here it is in case you don't have an OM...

Plug = NGK ZFR5F-11
Gap = 0.043

Buy these aftermarket. If you go to the dealer you will get porked and pay like $4-$5 for the same plug you get at AutoZone, PepBoys, Napa, etc... for like $2.00- $2.50 a plug.

Gramps 08-29-2012 06:57 AM

I went with the Autolite APP5224 Double Platinum that I got from NAPA and they have about 50K on them now. Time to take a look at them. It only takes four so cost wasn't a factor. These are the easiest plugs to change outside of lawn equipment.

cuemark8 08-29-2012 09:16 AM

I've changed my sparkplugs twice now! I changed plugs at 30K and about 150K got rid of the copper plugs. I went with Iridium plugs. Without looking them up or pulling a plug wire, I forget what part #. I know they are NGK.
Anyways I would use Platinum or Iridium plugs they last longer. They still don't cost much. 4 Iridium plugs is still going to be cheaper than a Wal-mart oil change! It's not like they are a high priced item. Likely the better plugs with pay dividends with negligable better efficientcy and fuel mileage.

If using platinum or iridium spark plugs that will then be installed in the engine for 100K+ mi. Use a slight bit of copper, or even better, nickle anti sieze compound on the spark plug threads. Otherwise you may never get them back out after 100K miles of service.

Unlike some engines, the spark plugs are very easy to change. A small screw holds the coil pack down. Once that is removed the coil pack wire harness can be unclipped and the coil pack/plug boot should come out as 1 piece. One other note. The screw holding the coil pack on is a specialty bolt. It requires a star-bit screwdriver.

Zappy 08-30-2012 06:18 AM

I've always used the Bosch Platinum Plugs #6707. Change them out as close to every 30K miles as possible and always apply a little anti seize on the threads. As everyone else as said, these are the easiest plugs I've ever replaced. For whatever reason, be sure to disconnect the negative terminal on the battery. ;)

FujativeOCR 08-30-2012 09:02 AM

Why do these plugs need changed so frequently?? My Grand Am recommended every 105,000 miles.

tjkj2002 08-30-2012 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cuemark8 (Post 14090959)
I've changed my sparkplugs twice now! I changed plugs at 30K and about 150K got rid of the copper plugs. I went with Iridium plugs. Without looking them up or pulling a plug wire, I forget what part #. I know they are NGK.
Anyways I would use Platinum or Iridium plugs they last longer. They still don't cost much. 4 Iridium plugs is still going to be cheaper than a Wal-mart oil change! It's not like they are a high priced item. Likely the better plugs with pay dividends with negligable better efficientcy and fuel mileage.

If using platinum or iridium spark plugs that will then be installed in the engine for 100K+ mi. Use a slight bit of copper, or even better, nickle anti sieze compound on the spark plug threads. Otherwise you may never get them back out after 100K miles of service.

Unlike some engines, the spark plugs are very easy to change. A small screw holds the coil pack down. Once that is removed the coil pack wire harness can be unclipped and the coil pack/plug boot should come out as 1 piece. One other note. The screw holding the coil pack on is a specialty bolt. It requires a star-bit screwdriver.

Never use plugs not designed for your engine.If it came from the factory with copper plugs your ignition system is designed to use copper plugs and copper plugs only.Platinum and iridium plugs have different resistance then copper which can lead to problems like misfires and burned out coils.Besides copper core plugs create a hotter spark anyways.To use platinum or iridium plugs you have to gap them to equal the resistance to copper plugs.So if the OE gap for coppers is 0.043" then platinums would need to be gapped around 0.060" and iridiums at about 0.080".Your not seeing the best performance or mpg's using those expensive plugs.I want to say at leat 1/4 of my income is from replacing wrong spark plugs in engines which almost always includes some coils also.Never us anti-sieze either,no need if you change the plugs on time and can make things worse if you wait to long.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zappy (Post 14095691)
I've always used the Bosch Platinum Plugs #6707. Change them out as close to every 30K miles as possible and always apply a little anti seize on the threads. As everyone else as said, these are the easiest plugs I've ever replaced. For whatever reason, be sure to disconnect the negative terminal on the battery. ;)

I wouldn't use a bosch plug in a lawnmower I was trying to blow up,the worst plugs ever made.Almost right there with E3's,pulstar plugs,and splitfires.

tjkj2002 08-30-2012 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FujativeOCR (Post 14096275)
Why do these plugs need changed so frequently?? My Grand Am recommended every 105,000 miles.

Different system and different design.GM was on that kick using iridium plugs but designed the ignition system to properly use those plugs.

Gramps 08-30-2012 10:11 AM

The Autolite Platinum plugs actually have a copper core and that is what is recommended.

tjkj2002 08-30-2012 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gramps (Post 14096573)
The Autolite Platinum plugs actually have a copper core and that is what is recommended.

But not copper tips which means less resistance still.

With how much voltage these coils put out less resistance will mean a adnormal spark and easier to short/overheat the coil windings and wears that fancy coating off faster.


Take GM's iridium/platinum plugs use,there OE plug gap start at 0.065" to increase resistance to get the spark of a copper plug that will not damage the plug or coil(s) and last longer.

jasonwe 08-30-2012 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjkj2002 (Post 14096277)
Never use plugs not designed for your engine.If it came from the factory with copper plugs your ignition system is designed to use copper plugs and copper plugs only.Platinum and iridium plugs have different resistance then copper which can lead to problems like misfires and burned out coils.Besides copper core plugs create a hotter spark anyways.To use platinum or iridium plugs you have to gap them to equal the resistance to copper plugs.So if the OE gap for coppers is 0.043" then platinums would need to be gapped around 0.060" and iridiums at about 0.080".Your not seeing the best performance or mpg's using those expensive plugs.I want to say at leat 1/4 of my income is from replacing wrong spark plugs in engines which almost always includes some coils also.Never us anti-sieze either,no need if you change the plugs on time and can make things worse if you wait to long.

I wouldn't use a bosch plug in a lawnmower I was trying to blow up,the worst plugs ever made.Almost right there with E3's,pulstar plugs,and splitfires.

I will agree with you on the Bosch plugs and platinum. Unless your engine is designed for platinum plugs, like the lower set on my 2010 Dakota's dual plug per cylinder 4.7L V8, you shouldn't use them. The Bosch's are definitely not anywhere near as great as they are advertised.

However, you are incorrect about 100% true iridium or iridium/copper plugs. It is a much better conductor than platinum, albeit still not as good as copper. If you are stating that you must make a larger gap to compensate for the increased electrical resistance, iridium should be gapped less than platinum (the iridium of course doesn't matter if you are using an iridium/platinum combination plug).

Electrical Resistance in ohm-meters (lower is better for conducting):
Silver: 15.87
Copper: 16.78
Gold: 22.14
Aluminum: 28.2
Iridium: 47.1
Nickel: 69.3
Platinum: 105

I threw a few other common metals in there just for show, I've never seen a silver or gold spark plug. However, you did make me think a bit after I saw the still relatively large distance between Copper and Iridium, I thought they were closer than that until I looked it up just now.

I am planning on using coppers for the upper set on my Dakota, and the wife's Compass.

cuemark8 08-31-2012 06:43 AM

Resistance of a spark plug doesn't really make any difference with the spark. I'm an electrician. The high voltage spark will jump the plug gap. It's a 20k to 60k voltage depending on the system. It's has know problem arcing across the gap regardless of material or metal it is made of. Spark plug wires and boots and even the spark have a resistor that doesn't allow a weak voltage to flow a high voltage is needed to overcome that ensuring a hot spark. If you take an ordinary spark plug wire and cut in in half you will find it doesn't even have metal wire in it. It usually a strand of carbon filaments much like carbon fiber. Most manufactures are using platinum or iridium plugs because of the longevity of the metal. Platimun and Iridium are the two most precious metals. In the grouping of chemical elements the chemical properties of platiunum and iridium make them inpervious to virtually all corrosion of any kind. Including most acids.

I my opinion when Toyota and Honda and the premium brands well selling and advertising 100k+ tune-ups on vehicles the big 3 were in financial troubles and cutting cost where evr they could. It comes down to cost. $2 copper spark plug or $8 platinum plug or $10 iridium plug. Lets do math.
4- $2 spark plugs per engine = $8
5,000,000 4cyl engines sold per year= $40,000,000 in spark plugs

4- $8 spark plugs per engine = $32
5,000,000 4cyl engines sold per year = $160,000,000 in spark plugs

tjkj2002 08-31-2012 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cuemark8 (Post 14100936)
Resistance of a spark plug doesn't really make any difference with the spark. I'm an electrician. The high voltage spark will jump the plug gap. It's a 20k to 60k voltage depending on the system. It's has know problem arcing across the gap regardless of material or metal it is made of. Spark plug wires and boots and even the spark have a resistor that doesn't allow a weak voltage to flow a high voltage is needed to overcome that ensuring a hot spark. If you take an ordinary spark plug wire and cut in in half you will find it doesn't even have metal wire in it. It usually a strand of carbon filaments much like carbon fiber. Most manufactures are using platinum or iridium plugs because of the longevity of the metal. Platimun and Iridium are the two most precious metals. In the grouping of chemical elements the chemical properties of platiunum and iridium make them inpervious to virtually all corrosion of any kind. Including most acids.

I my opinion when Toyota and Honda and the premium brands well selling and advertising 100k+ tune-ups on vehicles the big 3 were in financial troubles and cutting cost where evr they could. It comes down to cost. $2 copper spark plug or $8 platinum plug or $10 iridium plug. Lets do math.
4- $2 spark plugs per engine = $8
5,000,000 4cyl engines sold per year= $40,000,000 in spark plugs

4- $8 spark plugs per engine = $32
5,000,000 4cyl engines sold per year = $160,000,000 in spark plugs

Working in the automotive field you will see what happens when the wrong plugs are used.There is a difference any any plug just does not work.

The design of the engine influences what plugs they use for the most part.Take most FWD cars with a V6,most you have to remove the upper plenum to change the 3 back plugs making it a $250-$450 labor charge to change the plugs so they design the ignition system to use those other plugs for longer intervals.Or take a F body camaro with the 5.7,it's over 5 hours of labor to chnage the spark plugs in that car.Think the owner is going to spend that much $$$ every 30k? Now in your case it takes less then 10mins to chnage your plugs so they use the better plugs(coppers) but yes they just don't last very long.

FujativeOCR 08-31-2012 10:28 AM

This is a very educational thread. Carry on.

jasonwe 08-31-2012 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cuemark8 (Post 14100936)
Resistance of a spark plug doesn't really make any difference with the spark. I'm an electrician. The high voltage spark will jump the plug gap. It's a 20k to 60k voltage depending on the system. It's has know problem arcing across the gap regardless of material or metal it is made of. Spark plug wires and boots and even the spark have a resistor that doesn't allow a weak voltage to flow a high voltage is needed to overcome that ensuring a hot spark. If you take an ordinary spark plug wire and cut in in half you will find it doesn't even have metal wire in it. It usually a strand of carbon filaments much like carbon fiber. Most manufactures are using platinum or iridium plugs because of the longevity of the metal. Platimun and Iridium are the two most precious metals. In the grouping of chemical elements the chemical properties of platiunum and iridium make them inpervious to virtually all corrosion of any kind. Including most acids.

I my opinion when Toyota and Honda and the premium brands well selling and advertising 100k+ tune-ups on vehicles the big 3 were in financial troubles and cutting cost where evr they could. It comes down to cost. $2 copper spark plug or $8 platinum plug or $10 iridium plug. Lets do math.
4- $2 spark plugs per engine = $8
5,000,000 4cyl engines sold per year= $40,000,000 in spark plugs

4- $8 spark plugs per engine = $32
5,000,000 4cyl engines sold per year = $160,000,000 in spark plugs

There is a difference. Many engines run very poorly with platinum plugs. Look at my old friends who I used to hang out with back when I owned a 2001 Dodge Ram 1500. It had the huge gas guzzling 5.9L V8, and both it and its smaller cousin, the 5.2L V8, usually hate platinum plugs. Misfiring, poor gas mileage, or other problems. Changing the plugs back to copper units solve the issue.

However, you are correct in that some manufacturers design their systems to use the poorer conducting spark plugs for longer changes. The lower set of plugs on my Dakota are harder to get too, and they are just the "waste plugs" (not the primaries), so Chrysler used platinums. The uppers are very easy to get to, so they are coppers.


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