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Unread 03-29-2007, 07:58 PM   #1
Gramps
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Ratios: CVT2 vs 5 Speed

For those still trying to decide on which transmission that they should go with maybe this information will help.

The Gear Ratios in the 5 Speed are:
1st - 3.77
2nd - 2.16
3rd - 1.41
4th - 1.026
5th - 0.81
Transaxle Ratio - 4.12 ('07); 3.91 ('08)

This calculates out to 15.53:1 in low and 3.33 in high for '07; 14.74 in low and 3.16 in high for '08.

From the Engineering session 7/29/08.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepEngineers View Post
1st 3.77, 2nd 2.160, 3rd 1.414, 4th 1.026, 5th 0.810, r 3.42, Final Drive 4.12 , Remember the Patriot is naturally aspirated. The Patriot does meet all on road demands at +10,000 feet. 215/65R17 is the largest tire. This is a 28" dia tire.


The Gear Ratios for the CVT2 FD I are:

anywhere between 2.349 - 0.394 depending on the Variator position.
Transaxle Ratio - 6.12

This calculates out to 14.37 in low and 2.41 in high.

I have not found out what the electronic settings are for the other four positions of the variator.

Update:The CVT2L also has 2.349 - 0.394 range and a Transaxel ratio of 8.15; low is 19.14 and high is 3.21

As far as hill ascension/descension are concerned, the CVT2 does a great job simply because it has more ratios to choose from. Also if you do a lot of highway driving the final gear ratio really helps the mpg.

If you want more off the line performance because you do mostly in town driving and just want the extra jump off the line at traffic lights and from stop signs then the 5 Speed has a slight edge.

I think that this substantiates that the 5 Speed is quicker up to maybe 20 mph, after that the CVT2 will take it on the top end.



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Unread 03-29-2007, 08:14 PM   #2
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Thanks, I was just thinking about that. The only downside to the CVT2 is that it can't handle much more power than is already there.
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Unread 03-29-2007, 08:23 PM   #3
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Some where rattling around in the back of my head I remember something along the line of 250hp max. Still trying to find that out for sure too. I still think a 50hp shot of N2O would be nice one in a while.

Question for the 5 Speed owners: can you at least chirp your tires, with or without ESP on?

I think that the non-answer that I got from the SRT guys on the Caliber forum was basically a DC brush-off pat answer because the SRT4 guy wasn't there and they didn't have a clue as to what the max hp was that the CVT2 could handle.

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Unread 03-29-2007, 09:12 PM   #4
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I have the 5spd. and it chirps. Surprised me a couple times, mostly because I was just trying to get out of my own way.
I'm sure if I was still young and silly and not so anal about beating on my vehicle it could do a lot more.

I followed my husband to the dealership to drop his baby off for an oil change, etc. tonight and of course he's got to mess with me because he knows if he can lose me I'll probably get lost, lol. He opened it up (it being a Dodge Hemi 5.7L) at the light on an open road. Of course I could not keep up with him, but I chirped off the line, let that drop so I could get going. I caught up quick enough, and when I did it was mine because I could keep some speed on the corners, whereas the king cab 1500 was whining for the straight away again It was the first time I really opened it up, and she liked it.

I haven't messed around with the ESP.
I need to educate myself more on the ESP. Should I leave it on?
I bought my Compass in December and haven't thought much about it, I just left it on because of the winter weather.
I guess I could dig out my owners manual and read up on it.
But do I need it in my every day driving on dry roads?
Think it makes a difference in gas mileage or wear and tear?
To me logically if it chips with the ESP on, it most certainly will with it off.

My last car was a stick too. I didn't care for the CVT, but that was my own preference. I enjoy the control of a stick. I wouldn't have bought the automatic even if it was a traditional automatic, just because whatever I buy I'm going to get a stick.
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Unread 03-29-2007, 09:23 PM   #5
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my dealer said the esp should pretty much be on always
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Unread 03-30-2007, 05:19 AM   #6
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For all normal driving the ESP should be left on especially on curvy roads or at highway speeds. It should have no affect on gas mileage, etc. Turning it to "Partial Off" or "Off" will affect your Anti Roll Mitigation" (ARM) and compromise the over steer/under steer correction features built in to it. Only under special conditions should you consider turning it off. Off-roading, racing, sand and deep snow (starting out) are some of those special conditions.

Sometimes I'm just trying to find out where that line is that I shouldn't cross is. I like to know the limitations. Since the engineers gave us a way to turn it off AND I've never had it on anything else that I've ever driven I'm just playing with it. There's still a little boy left it me somewhere. I guess that there is a little girl left in some too, like those that go street racing with their hubby. What are the kids to think .

Corners are FUN!
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Unread 03-30-2007, 05:36 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gramps
Some where rattling around in the back of my head I remember something along the line of 250hp max.
I have a similar rattle regarding Jatco CVTs but my rattle is that Nissan uses a beefier CVT for something like 250 ponies.


From the JATCO site:

JF011E - Applicable up to 2.5-liter class

JF010E - Applicable up to 3.5L class vehicles.

http://www.jatco.co.jp/ENGLISH/PRODUCTS/cvt.html#ff
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Unread 03-30-2007, 05:53 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by decimon
I have a similar rattle regarding Jatco CVTs but my rattle is that Nissan uses a beefier CVT for something like 250 ponies.


From the JATCO site:

JF011E - Applicable up to 2.5-liter class

JF010E - Applicable up to 3.5L class vehicles.

http://www.jatco.co.jp/ENGLISH/PRODUCTS/cvt.html#ff
Thanks for that! That 250hp max that I'm thinking of probably came from some research over a year ago while the Caliber was still just in the planning stages.

When/if I blow up the JF011E maybe someone will come up with a way to adapt the JF010E. We'll just have to wait and see. I've got a couple years left on the warranty, not doing anything until that runs out.

Here's some more info on the CVT2 for those who want to know more (Adobe Reader required).:

http://www.gearsmagazine.com/images/issues/3_2007/2007_03_38.pdf (Dead link - removed by magazine)
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Unread 03-30-2007, 06:20 AM   #9
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Gramps,

The CVT2 remains a question mark, or does to me. I hope it lasts forever but if not then I'm still not clear on whether it is repairable. If not repairable then I'm not clear on what would be the replacement cost, including labor.

It would be great to see some feedback on high-mileage Calibers. Even rental Calibers.
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Unread 03-30-2007, 06:40 AM   #10
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decimon,

In another post I related my inquiries to the Service Techs when I was investigating the Caliber. The answers were about 150K longevity, and a new unit cost of about $1500 (labor extra) and not rebuildable. The article in my previous thread is from a Transmission Re-builders magazine, so they're looking at it.

The Caliber has only been out for a little over a year now so I don't expect to find any 80 - 90K units of those out there yet. It may be beneficial to research the other Jatco CVT's to see how they have done. Sounds like a weekend project if I can find the time. 13.5K on mine and no hint of a problem.
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Unread 03-30-2007, 05:02 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gramps
decimon,

The answers were about 150K longevity, and a new unit cost of about $1500 (labor extra) and not rebuildable.
150K sounds good. The replacement cost seems about the same as what I've been told for my Intrepid.

Quote:
The Caliber has only been out for a little over a year now so I don't expect to find any 80 - 90K units of those out there yet. It may be beneficial to research the other Jatco CVT's to see how they have done. Sounds like a weekend project if I can find the time. 13.5K on mine and no hint of a problem.
What little I've seen on the net, of older CVTs, is downright demoralizin'. Replacement costs of more than an older car is worth.

The local Jeep dealer seems OK so maybe I should stop in to bust their...I mean, to inquire of certain particulars.

They have a 2006 Liberty Sport with 11,000 miles for $17,888. Certified with the 8 year/80,000 mile drivetrain warranty. Bumper-to-bumper (so they say) for another $900. Tempting.
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Unread 03-30-2007, 09:29 PM   #12
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I had a '92 NY Fifth Avenue - $2300 for a tranny job. '98 Dakota - $1500. Both rebuilds not new.

As far as the Libby is concerned is sounds like a good deal. You won't get the gas mileage but you will have a conventional trans and more towing capacity. Oldest daughter has about the same kind of drive that I do every day and she gets about 18mpg in her Libby compared to my 25mpg. Guess it depends on what you're going to do with it.

It is called a 2nd generation CVT. I'm hoping that DC did enough testing of their own to not put something in that's not going to last. Just thinking that if Dodge and Jeep are both using it that they have to have quite a bit of research and development time into them.
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Unread 03-31-2007, 08:08 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gramps
As far as the Libby is concerned is sounds like a good deal. You won't get the gas mileage but you will have a conventional trans and more towing capacity. Oldest daughter has about the same kind of drive that I do every day and she gets about 18mpg in her Libby compared to my 25mpg. Guess it depends on what you're going to do with it.
My '01 Intrepid R/T has only 65K on it but it is now about 7 years old and time takes a toll. Especially when you live in the sometimes salt mine of snow country.

My plans always prove worthless but the plan is to have a second vehicle as backup and as a go-in-the-snow vehicle. The Libby should fill the bill but I'm not in a rush as there should be more of the same at good prices should this one slip away.

That's the plan so I'll probably end up with an entirely different vehicle.
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Unread 03-31-2007, 09:14 AM   #14
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"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans" - John Lennon and "the sometimes salt mines of snow country" I can easily relate to!

Since mine is a DD, mpg was a big factor in me getting a Compass and after driving a winter with AWD, I can't imagine that I would ever have anything else again, it's a DREAM come true, the "shift on the go" 4WD lock is just icing on the cake. Much nicer that the wife's GC of putting it into 4WD Hi, backing up and engaging it and then remembering to put it back into 2WD and hoping that there are no icy patches that you didn't count on. Really, with the 4WD system in the Compass, you just get in and go, anytime, any condition, any place (except Rubicon, of course) . For me, the AWD beats the 4WD "plan ahead" system for varying road condition any day. It could even come to pass that the Patriot owners with FD I help to improve the sales of the Compass with FD I once they start to add their input to how super it is.

Maybe you'll get lucky and find a good lease return or something.
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Last edited by Gramps; 03-31-2007 at 09:24 AM..
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Unread 04-09-2007, 08:10 AM   #15
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I sent an email to Jatco for some information.

Subject: JF011E
Hello,
What is the maximum Horsepower and Torque that the JF011E can handle safely? I am modifying a Jeep Compass and the warranty is not a major concern but durability is.

Thanks,
Bob

Dear Bob,
We are awfully sorry but we cannot mention the maintenance of vehicles (and also your request) , because carmakers, not we, are responsible for providing technical support to the customers.

Best regards

JATCO Ltd

Oh, well.

Sorry. These next to links have been removed by the magazine.)

Here's a re-posting of the first article from GEARS MAGAZINE on the CVT mechanics so that you don't have to look for it:

http://www.gearsmagazine.com/images/issues/3_2007/2007_03_38.pdf

AND

The Next Article from GEARS MAGAZINE: covering the electronics.

http://www.gearsmagazine.com/images/issues/4_2007/2007_04_04.pdf
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Last edited by Gramps; 04-09-2007 at 08:34 AM..
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