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Unread 06-07-2007, 01:53 PM   #1
zxjockey
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Noobish question about Patriot 4WD system/ESP System

Hi all;
My apologies if this was previously addressed, but I couldn't find it in a search, so here goes:

When I was in the process of buying my Patriot, I asked questions all over the place about the way the 4WD system operates. The compiled answers, coupled with the Owner's Manual, lead me to two contrary conclusions, as follows.

1. The Patriot system is Full-Time On-Demand, and whenever the computer detects a wheel slip, it automatically transfers power back through the coupler to the rear, in a 60-40 rough split. The "4WD Lock" lever causes the coupler to lock up and hold the power balance at 50/50 for when you are really in the thick of it and don't want the computer making power decisions.

2. The Owner's Manual states that "When one or more wheels have wheel spin or if additional traction is needed in sand, deep snow, or loose traction surfaces, activate the 4WD Lock switch by pulling up once and releasing. This locks the center coupling allowing more torque to be sent to the rear wheels." While this does acknowledge the "Lock" feature, it sort of insinuates that I won't be getting 4WD activity unless I pull the lever. And it also doesn't specifically discuss the 60/40 or 50/50 split I've heard about. It says "More" torque to the rear wheels, but never mentions any torque sent to them at any other time.

So with apologies for the noobish question, can anyone explain to me EXACTLY how this system works, and whether I am actually gtting the Full-Time On-Demand 4WD that the dealership told me I would be getting plus an added "Lock" feature, or whether I'm only getting any 4WD when I have the lever pulled and the system "Locked?"

Thanks


Last edited by zxjockey; 06-07-2007 at 02:37 PM.. Reason: Edited to fix spelling
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Unread 06-07-2007, 02:29 PM   #2
Gramps
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Yup we've been threw that before but I've forgotten which thread it's in.

Try this at the Jeep.com site:

http://www.jeep.com/4x4/index.html?dvar=5

Click on "Get Ready" and then "See how Jeep 4WD systems work", then on Freedom Drive I or II.

Briefly: The MK's 4WD systems are an On Demand AWD, primarily using FWD until sensors tell the system to use a 60/40 split and computer controlled Limited Slip. Buy pulling up the Lock Lever the torque is split 50/50.

Sorry this is so short. I'll try and find the link to a better explanation later tonight.
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Unread 06-07-2007, 03:51 PM   #3
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Post #7 over here:

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f98/compass-owner-review-301347/

Written 10 months ago, boy, time flies!!

I also have this in my notes. It's a condensed version of what's in the owners manual.

Traction Control System (TCS)
The TCS monitors the amount of wheel spin on each of the driven wheels. Brake pressure is applied to the spinning wheels(s) (similar to a limited slip) and engine power is reduced for enhanced acceleration and stability with more engine torque applied to the wheel that is not spinning. This feature remains active even if TCS and ESP are in either “Partial Off” or “ESP Off” modes. Refer to the Electronic Stability Program (ESP) in this section of this manual.

Electronic Stability Program (ESP)
ESP enhances directional control and stability under various driving conditions. ESP corrects for over/under steering by applying the brake of the appropriate wheel to counter-act the over/under steer condition. Engine power may also be reduced to help maintain the desired path. ESP uses sensors to determine the path intended by the driver and compares it to the actual path of the vehicle. When the actual path does not match the intended path, ESP applies the brake on the appropriate wheel to counteract the oversteer or understeer condition.

- Oversteer - when the vehicle is turning more than appropriate for the steering wheel position.
- Understeer - when the vehicle is turning less than appropriate for the steering wheel position.

ESP/TCS Indicator Light
The “ESP/TCS Indicator Light” located in the instrument cluster, starts to flash as soon as the tires lose traction and the ESP system becomes active. The “ESP/TCS Indicator Light” also flashes when TCS is active. If the “ESP/TCS Indicator Light” begins to flash during acceleration, ease up on the accelerator and apply as little throttle as possible. Be sure to adapt your speed and driving to the prevailing road conditions.

ESP2WD Operating modes
All 2WD vehicles can choose the following ESP operating modes:

ESP ON
This is the normal operating mode for ESP. Whenever the vehicle is started the ESP system will be in this mode. This mode should be used for almost all driving situations. ESP should be turned to “Partial Off” or “ESP Off” for the specific reasons as noted below.

Partial ESP
This mode is entered by momentarily depressing the “ESP Control Switch”. When in “Partial Off” mode, the TCS and ESP function normally, with the exception of engine power reduction. The “ESP/TCS Indicator Light” will be illuminated. This mode is intended to be used if the vehicle is in deep snow, sand or gravel conditions and more wheel spin than ESP would allow is required to gain traction.

To turn ESP on again, momentarily depress the “ESP Control Switch”. This will restore the “ESP ON’ mode of operation.

WARNING!
In the partial ESP mode, the engine torque reduction and stability features are desensitized. Therefore, the enhanced vehicle stability offered by ESP is unavailable.

NOTE: To improve the vehicle’s traction when driving with snow chains, or starting off in deep snow, sand or gravel, it may be desirable to switch to “Partial Off” mode by pressing the ESP switch. Once the situation requiring ESP to be switched to the “Partial Off” mode is overcome, turn ESP back on by momentarily depressing the “ESP Control Switch”. This may be done while the vehicle is in motion.

ESP 4WD Operating Modes
In addition to ESP ON and Partial ESP, all 4WD equipped vehicles can also choose the following ESP operating mode:

ESP OFF

This mode is intended for off-highway or off-road use when ESP stability features could inhibit vehicle maneuverability due to trail conditions. This mode is entered by depressing and holding the “ESP Control Switch” for 5 seconds when the vehicle is stopped and the engine is running. After 5 seconds, the ESP/TCS Indicator Light will illuminate and the “ESP OFF” message will appear in the odometer. Press and release the trip odometer button located in the instrument cluster to clear the message.

In this mode, ESP and TCS, except for the “limited slip” feature described in the TCS section, are turned off until the vehicle reaches a speed of 35 mph (56km/h). At 35 mph the normal ESP stability function returns with the exception of engine power reduction. TCS remains off. When the vehicle speed drops below 30 mph (48 km/h) the ESP system shuts off. ESP is off at low vehicle speeds so that it will not interfere with off-road driving but ESP function returns to provide the stability feature at speeds above 35 mph. The “ESP/TCS Indicator Light” will always be illuminated when ESP is off.

To turn ESP on again, momentarily depress the “ESP Control Switch”. This will restore the normal “ESP ON” mode of operation.

WARNING!
With ESP switched off, the enhanced vehicle stability offered by ESP is unavailable. In an emergency evasive maneuver, the ESP system will not engage to assist in maintaining stability. “ESP OFF” mode is intended for off-highway or off-road use only.

NOTE:
The ESP Control System will make a buzzing or clicking sound when it is active. This is normal; the sounds will stop when ESP becomes inactive following the maneuver that caused ESP to activate.
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Unread 06-07-2007, 04:31 PM   #4
mdls4
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I've also been trying to find more specific information on the (MK) 4WD system, in particular the speed range the 4wd lock is limited to? It can get confusing, because I've read online reviews/test drives where they mention the 4wd lock is limited to 45km/hr (25mph). Then when I bought my compass, the salesperson tells me it's 50/50 lock up to 80km/hr (50mph).

For my own use, I guess I wouldn't be driving off road (sand, mud, etc) at anywhere near that speed.....but I can't find any official Jeep specification (online or in the owners manual), of what the speed limitation is for the 4WD lock.

If anyone can help, that would be great!
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Unread 06-07-2007, 05:05 PM   #5
zxjockey
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That web link was an interesting read, Gramps. For the FDI, which I have, it shows a shifter that I don't have (I assume it's the Compass?). It does mention, however, that to "Activate the Off-Road" mode, lift up on the handle. What's interesting is that my Patriot has the "L" setting on the shifter as shown for the FDII, and if I look closely at the Info Center under the Tach, it has an "Off-Road" indicator (Which I've tried entering Lock Mode in L to light, to no avail.).
I'll have to research further to see whether the "Off-Road" indicator is disabled in mine, or whether I have to do something else to light it.

In any case, thanks for the info.
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Unread 06-07-2007, 05:26 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdls4
I've also been trying to find more specific information on the (MK) 4WD system, in particular the speed range the 4wd lock is limited to? It can get confusing, because I've read online reviews/test drives where they mention the 4wd lock is limited to 45km/hr (25mph). Then when I bought my compass, the salesperson tells me it's 50/50 lock up to 80km/hr (50mph).

For my own use, I guess I wouldn't be driving off road (sand, mud, etc) at anywhere near that speed.....but I can't find any official Jeep specification (online or in the owners manual), of what the speed limitation is for the 4WD lock.

If anyone can help, that would be great!
In the Compass Owners Manual (sorry, I haven't picked up a Patriot Maual yet) starting on pg 243,

Starting and Operating, Four Wheel Drive System, if equiped: ...activate the 4WD Lock switch by pulling up once and releasing. This activates the center coupling allowing more torque to the rear wheels...This can be done on the fly, at any speed. Refer to ESP for additional information.

By default, if you can engage it at any speed, you can run it at any speed. We MK owners are not meshing gears or using chains on the four Wheel Drive System, we are coupled electronically by discs, etc.

ESP. pg144, see previous post under ESP OFF. This is the only referance to MPH & km/h and it's automatic in both directions above and below 35 mph & /56km/h.

Hope this helps.
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Unread 06-07-2007, 06:06 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zxjockey
For the FDI, which I have, it shows a shifter that I don't have (I assume it's the Compass?). It does mention, however, that to "Activate the Off-Road" mode, lift up on the handle. What's interesting is that my Patriot has the "L" setting on the shifter as shown for the FDII, and if I look closely at the Info Center under the Tach, it has an "Off-Road" indicator (Which I've tried entering Lock Mode in L to light, to no avail.).
I'll have to research further to see whether the "Off-Road" indicator is disabled in mine, or whether I have to do something else to light it.

In any case, thanks for the info.
The "Off-Road" indicator is on all MK dashes. I do believe that it only lights up on the FD II. Pic 1. I am curious if anybody has put their FD I in "L", turned ESP off by holding in the button to full off condition and see if it lights up. Since I do not an "L" I can't try that. Neither have I tried to put it in 1st and turn off ESP. I'll give that a try myself.

The shifter on the Jeep site is just a drawing but does resemble the Compass AutoStick option (pic 2). All other MK without AutoStik or 5 speed use this other shifter with a "L" gate (pic 3) that lets you drop down into Low range (1st "gear"). Shown here on the FD II with the OFF-ROAD stenciling.
enew-005.jpg   eshifter-005.jpg   epost-10-.jpg  
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Unread 02-18-2008, 12:25 PM   #8
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I have a question regarding the Traction Control System. as I understand the Compass manual and this thread the TCS should act as a limited slip differential (this is a FDI vehicle with 4x4 and the non off-road L selection on my CVT2), i.e. both wheels on the same axle should turn regardless if one wheel is in the air and the other wheel has traction.

I got stuck in snow yesterday with both right wheels sunk into the snow and my vehicle slanted with more of the vehicle's weight on the right hand side than the left. This logically meant the left hand side wheels would start spinning first as there would be less friction and thus less traction available as more torque was applied as I tried to drive the vehicle out of the snow.

I had the vehicle in 4x4 lock mode with the ESP in "Off" and L selected on the CVT. But as I tried driving out of the snow the 4x4 "system did not react as I would have expected. As soon as any reasonable amount of torque was applied via the accelerator pedal both left wheels would start spinning. This means that the 4x4 lock was performing as expected as both front and rear wheel started spinning at more or less the same time showing the 50/50 split of torque between front and rear. What I did not expect was the left side wheel so start spinning so easily allowing almost no torque to be split between the left and right wheels on the same axle.

This makes me question the effectiveness of the TCS "limited slip differential" action as mentioned.

In the situation I was in it would have been easier for a non 4x4 vehicle with a lockable rear differential to extract the vehicle than my Compass with 4x4 as one of the left hand side wheels would at least have been turning with traction.

If my reasoning around this problem is flawed could someone please point me in the right way of thinking.

Thanks
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Unread 02-18-2008, 01:12 PM   #9
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brake assist differential action is not like a locker as both tires on a given axle can turn at different speeds, it just allows more power to go to the tire with more traction as the tire with none will have the brakes applied to keep it from spinning wildly, but it will still spin a bit.

youre saying that you got stuck? or did it "unstuck" itself? if you did get out (even with the left tires spinning a bit) it did do its job by allowing the tires with grip to get you out. you had esp off so you had no throttle reduction so that may be why you could spin the left tires.. you you could give it enough power to overcome the left side brakes even though they were on to assist in transferring power to the right wheels.. Im just guessing on this though.

when I took my patriot into the back yard in 10-14" of soft snow I left esp on and went through a (again soft) snowbank at the end of my driveway left by the plow by just flooring it in 4x4 lock. throttle reduction came on and I slowly (and I mean SLOWLY) went through the snowbank. I could hear all 4 tires starting and stopping. so it worked in that situation but all tires were had the same traction (or lack of it) so it just kept shifting power between them. at no time did any tire spin much because of the throttle reduction.
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Last edited by CharBroiled; 02-18-2008 at 01:26 PM..
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Unread 02-18-2008, 01:12 PM   #10
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Just a quick question and I'll respond later tonight. Were you HIGH CENTERED?
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Unread 02-18-2008, 01:40 PM   #11
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Charbroiled,

All I can say was that I was spinning, the more throttle I gave the faster the spin. I had to walk and ask for help, I had to be towed out of the snow in the end. When I started the extraction process the vehicle almost got out with me pushing in the front and the wife giving throttle. Unfortunately a wall of snow formed behind the right rear wheel in reverse. I can understand the vehicle not moving then cause it was pushing against a wall of snow. Herein my problem, how can I push the vehicle but the "advanced" traction system cannot transmit enough power to the wheels to move the car before starting to spin????

After your exercise in the snow are you suggesting I should have enabled ESP to stop the wheels from spinning and transfer power to the wheels with more traction? That would make more sense but that is contradictory to what the TCS and 4x4 lock is supposed to do?

Gramps, no I was not high centered, if I had been all of this would make much more sense.
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Unread 02-18-2008, 01:51 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gerty920 View Post
Charbroiled,
After your exercise in the snow are you suggesting I should have enabled ESP to stop the wheels from spinning and transfer power to the wheels with more traction? That would make more sense but that is contradictory to what the TCS and 4x4 lock is supposed to do?
That's what I was going to suggest. The 4WD Lock was doing as it should but with ESP OFF you were applying torque to all the wheels and you didn't need it. With ESP on it would have applied MORE torque to the right side if that's where the traction was. I would have also tried feathering the throttle in an attempt to rock it to get maybe a little bit of momentum to carry me out.
Quote:
Gramps, no I was not high centered, if I had been all of this would make much more sense.
That would have made for an easy explanation.
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Unread 02-18-2008, 01:53 PM   #13
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Im not sure. I just left esp on because that was what my wife would do also I was in "D" not "L"

but once a tire spins it does lose all traction whereas if its not it can still get a small amount of grip. whether its enough to get you out is another story. not that I ever want you in that position again but if it does get stuck try esp on, partial off then full off (in that order) and see if it makes a difference.

it does seem very odd that you got stuck with 2 wheels on a decent surface. looking forward to what Gramps posts, hes Da Man when it comes to the MK.
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Unread 02-18-2008, 02:08 PM   #14
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Gramps,

if I understand you correctly the "limited slip differential" action is enabled with ESP on and not ESP off? The ESP would then apply brakes to the spinning wheel to transfer more power to the "stuck" wheel? From the manual I understoof the opposite.

Maybe I should read the manual again.
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Unread 02-18-2008, 02:12 PM   #15
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The manual is very hard to read and understand in this section, at least it is for me (too wordy). I'll take a look in the Service Manual to see if I can find more info. Even with ESP OFF you should still have the Limited Slip working in your favor, so yes, I agree that something doesn't sound right but it may be my interpretation.
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