How does the Patriot's off-road CVT w/crawl ratio compare to regular CVT II? - JeepForum.com
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Unread 05-04-2007, 06:32 AM   #1
eighteenwheeler
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How does the Patriot's off-road CVT w/crawl ratio compare to regular CVT II?

We are going to buy either a compass or patriot, dependent on this question.

My wife likes the Compass, but we'll probably get the patriot because it is trail rated with the offroad options. (Yes I understand that it will never be a great offroader, but what do you expect for $20k).

The issue however is that the trail rated version has the "CVT w/crawl ratio" which is a different transmission than the standard CVT that comes on the patriot and compass. I've looked everywhere, asked my dealer, and posted up on all my current forums, but noone has any idea how this transmission compares to the standard CVT for non-offroading and gas mileage.

Clearly in buying a patriot we are not planning on doing a lot of offroading, and maybe never will even get around to it, but I like the idea of letting the wife try to join the rest of us occaisonally. I don't want to get the trail rated version if it's going to get 4 miles less per gallon or perform any worse than the standard engine/CVT combo already does.

Does anyone have any information on this? (Yes I tried to search already, so please point me in the right direction if this has been posted before)

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Unread 05-04-2007, 06:57 AM   #2
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I've tried to do a fair test drive here:

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f98/patriot-limited-fd-ii-test-drive-402333/

I don't know of anybody on board who has logged in yet so we have no other comparisons that I an aware of.

The advantages of the FD II off-road package over the FD I (AWD w/4WD lock) are an extra 1/2" of GC and the 19:1 low range for better rock climbing vs the 14:1 (actually 14.37) on the standard CVT2.

The disadvantages are also the 19:1 crawl ratio that likes to drink more gas (21/23mpg vs 23/26). The typical complaint about the FD I is that there is no low range, my complaint about the FD II is that it has no high range. If your using it mostly as a DD I prefer the FD I and intend to modify mine with more GC, tires, Skid plates and oil cooler. It should handle anything that I feel like doing locally.

The CVT2 and CVT2L are the same mechanically with just different programming that also includes more articulation and control for hill decent. The 4 wheel disc brakes do a nice job all by them self so is that necessary?

I am not knocking the FD II, it really depends on what your priorities are on usage.

If you do decide to go with the FD I package the only difference between the Compass and the Patriot is the sheet metal.

Hope this helps.
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Unread 05-04-2007, 08:25 AM   #3
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Gramps summed it up quite nicely and accurately.
You need to assess just how often you'd take advantage of the Trail-Rated FDII as well as how much highway driving you will do. The gearing programming between the FDI and FDII is pretty significant when it comes to overall mpg and engine rpms at highway speeds.

My FDI Patriot revs at 2000-2200rpms @ 70 mph. Those with the FDII have reported 2800rpms @ 65mph and 3200rpms @ 70. Something to definitely consider.
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Unread 05-04-2007, 12:05 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gramps Ratios: CVT2 vs 5 Speed
The Gear Ratios for the CVT2 are:

anywhere between 2.349 - 0.394 depending on the Variator position.
Transaxle Ratio - 6.12

This calculates out to 14.37 in low and 2.41 in high.

I have not found out what the electronic settings are for the other four positions of the variator. Neither have I been able to find out how the 19:1 crawl ratio is achieved with the CVT2L. I'm still researching that.
You can read more about it here:

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f98/ratios-cvt2-vs-5-speed-395153/

With that being said I’m going to speculate on how the 19:1 crawl ratio is achieved. Don't shoot me if I'm wrong!

SPECULATION:

The Primary Variator is what selects the ratio needed, it actually "variates" . The Secondary Variator is stationary. If the Secondary variator is repositioned, then you could get a lower gear ratio on both bottom and top end causing the decrease in mpg for city and highway driving. This repositioning would add nothing to the cost of the transmission but it would have to be assembled as a CVT2L and then programmed as such. Therefore you could not simply reprogram a CVT2 to become a CVT2L because it also requires an internal mechanical adjustment. It could also be accomplished by replacing the Primary or Secondary Variator with a different size, but that would more than likely add to the cost and I don’t believe that is what was done. There has never been any indication of a parts change (difference) between the two transmissions and the pricing and programming costs are the same.

More speculation:

Without the internal adjustment you would not get the 19:1 crawl ratio, but if you ran the programming for the CVT2L on a CVT2 could you get the Hill decent control, articulation, etc.?

FOR CLARIFACTION:

If you don't have the Patriot with the CVT2L and the Off-Road Package (these are not sold separately) you do not have a Jeep Trail Rating. That does not mean that you can't go Off-roading, it's just not rated for Rubicon.

EDIT 1/30/2009 It's the FINAL DRIVE in the units that make the difference between a CVT2 and a CVT2L. There is also additional programming for Hill Descent and ???
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Unread 05-04-2007, 01:22 PM   #5
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Thanks for the feedback gramps, I'm quite impressed. It's a shame they couldnt get better gas mileage out of the patriot w/off road package. I guess we'll probably buy the compass (maybe the patriot w/o off road package) and I'll just stick to using the ford for offroading (don't shoot me)
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Unread 05-04-2007, 04:51 PM   #6
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I think you guys are really downplaying the significance of the trail-rated Patriot. I'd be willing to bet that if you are not bouldering, this Jeep will perform great and WILL take you place the Compass CANNOT.

A lot of us are speculating on there being aftermarket support for the MK's, but even if there is you are going to have to do a lot to the Compass to make it comparable to the Patriot.

Skid plates, ground clearance, an off-road tuned suspension, hill descent control, off-road traction control (which only engages in "Low" gear and basically works like an electronic limited-slip....see the Toyota A-Trac for a good comparison), and the 19:1 ratio.

If aftermarket support does pick up, it will probably be for the more out-of-the-box capable model: the Patriot. It would be great if a lift kit could be universal...but even if it is, you'd still achieve more by buying a Patriot and adding it because the Pat starts out with more clearance.

As far as gas goes....21/24 is still a hell of a lot better than your average SUV. Coming from a vehicle that is getting between 16/17....I'd be happy, especially if it was a vehicle that had capability.

IMO, the bottom line is you have to give and take if you want the capability, because you aren't going to build a Compass into a Patriot even with speculated aftermarket support. There is a reason Jeep released a video of the Compass tooling around on sand dunes vs. the Patriot going over mild trails in the desert.

The guy to talk to is Expedition West....you can chat with him sometimes over at the www.***********.com site. He performed a more extensive test of the Patriot's ability then Jeep showed us....he offers pictures on his site (the link has been posted) and great insight on the previously mentioned forums.

Ask him if the Compass could go through what he put the Patriot through....at least you would get a truly informed answer.
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Unread 05-04-2007, 06:31 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unclejjg
I think you guys are really downplaying the significance of the trail-rated Patriot. I'd be willing to bet that if you are not bouldering, this Jeep will perform great and WILL take you place the Compass CANNOT.
No one is downplaying the significance of a trail-rated Patriot. What is being discussed is whether or not the OP will make enough use of the unique trail-rated capabilities to make the additional cost (of the vehicle) and ongoing cost (lesser mpg) worthwhile.
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Unread 05-04-2007, 08:03 PM   #8
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unclejjg has been prejudice against the Compass since the beginning as demonstrated in this post:

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f98/first-post-patriot-better-than-compass-315091/

No where in his soliloquy does he compare anything other that THE Patriot to THE Compass, as if they are not only unique sheet metal but as if they are also totally different platforms.
Quote:
this Jeep will perform great and WILL take you place the Compass CANNOT.
you aren't going to build a Compass into a Patriot
Ask him if the Compass could go through what he put the Patriot through
We have in several different threads posted the links to the Expeditions West article as well as Rock Crawler, the Detroit News Auto Reviews and also the link to the www.***********.com/forum/ so that others can make a well informed decision as to which package is right for them. We offer information and opinions when asked.

Scott Brady of Expeditions West has only been testing the Patriot FD II and is certainly the most informed person on that package. However, Mr Brady has not made any reference to the FD I package, available in identical forms on both the Patriot and the Compass. He doesn't need to, that's not what he is playing with, but we are.

unclejjg is a senior member on *********** forum, he should ask Mr Brady if he would put a Patriot FD I threw the same paces as he did the FD II. Maybe he will get a truly informed answer on that.

No where does unclejjg mention the Patriot with FD I or FWD. All of his comparisons are with the Compass, I believe his only intent is to slam the Compass because of his prejudices.

To think that aftermarket manufacturers are ONLY going to make parts available for the Patriot FD II is ludicrous. They will make their kits to fit as much of the MK line up as possible to generate the most sales and it will be easy for them to do because the platforms aren't just similar, they are the same.

The "off-road tuned suspension, hill descent control, off-road traction control" are enhanced versions of what are already standard on the other MKs with the Electronic Stability Program, Traction Control and Anti Roll Mitigation (with the exception of hill descent control, which Mr Brady said he turned off because the 4 wheel disc brakes were so good) but the FD II electronics are "tuned" for more heavy duty off road service and the low range of the CVT2L for the FD II.

Is the FD II package more capable than the FD I? Sure. Can even the FD I do more than most people need or want. Yes on that too. Can they be built up to do even more, yes again. It's still a Jeep.

We are not down playing the FD II, but we don't accept others down playing the other drive trains either and don't get hung up on the sheet metal either, you could get cut.
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Unread 05-04-2007, 08:23 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gramps
don't get hung up on the sheet metal either, you could get cut.
after having a hard day and then coming on here to see whats new, that comment just cracked me up and made my day all worth the trouble.
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Unread 05-05-2007, 01:58 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eighteenwheeler
We are going to buy either a compass or patriot, dependent on this question.

My wife likes the Compass, but we'll probably get the patriot because it is trail rated with the offroad options. (Yes I understand that it will never be a great offroader, but what do you expect for $20k).

The issue however is that the trail rated version has the "CVT w/crawl ratio" which is a different transmission than the standard CVT that comes on the patriot and compass. I've looked everywhere, asked my dealer, and posted up on all my current forums, but noone has any idea how this transmission compares to the standard CVT for non-offroading and gas mileage.

Clearly in buying a patriot we are not planning on doing a lot of offroading, and maybe never will even get around to it, but I like the idea of letting the wife try to join the rest of us occaisonally. I don't want to get the trail rated version if it's going to get 4 miles less per gallon or perform any worse than the standard engine/CVT combo already does.
The initial issue was:
Quote:
Originally Posted by eighteenwheeler

My wife likes the Compass, but we'll probably get the patriot because it is trail rated with the offroad options. (Yes I understand that it will never be a great offroader, but what do you expect for $20k).

To which Gramps responded:

Quote:
The advantages of the FD II off-road package over the FD I (AWD w/4WD lock) are an extra 1/2" of GC and the 19:1 low range for better rock climbing vs the 14:1 (actually 14.37) on the standard CVT2.

The disadvantages are also the 19:1 crawl ratio that likes to drink more gas (21/23mpg vs 23/26). The typical complaint about the FD I is that there is no low range, my complaint about the FD II is that it has no high range. If your using it mostly as a DD I prefer the FD I and intend to modify mine with more GC, tires, Skid plates and oil cooler. It should handle anything that I feel like doing locally.

The CVT2 and CVT2L are the same mechanically with just different programming that also includes more articulation and control for hill decent. The 4 wheel disc brakes do a nice job all by them self so is that necessary?
To which I say:

1.) You are downplaying the FDII package because it also includes an advanced traction control system and an off-road tuned suspension.....both where not included in your summary.

2.) Further, though you may be able to purchase a lift, it is unlikely you will find any "programming" that will allow you to turn your FDI into a FDII with 19:1 crawl ratio, hill descent control, and the off-road traction control. Hence my point that you cannot modify your vehicle to compete with the Patriot off-road.

3.) Nowhere in the first post do I see him comparing the Patriot's FDI to the Compass's FDI. Gramps started that comparison himself......to which I'll grant it is the same thing. However, the initial poster was interested in comparing the FDII to the FDI....and we all agree the FDII gets less gas mileage. My point is there is a reason: you are trading the mileage for capability....and you won't be able to replace the capability by tinkering with your FDI vehicle...Patriot or Compass.


As an aside, articulation has nothing to do with software. Software doesn't control how far the suspension system will bend.

As a second aside, you are right...I don't like the Compass. But I am not a hardcore Jeeper, and I couldn't care less....I don't see the logic in buying one when you could get a more masculine vehicle that is more capable for a similar price....but hey Gramps, color yours pink if you want...as long as it makes you happy. On the other hand, I think the initial poster stated upfront that he would rather have the more capable vehicle.

I have no issue with you guys stating the faults of the Patriot....or answering the question about gas mileage. You pointed out why the FDII was not worth it....I'm pointing out why it is.


As a third aside, if one where to visit the Patriot board, one would read an post where I questioned Expedition West about lifting a Patriot (or in your case a Compass). His answer was a revelation....You can only lift it so much or you will hurt the ride performance. Apparently for every inch of lift you loss an inch of the suspensions ability to drop/lower into a hole or bump. Hence, if the Patriot's suspension allows it to travel 6 inches up and 5 inches down (I'm making numbers up) then a 2" lift kit would take up 2" inches of its down travel....8 up, 3 down. Something to that affect....you can read it for yourself.

So, I believe Expedition West suggested that only a 1" to 2" lift is likely. If this is the case......you would at least be getting 11" of clearance in the Patriot, and only 10 - 10.5" in the Compass if both vehicles added the kit.

My question then is, do you think this modification would make the Compass significantly better off-road than it is now? And even if it did....its on-road manners would suffer anyways...which is something we all value. So the point is a bit mute! I don't think you guys are going to be creating any kind of an off-road vehicle out of the Compass....but hey, hopefully I'm wrong.
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Unread 05-05-2007, 03:30 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eighteenwheeler

The issue however is that the trail rated version has the "CVT w/crawl ratio" which is a different transmission than the standard CVT that comes on the patriot and compass. I've looked everywhere, asked my dealer, and posted up on all my current forums, but noone has any idea how this transmission compares to the standard CVT for non-offroading and gas mileage.
i thought this was the original ? that gramps answered right to the T.


on a side note, i thought true jeeps were built not bought. so in the case of MK owners that want to modify them with watever it may be i say more power to us!
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Unread 05-06-2007, 07:32 AM   #12
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This forum covers ALL MK’s without prejudice towards any body style or drive train.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eighteenwheeler
The issue however is that the trail rated version has the "CVT w/crawl ratio" which is a different transmission than the standard CVT that comes on the patriot and compass. I've looked everywhere, asked my dealer, and posted up on all my current forums, but none has any idea how this transmission compares to the standard CVT for non-offroading and gas mileage.
My response to eighteenwheeler made no comparison between Patriot and Compass, it simply involved the transmissions used and their relation ship to gas mileage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eighteenwheeler
Clearly in buying a patriot we are not planning on doing a lot of offroading, and maybe never will even get around to it, but I like the idea of letting the wife try to join the rest of us occasionally. I don't want to get the trail rated version if it's going to get 4 miles less per gallon or perform any worse than the standard engine/CVT combo already does.
Quote:
Originally Posted by unclejjg

1.) You are downplaying the FDII package because it also includes an advanced traction control system and an off-road tuned suspension.....both where not included in your summary.
Gas mileage was a higher priority than off-roading. I responded to his questions with his priorities in mind. I did not allude to the off-road capabilities because they were secondary and he had already research information on other sites and was already aware of the capabilities of the Patriot w/FD II.

I did note that “If you do decide to go with the FD I package the only difference between the Compass and the Patriot is the sheet metal”. Which body style they choose is up to them and not anyone else to dictate. I was reiterating that the Patriot was also available as an FD I.

My responses to eighteenwheeler answered his questions and he appeared to be satisfied.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unclejjg

2.) Further, though you may be able to purchase a lift, it is unlikely you will find any "programming" that will allow you to turn your FDI into a FDII with 19:1 crawl ratio, hill descent control, and the off-road traction control. Hence my point that you cannot modify your vehicle to compete with the Patriot off-road.

Off topic as are all of your “asides” but I will still respond: The programming and all parts are available threw the dealers if you or your money has the capabilities to install them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unclejjg

3.) Nowhere in the first post do I see him comparing the Patriot's FDI to the Compass's FDI. Gramps started that comparison himself......to which I'll grant it is the same thing. However, the initial poster was interested in comparing the FDII to the FDI....and we all agree the FDII gets less gas mileage. My point is there is a reason: you are trading the mileage for capability....and you won't be able to replace the capability by tinkering with your FDI vehicle...Patriot or Compass.
Again, I was only pointing out that the Patriot was also available as an FD I.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unclejjg

As an aside, articulation has nothing to do with software. Software doesn't control how far the suspension system will bend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gramps
The CVT2 and CVT2L are the same mechanically with just different programming that also includes more articulation and control for hill decent.
Perhaps I should have added as part of the FD II package. To me, it was obvious.

From Jeep.com:
CVT w/Off-Road Crawl Ratio:
Includes: CVT2L - second-generation continuously variable transaxle with low range, 19:1 overall crawl ratio, Skid Plates, Tow Hooks, 17-Inch Aluminum Wheels and All-Terrain Tires, Full-Size Spare Tire, Fog Lamps, Manual Seat Height Adjuster, Hill-Descent Control, Off-Road Brake Traction Control (vs. standard Brake Traction Control), +1 inch Ground Clearance vs. non-Trail Rated versions, 19” Water Fording Capability, 29.6-degree approach angle, 34.2-degree departure angle and 23.3-degree breakover angle, Heavy Duty Engine and Trans Oil Coolers w/high output Electric Fans, Heavy Duty Alternator, A/C Air Filer and other structural and calibration enhancements to meet off-road driving requirements
Quote:
Originally Posted by unclejjg

On the other hand, I think the initial poster stated upfront that he would rather have the more capable vehicle.

No, he stated that gas mileage was his priority.


Quote:
Originally Posted by unclejjg

I have no issue with you guys stating the faults of the Patriot....or answering the question about gas mileage. You pointed out why the FDII was not worth it....I'm pointing out why it is.
It may be worth it to you but doesn’t address eighteewheelers priotities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unclejjg

As a third aside, if one where to visit the Patriot board, one would read an post where I questioned Expedition West about lifting a Patriot (or in your case a Compass). His answer was a revelation....You can only lift it so much or you will hurt the ride performance. Apparently for every inch of lift you loss an inch of the suspensions ability to drop/lower into a hole or bump. Hence, if the Patriot's suspension allows it to travel 6 inches up and 5 inches down (I'm making numbers up) then a 2" lift kit would take up 2" inches of its down travel....8 up, 3 down. Something to that affect....you can read it for yourself.

So, I believe Expedition West suggested that only a 1" to 2" lift is likely. If this is the case......you would at least be getting 11" of clearance in the Patriot, and only 10 - 10.5" in the Compass if both vehicles added the kit.

There is no thread or post anywhere in this forum that I am aware of, that that has even approached, much less advocated, more than a 2” lift. The point is mute. Alluding to my Compass is a direct slam against me and to all other Compass’, I will repeat, this is and an MK forum that has no prejudice to body style.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unclejjg

My question then is, do you think this modification would make the Compass significantly better off-road than it is now? And even if it did....its on-road manners would suffer anyways...which is something we all value. So the point is a bit mute! I don't think you guys are going to be creating any kind of an off-road vehicle out of the Compass....but hey, hopefully I'm wrong.
You said yourself that the FD II package is a trade off on certain other aspects. That also applies to modifications as well and is entirely up to the MK owners. Again you slam the Compass only and this discussion is about FD I vs FD II. The “only 10” - 10 ½” is still more than the standard 9” on the stock FD II.

I read threw many forums that relate to both the Compass and Patriot and I do see a lot of misinformation being posted as gospel when some have not thoroughly researched the topics.

I have responded to your accusations as courtesy to readers so that they can have as much accurate information as possible and not a biased opinion of a true Compass hater.

You have met the requirements in the following link:
http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/annou....php?f=98&a=29
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Unread 06-04-2007, 08:57 AM   #13
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haha I guess its been a little bit since I've been back to the boards. Props to both of you on your argument however. Unlike what I've ever seen on any forum I've been a part of in my entire life, You guys just fought with facts and quotes instead of resorting to name calling and childish slander. I mean that as a serious compliment!

All the same, We chose the Compass, and bought a beautiful red loaded-minus-leather 4x4 Sport. Gas mileage was a primarily interest, as while offroading ability is clearly of interest, the main purpose is to be a daily driver for my wife.

It definately helped that they have the 750 rebate, plus patriots do not offer the employee choice pricing right now, and dealers have been selling them better in this area, so they won't bite into the holdback because they don't have to. We were able to get the compass for Employee Choice pricing, minus 750 rebate, minus significant holdback, plus convincing them to throw in some things free (such as the tonneau and roof racks).

I'm VERY happy with it. It took a while to get used to the CVT and the such, but between the price, features, options, ride quality, safety, and the fact that a 6'9" person (me) and a 6'6" person can sit one in front of the other on this small car is absolutely amazing. Nice features like "snow mode" and a full size spare helped shut out some of the competition! We like it more and more every day that we drive it.

In fact, we like it so much that I am seeing if I can scrape together the money to buy a patriot for myself. I'd sell my truck and buy a new 2 wheel drive late 90s F150 and use the patriot for every day driving and offroading. I'll probably wait for the '08s though.

props to Jeep
Props to this forum
props to all of you that helped answer my questions
props to Gramps and unclejjg and 07compass and everyone else.

Now we just get to see how it handles the Syracuse Snows! haha...
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Unread 04-05-2012, 05:16 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gramps View Post
You can read more about it here:

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=395153

With that being said I’m going to speculate on how the 19:1 crawl ratio is achieved. Don't shoot me if I'm wrong!

SPECULATION:

The Primary Variator is what selects the ratio needed, it actually "variates" . The Secondary Variator is stationary. If the Secondary variator is repositioned, then you could get a lower gear ratio on both bottom and top end causing the decrease in mpg for city and highway driving. This repositioning would add nothing to the cost of the transmission but it would have to be assembled as a CVT2L and then programmed as such. Therefore you could not simply reprogram a CVT2 to become a CVT2L because it also requires an internal mechanical adjustment. It could also be accomplished by replacing the Primary or Secondary Variator with a different size, but that would more than likely add to the cost and I don’t believe that is what was done. There has never been any indication of a parts change (difference) between the two transmissions and the pricing and programming costs are the same.

More speculation:

Without the internal adjustment you would not get the 19:1 crawl ratio, but if you ran the programming for the CVT2L on a CVT2 could you get the Hill decent control, articulation, etc.?

FOR CLARIFACTION:

If you don't have the Patriot with the CVT2L and the Off-Road Package (these are not sold separately) you do not have a Jeep Trail Rating. That does not mean that you can't go Off-roading, it's just not rated for Rubicon.

EDIT 1/30/2009 It's the FINAL DRIVE in the units that make the difference between a CVT2 and a CVT2L. There is also additional programming for Hill Descent and ???
.


Please sir What does MK stand for ?
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Unread 04-07-2012, 09:18 AM   #15
Gramps
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MK is Jeeps designation for the line just like the other lines are JK, CJ, WK, etc.
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