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Unread 02-18-2014, 04:58 PM   #16
IRSmart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by festerw View Post
As long as you don't go to that specific PA dealer, they are terrible.
i don't think it will matter where he goes, because until he understands the REAL reason jeeps he's looking at are $24k-$25k, he's going into each dealer thinking he's getting screwed and lied to, so he won't end up buying a car anywhere.

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Unread 02-18-2014, 05:56 PM   #17
tjkj2002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umbra View Post
Maybe I wasn't clear. I is dum that way sometimes.

The Patriot that I "built and priced" on the Jeep website WAS a Latitude Package ($20,495). The only change I made to the latitude package was to add the 2.4 l engine. (+$495).
20990
With Jeep incentives...subtract $2000....$18990. Add $995 destination charge...final manufacturer price...19985

The Jeep site even goes as far as to add in my down payment and advise me that I would be only financing $16,266

So, since I don't get, can you tell me where the extra 3500-5000 bucks is coming from on the Latitudes here at the local dealers?
If you like the website price order it off the website for that price,problem solved but you will have to wait for it to be built and delivered.


Those matches your finding have added options on top of what you want and why there more $$$.
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Unread 02-18-2014, 05:59 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRSmart View Post
no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no! that's not the answer. do you seriously believe that dealers could get away with that? come on, now.

the ones that you're finding in the $24k range have additional equipment on them bringing the price up. my latitude was over $26,000 in the MSRP. it has the security & cargo group, sun/sound, 4x4, automatic transmission, and the 430 radio. jeep's website is simply bad at finding vehicles that are an exact match to what you're looking for, probably because what you configured (a 4x2 stick shift latitude) is very hard to find. do you understand now??

it's Ludacris to think that the dealers are marking their cars UP $4,000 in today's competitive market.

EDIT: OP, to prove my point, here's what I want you to do. go to jeep's website, and do exactly what you did before where it showed you cars that were in the $24k-$25k range. this time, I want you to post the link to that page. i'll do the rest.

Ludacris is a hip-hop artist. Ludicrous is the term you are grasping for.

Try to assume for a second that I am not a moron. Imagine that it's POSSIBLE that dealers price regionally based on sales and demographics in a specific area.
Then imagine that it's possible that I checked several models closely on websites that I was directed to by Jeep, and websites that I checked independently. Assume that I looked at various models through dealer websites, in various configurations and can't find any explanation for why there is a significant difference in prices between what Jeep calls MSRP and what the dealers charge and claim is MSRP.

I repeat, I configured a Jeep Patriot Latitude. The option I added was the engine upgrade to the 2.4. Period. It comes with the manual transmission. MSRP $19,985. Jeeps price which includes destination charges.The Jeep site then directs me to this "High Match":


2014 MODEL YEAR
PATRIOT LATITUDE
FWD
PRICE INFORMATION
MANUFACTURER'S SUGGESTED RETAIL PRICE OF
THIS MODEL INCLUDING DEALER PREPARATION
Base Price: $ 20,395
JEEP PATRIOT LATITUDE FWD

Notice that this dealers "base price" for a Latitude is already $410 above my Jeeps TOTAL MSRP for "dealer prep". This is their starting price.

The options added:
Customer Preferred Package 25B
Sun/Sound Group $1295
2.4L DOHC 16 Valve Dual VVT Engine $ 485
Destination Charge $995

Total MSRP:$23,170

So, the same Patriot I configured minus color ($0) and the sound package. $3200 difference, subtract the sound package and there is still $2000 difference in price.

This is one example, others are worse.
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Unread 02-18-2014, 06:20 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umbra View Post
Ludacris is a hip-hop artist. Ludicrous is the term you are grasping for.

Try to assume for a second that I am not a moron. Imagine that it's POSSIBLE that dealers price regionally based on sales and demographics in a specific area.
Then imagine that it's possible that I checked several models closely on websites that I was directed to by Jeep, and websites that I checked independently. Assume that I looked at various models through dealer websites, in various configurations and can't find any explanation for why there is a significant difference in prices between what Jeep calls MSRP and what the dealers charge and claim is MSRP.

I repeat, I configured a Jeep Patriot Latitude. The option I added was the engine upgrade to the 2.4. Period. It comes with the manual transmission. MSRP $19,985. Jeeps price which includes destination charges.The Jeep site then directs me to this "High Match":


2014 MODEL YEAR
PATRIOT LATITUDE
FWD
PRICE INFORMATION
MANUFACTURER'S SUGGESTED RETAIL PRICE OF
THIS MODEL INCLUDING DEALER PREPARATION
Base Price: $ 20,395
JEEP PATRIOT LATITUDE FWD

Notice that this dealers "base price" for a Latitude is already $410 above my Jeeps TOTAL MSRP for "dealer prep". This is their starting price.

The options added:
Customer Preferred Package 25B
Sun/Sound Group $1295
2.4L DOHC 16 Valve Dual VVT Engine $ 485
Destination Charge $995

Total MSRP:$23,170

So, the same Patriot I configured minus color ($0) and the sound package. $3200 difference, subtract the sound package and there is still $2000 difference in price.

This is one example, others are worse.
so I misspelled a word, you're right.

you still aren't getting it. I've been doing this for years, the only discrepancy is the difference in regional incentive programs. dealers aren't marking their cars up $4,000. it just isn't happening. something else to consider, is that when you build a car on jeep's website, it is building to you the NET MSRP, not the MSRP. the NET msrp is the sticker price after rebates. so there could be some of the discrepancy you're seeing.

it's impossible for a dealer to manipulate the MSRP in any way, other than putting an addendum sticker on the car itself on the lot. read: "IMPOSSIBLE". we're not calling you stupid, we're trying to help you understand a topic that you admittedly have little experience in. you're not just off-base, you're not even playing the same sport anymore. we're simply trying to help you see things correctly. the MSRP of the vehicle is set by the manufacturer, not the dealer. now, the ADVERTISED SALE PRICE is set to fluctuate from dealer to dealer, but that's not the argument here.

EDIT: I confirmed part of your problem. I was correct above, and the TURE MSRP for the patriot you have built is $20,495, NOT $19,985. Then, you still need to add $995 destination, bringing it to $21,490. THAT is the real window sticker price for a patriot latitude if you go to a dealer's lot that happens to have this particular odd-ball jeep. the price you're seeing on jeep's website is the MSRP without destination included, and with a $500 rebate applied.

now, on to the reason that the "example cars" jeep's website is showing you is so off. you're configuring a jeep that no dealer in their right mind will stock a ton of. you want a latitude, which is a fairly well-equipped model, with a manual transmission and 2 wheel drive. I used to be our ordering manager for the jeep store. I can tell you that to have more than one jeep on the lot, if not none at all, like this one would be suicide. so since jeep doesn't have an exact match to show you, it's showing you cars that are "close". now, "close" is an opinionated term. they may not be close in your eyes, but they're as good as it's going to get from an automated system. it's not that dealers are arbitrarily adding several thousand dollars to the price to try and make a profit on an unsuspecting victim, it's that since Jeep can't show you exact matches, it finds the next best thing in a particular search radius.

NOW do you understand where the discrepancy is coming from?
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Unread 02-18-2014, 06:21 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by festerw View Post
As long as you don't go to that specific PA dealer, they are terrible.
Sorry to hear you've had problems with this dealer, but I'm kind of surprised. I've bought 5 vehicles there since 1984, the last one being my JGC last year, and haven't had any problems with the sales or service departments.
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Unread 02-18-2014, 06:32 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRSmart View Post
so I misspelled a word, you're right.

you still aren't getting it. I've been doing this for years, the only discrepancy is the difference in regional incentive programs. dealers aren't marking their cars up $4,000. it just isn't happening. something else to consider, is that when you build a car on jeep's website, it is building to you the NET MSRP, not the MSRP. the NET msrp is the sticker price after rebates. so there could be some of the discrepancy you're seeing.

it's impossible for a dealer to manipulate the MSRP in any way, other than putting an addendum sticker on the car itself on the lot. read: "IMPOSSIBLE". we're not calling you stupid, we're trying to help you understand a topic that you admittedly have little experience in. you're not just off-base, you're not even playing the same sport anymore. we're simply trying to help you see things correctly. the MSRP of the vehicle is set by the manufacturer, not the dealer. now, the ADVERTISED SALE PRICE is set to fluctuate from dealer to dealer, but that's not the argument here.
Oh, I see. So it is the "net MSRP", the actual MSRP and the ADVERTISED SALE PRICE that fluctuates from dealer to dealer along with the regional incentive programs and the "dealer prep".

It's so clear to me now. Gosh I feel silly.
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Unread 02-18-2014, 06:36 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRSmart View Post
i don't think it will matter where he goes, because until he understands the REAL reason jeeps he's looking at are $24k-$25k, he's going into each dealer thinking he's getting screwed and lied to, so he won't end up buying a car anywhere.
I'm still waiting for the two salespeople I spoke to to tell me the REAL reason
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Unread 02-18-2014, 06:49 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRSmart View Post


EDIT:
now, on to the reason that the "example cars" jeep's website is showing you is so off. you're configuring a jeep that no dealer in their right mind will stock a ton of. you want a latitude, which is a fairly well-equipped model, with a manual transmission and 2 wheel drive. I used to be our ordering manager for the jeep store. I can tell you that to have more than one jeep on the lot, if not none at all, like this one would be suicide. so since jeep doesn't have an exact match to show you, it's showing you cars that are "close". now, "close" is an opinionated term. they may not be close in your eyes, but they're as good as it's going to get from an automated system. it's not that dealers are arbitrarily adding several thousand dollars to the price to try and make a profit on an unsuspecting victim, it's that since Jeep can't show you exact matches, it finds the next best thing in a particular search radius.

NOW do you understand where the discrepancy is coming from?
Not really.
I posted the example of an identical Jeep to the one I want with the exception of the sound system. Still a 2k difference after subtracting that.

I do understand some of what you are saying, and I appreciate you trying to explain some of it.

I get that dealers need some wiggle room, I also get that an automated system sees only black and white.

But the fact remains that some of the Patriots I've looked at on these sites have a significant, unexplained mark up.

I'm going out to one of these dealers this weekend to look and drive. Maybe it will make more sense.

I strongly suspect that Jeep's site is including some incentives and discounts that the dealers won't advertise, but will include when someone is actually sitting there.

We'll see.
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Unread 02-18-2014, 08:13 PM   #24
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The REAL crazy thing is the dealer does not put on the marone sticker on the car. The manufacturer does. All the dealer can do is discount the car from there and give the benefit of rebates to the client to lower the cost. Yes, some dealers might accessorize a certain number of cars from there with wheels, tint, or what not, but stock from the factory M.S.R.P. is set my manufacturer, and most of the cars will not be accessorized.

The internet is a very dangerous place when it comes to getting info sometimes. You guys are right about the option packages and the guy just isn't getting it. It is a shame he is driving his self crazy thinking he is getting screwed by the dealer, he is taking the whole pleasure of getting a new car. So many people feel this way. Of course it is OK that they may make $150,000.00 running a non for profit or making $80,000.00 working for a drug company or hospital that prices medicine so far out of the reach of the average joe, and the whole automobile business is one of the most regulated business' in the world. The car salesman is looked down upon so much, and it is so hard to make a living in the business. The worst thing is how a lot of union autoworkers who want to ensure a living wage come and tell the salesman that they don't care if the salesman doesn't make a dime. They also complain to the dealer about the quality of the car they themselves built. Much like the fuel efficiency numbers are defined by the E.P.A. but the manufacturer gets blamed because people don't get the numbers. Doesn't matter if the driver lets his car idle up to an hour a day, sits in a drive thru 4 times a day and drives like a damned manic, it is the fault of the manufacturer and of course the face of the manufacturer is the dealer and salesperson. We get the heat. The average dealer has about a 10% mark up from invoice to M.S.R.P. Less than Wal-Mart has on shoes, or a lumber yard on lumber and I wonder what the mark up percentage on his damn Starbucks is and no one bends over backwards to earn your business more than a professional Automobile sales person. It is a damn shame too.

The dealership is going the way of the old hardware store. Used to be in an old hardware store you could walk in and ask how to fix the sink. Walk into the average big box store and ask how to fix a faucet or what a 16 penny sinker is. That 18 year old kid isn't going to have the faintest idea. The old car guy could talk gears, engines, timing, shocks and stuff, but because of the little money a car salesman now makes, the dealership hires who ever they can to get to work the LONG hours and get belittled by customers like this guy, skip lunch because the customer can only come in from 11:00 until 3:00 and then the guy storms out because he thinks he is getting ripped off, and the salesman sits there dumbfounded with no money made for the day, hungry tired and wore out. Hell, I can't believe I still do this for a living. It is the only job I have ever had that I have never been given a raise. The Army at least gave me a raise for inflation. 3 years ago, they changed our pay plan and I took a pay cut after 7 years with the company. Flippin' sad and this guy thinks we are all trying to rip him off. I wonder what he does for a living?
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Unread 02-18-2014, 08:27 PM   #25
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I'm CEO of a non-profit company. On weekends I moonlight for a pharmaceutical corp. That's why I'm looking at an expensive ride like a Patriot.
I also kick puppies and scam old ladies in my free time.
Oh, and I own a Starbucks, so my drinks are all free.
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Unread 02-18-2014, 09:10 PM   #26
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Mr. Thedawgshow, please read post #18, then tell me about which option packages you are referring to and tell me why I "just don't get it".
The Patriot I listed has exactly 1 option more than the Patriot I built on Jeep's site.
Still $2000 more after subtracting the 1250 for the sound system upgrade...what don't I get about the options?

I go to a dealer site, I find a Patriot very similar to the one I want, plus or minus a minor difference, and the price is 2-5k more than Jeep says it should be.

It's been implied that I ain't too bright. OK, probably true.

So if Jeep says that Patriot MSRP is 20,000, but the dealer says the same Patriot with a 1200 dollar option added is actually $25,000, It doesn't add up.

Obviously, I'm too dumb to buy a new Patriot. Or maybe Jeep and Jeep dealers should get on the same page and have the same pricing and info for all of us stupid people.

Either way, thanks for the input fellas.
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Unread 02-18-2014, 09:11 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by umbra View Post
I'm CEO of a non-profit company. On weekends I moonlight for a pharmaceutical corp. That's why I'm looking at an expensive ride like a Patriot.
I also kick puppies and scam old ladies in my free time.
Oh, and I own a Starbucks, so my drinks are all free.
Hahahahaha!!!! That was pretty funny. I only mention those things, because that is the stuff I see every day. Lawyers who make $250.00 an hour, a couple who both pay themselves $150,000 a year to run their own not for profit, and drinking Starbucks and then complain because they think the salesman is trying to get over on them. I see it ALL the time. It is crazy!!!!

I mean it with all my heart, that if you can go in with an open mind, find a guy you like and trust and let him earn your business, that salesperson will bend over backwards to make you happy. I know I would.

I am also serious about the whole mark up percentage. It is only on average, about 10%. Yes, that is $2,000.00 for a $20,000.00 car, but if you only knew the overhead to run a dealership, I think you would be amazed. Or even what the salesman has to do to get the cars on the lot ready after all these brutal snowstorms.

We try real hard to make it look effortless, and look like it runs smooth, but behind the scenes it is flippin NUTS!!!!

Now don't get me wrong, dealer principles do make a lot of money on their dealerships, but they do take a HUGE risk. Oh, and they don't make near what the old C.E.O. of GM made for running the maker into the ground and bankrupt. All the while with a golden parachute so after he is gone and we are all footing the bill to keep GM afloat he is still making billions. Oh and not near what the family of Wal-Mart makes, or the Smucker family for that matter.

Like I said, the dealers are so regulated, they can not get away with screwing anyone.

What is real crazy is how companies make millions on teaching us, the comsumer, not to let a dealer make a dime. That is crazy!!!!

I am sorry if I offended you, but you certainly offended me with your remarks on here first. Like I said, I would bend over backwards to earn your business if given the chance.

Today, I had a scientist from Ely Lilly ( the worlds largest drug maker), who makes a LOT of money come in at lunch time, take up 4 hours, half my day and never bought a car. So I din't make a dime. She was at least very nice and never mislead me. She stated from the beginning she was not going to buy a car today, but wanted a test drive, and all the imformation she could get her hands on, so she would know 1. if she even liked the car compared to other makes and models she is looking at and what was the best way to finance it. I gave her A1 treatment from beginning to end and hope that she will like my product, and myself enough to come back and purchase from me. Oh, and the price I gave her from M.S.R.P. is FAR less markup than the 10% the sticker has.

Once again, find a salesperson you like, have an open mind, and be kind with your words and the whole experience will be GREAT. If all else fails, let me sell the car to you. I have sold cars to people all over the world thanks to the internet, and even to a guy who lives in China!!!!
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Unread 02-18-2014, 09:16 PM   #28
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You didn't offend me at all. I love a good joust, and I am a smart@$$ genetically.

I really do appreciate the info.

I just assume (wrongly?) that a certain percentage of profit for the dealer is built in to the MSRP...no? yes?

PS...I am a retired local govt employee, and some people liked me even less than a car salesman
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Unread 02-18-2014, 09:30 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by umbra View Post
Mr. Thedawgshow, please read post #18, then tell me about which option packages you are referring to and tell me why I "just don't get it".
The Patriot I listed has exactly 1 option more than the Patriot I built on Jeep's site.
Still $2000 more after subtracting the 1250 for the sound system upgrade...what don't I get about the options?

I go to a dealer site, I find a Patriot very similar to the one I want, plus or minus a minor difference, and the price is 2-5k more than Jeep says it should be.

It's been implied that I ain't too bright. OK, probably true.

So if Jeep says that Patriot MSRP is 20,000, but the dealer says the same Patriot with a 1200 dollar option added is actually $25,000, It doesn't add up.

Obviously, I'm too dumb to buy a new Patriot. Or maybe Jeep and Jeep dealers should get on the same page and have the same pricing and info for all of us stupid people.

Either way, thanks for the input fellas.
I do not think that you are not "bright". Hell, I am a vary talented high school drop out. Hahahahahaha!!!!! I do think you have too much info running in you head. I would suggest going to Edmunds.com and finding out what they believe the "True Market Value" of the car is, and then maybe KBB also and find out what the going rate for the particular car is. They will both be a little different but close. Edmunds will even tell you almost exactly how much the dealer pays for the car. Sad but true. Your sure can't find out what the furniture store paid for their over priced mattress.

The manufacturer's websites are very generic. USA automakers have so many option packages it is very difficult to compare apples to apples. The dealers order and then purchase from the manufacturer what they think they can sell and that is what is on their lot. Then the whole computer thing gets involved with non-car guys making the websites and messing it all up because they don't know cars.

The dealer wants to sell what is on his lot, because it costs him money to have it on his lot. Interest, depreciation, and even "lot damage". This is why discounting ever started in the first place. Not to mention if your state has inventory tax. Truth be told, the government makes more on cars than anyone. Most of them never took fire while in a fox hole like so many men in my family, but they sure get paid!!!!

I will say it again, if you can not find anyone you like to work with in the purchase of your Patriot, let me know and I will call you personally and try to make the transaction as easy and comfortable as possible. Like I said, I sell cars all over the world and would love to have you as a customer and friend if possible.
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Unread 02-18-2014, 09:35 PM   #30
Thedawgshow
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Originally Posted by umbra View Post
You didn't offend me at all. I love a good joust, and I am a smart@$$ genetically.

I really do appreciate the info.

I just assume (wrongly?) that a certain percentage of profit for the dealer is built in to the MSRP...no? yes?

PS...I am a retired local govt employee, and some people liked me even less than a car salesman
Generally 10% depending on manufacturer. besides rebates, generally speaking, all other discount is given by the dealership.

What did you do for the government. I jumped out of planes and shot 155MM rounds down range for a few years. Sure didn't pay enough for all the sand I had to eat.
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