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Unread 01-24-2008, 06:58 AM   #1
CharBroiled
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hill decent control with CVT2 (not CVT2L)?

seems theres some info on a "hidden" hill decent mode on a regular CVT2 floating around, whats up with that?

my patriot FD I has a "L" gate on the shifter and I use it for going down hills, in parking lots and some side streets.. is that "L" mode the CVT2 version of hill decent? it does keep your speed down on hills without riding the brakes but it doesnt seem to work like the CVT2L FD II version which, as well as having a lower (higher?) ratio also applies the brakes.

Gramps? you Da Man, what say you?

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Unread 01-24-2008, 07:59 AM   #2
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This is just a preview of what I'll post tonight.

Downhill Engine Brake Control
When a downhill condition is detected while the accelerator pedal is released, the engine brake will be increased by downshifting so as to limit acceleration of the vehicle. Also, if uphill is detected, acceleration performance is improved by limiting the shift area on the highest side of the gear ratio.

Acceleration Control
According to vehicle speed and a increase of accelerator pedal angle, driver's request for acceleration as well as driving conditions are measured. At the time of starting or acceleration while moving, this function improves in acceleration feeling by making the engine speed proportionate to the vehicle speed. Even at the time of slower acceleration, a shift map which can gain a larger driving force is chosen for compatibility of mileage with drivability.
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Unread 01-24-2008, 09:00 PM   #3
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CVT Operation and Controls

TCM
The transmission control module (TCM) is inside the car, behind the instrument panel where the clutch pedal would be located. New controllers are shipped with generic software but need to be initialized for the vehicle into which it is installed.

Shift Control
In order to select the gear ratio which can obtain the driving force in accordance with driver's intention and the vehicle condition, TCM monitors the driving conditions, such as the vehicle speed and the throttle position and selects the optimum gear ratio, and determines the gear change steps to the gear ratio. Then it sends the command to the stepping motor, and controls the flow-in/flow-out of line pressure to/from the primary pulley to determine the position of the moving-pulley and control the gear ratio.

Selection of the gear ratio is set for every position separately.

“Drive” Position
Shifting is available over all the ranges of gear ratios from the lowest to the highest.

When using the Manual Mode (Vehicles with the manual mode)
When the manual mode switch is turned ON, the fixed changing gear line is set. By moving the switch to + side or – side, shift change is like a M/T and selects from a range of 6 pre-programmed gear ranges.

By limiting the shift to the area nearest the low side of the gear ratio, a larger driving force and engine brake are secured.

Downhill Engine Brake Control
When a downhill condition is detected while the accelerator pedal is released, the engine brake will be increased by downshifting so as to limit acceleration of the vehicle. Also, if uphill is detected, acceleration performance is improved by limiting the shift area on the highest side of the gear ratio.

Acceleration Control
According to vehicle speed and a increase of accelerator pedal angle, driver's request for acceleration as well as driving conditions are measured. At the time of starting or acceleration while moving, this function improves in acceleration feeling by making the engine speed proportionate to the vehicle speed. Even at the time of slower acceleration, a shift map which can gain a larger driving force is chosen for compatibility of mileage with drivability.

Line Pressure and Secondary Pressure ControlControl of line pressure and secondary pressure with a high degree of accuracy has reduced friction and improved fuel economy.

Normal Fluid Pressure Control
The line pressure and the secondary pressure are optimized depending on driving conditions, on the basis of the throttle position, the engine speed, the primary pulley (input) revolution speed, the secondary pulley (output) revolution speed, the stop lamp SW signal, the PNP switch signal, the lock-up signal, the voltage, the target gear ratio, the fluid temperature, and the fluid pressure.

Secondary Pressure Feedback ControlWhen controlling the normal fluid pressure or the fluid pressure at the time of selection, the secondary pressure can be set more accurately by using the fluid pressure sensor to detect the secondary pressure and performing the feedback control.

Lock-up Control
The lock-up applied gear range has been expanded by locking up the torque converter at a lower vehicle speed than conventional A/T models.

Selection Control
When selecting between N (P) and D(R) position, the optimum operating pressure is set on the basis of the throttle position, the engine speed, and the secondary pulley (output) revolution speed to lessen the select shock.

CAN Communication
Real-time communications (signal exchanges) are maintained among the control units such as the CVT, C/U, ECM, combination meter etc. Each unit is controlled optimally depending on vehicle driving conditions while sharing information and in cooperating with the other control units.

In CAN (Controller Area Network) communication, control units are connected with two communication lines (CAN-H line, CAN-L line) allowing a high rate of information to be transmitted by fewer wirings. Each control unit transmits/receives data but selectively reads required data only.

Inputs and Outputs (see Fig BB )

Engine/CVT Integration Control (CAN Communication Control)
In order to improve gearshift feeling and to perform controls such as prevention of engine slowdown, engine power control signals are intercommunicated between the engine ECM and the TCM, and real-time cooperative controls depending on vehicle driving conditions are performed.

TCM sends information such as fast slowdown signals, lock-up signals, torque down request signals to ECM, while receiving information such as torque down permission/prohibition signals, lock-up permission/prohibition signals, throttle position from ECM.

Fail-safe Function
If an unexpected signal is sent from any sensor, switch, solenoid etc., this function controls the CVT to make driving as smooth as possible.

Secondary Speed Sensor
The shift pattern is changed in accordance with throttle position when an unexpected signal is sent from the output speed sensor (secondary speed sensor) to the TCM. The manual mode position or the sports mode position is inhibited, and the transaxle is put in “D”.

Primary Speed Sensor
The shift pattern is changed in accordance with throttle position and secondary speed (vehicle speed) when an unexpected signal is sent from the primary speed sensor to the TCM. The manual mode function or the sports mode function is inhibited, and the transaxle is put in “D”.

PNP Switch
If an unexpected signal is sent from the PNP switch to the TCM, the transaxle is put in “D”.

Fluid Temperature Sensor
If an unexpected signal is sent from the fluid temperature sensor to the TCM, the gear ratio obtained immediately before receiving the unexpected signal is maintained and the gear ratio is controlled to keep engine speed under 5,000 rpm (approximately), depending on driving conditions.

Secondary Pressure Sensor
If an unexpected signal is sent from the secondary pressure sensor to the TCM, the secondary pressure feedback control is stopped and the offset value obtained immediately before the non-standard condition occurs is used to control line pressure.

Line Pressure Solenoid
If an unexpected condition of the solenoid is detected by the TCM, the line pressure solenoid is turned OFF to achieve the maximum fluid pressure.

Secondary Pressure Solenoid
If an unexpected condition of the secondary solenoid is detected by the TCM, the secondary pressure solenoid is turned OFF to achieve the maximum fluid pressure.

Lock-up solenoid
If an unexpected condition of the lock-up solenoid is detected by the TCM, the lock-up solenoid is turned OFF to cancel the lock-up.

Stepping Motor
If an unexpected condition of the stepping motor is detected by the TCM, the stepping motor coil phases “A” through “D” are all turned OFF to hold the gear ratio used immediately before the unexpected condition occurred.

Lock-up/Selection Switching Solenoid
If an unexpected condition of the solenoid is detected by the TCM, the lock-up/selection switching solenoid is turned OFF to cancel the lock-up.

Backup Power Supply
Transaxle assembly is protected by limiting the engine torque when the memory back-up power supply for controlling from the battery is not supplied to the TCM. Normal status is restored when turning the ignition switch OFF to ON after power is normally supplied

TCM
1. Shift control
2. Line pressure control
3. Selection control
4. Lock-up control
5. Engine/CVT integration control [CAN communication control]
6. Self-diagnosis function
7. Fail-safe function

Primary Speed Sensor, Secondary Speed Sensor
Primary Speed Sensor It is installed near the CVT fluid cooler in the transaxle case. It sends rotating speed of the primary pulley (input shaft) to the TCM as a pulse signal.

Secondary Speed Sensor It is installed near the output gear part in the transaxle case. It sends rotating speed of the secondary pulley (output shaft) to the TCM as a pulse signal. TCM converts the pulse signal to vehicle speed.

STANDARD PROCEDURE - TRANSMISSION CONTROL MODULE INITIALIZATION
NOTE: Refer to the following table when the Transmission Control Module (TCM) and/or transaxle has been replaced to determine if the TCM memory must be erased.


TCM Transaxle Erase Memory?

New Module Not Replaced Not Required

Not Replaced Replaced Required

Replaced With Used Module N/A

INITIAL LEARN (BRAND-NEW MODULE, MEMORY ALREADY CLEAR)
Battery must be connected. If the Totally Integrated Power Module (TIPM) is to be configured, configure the TIPM and then turn ignition key to OFF/LOCKED briefly, then back to RUN. The shifter must be in PARK or NEUTRAL, engine not running.

1. Turn the ignition key to RUN for 4 seconds to allow reading of new values.
2. Turn ignition key to OFF/LOCKED for 2 seconds to allow storing new values in EEROM.
3. Turn the ignition key to RUN, with scan tool clear DTCs.
4. Turn ignition key to OFF/LOCKED for 2 seconds.
5. After at least 7 seconds, read DTCs.
6. If DTCs resets (Refer to 21 - TRANSMISSION/TRANSAXLE/AUTOMATIC - CVT - DIAGNOSIS AND TESTING)

RELEARN, AFTER REPLACING A TRANSAXLE

1. Turn ignition key to RUN.
2. Clear learning memory using the scan tool.
3. Turn the ignition key to OFF/LOCKED for 2 seconds.
4. Turn the ignition key to RUN Clear DTCs.
5. Turn the ignition key to OFF/LOCKED for 2 seconds.
6. Turn ignition key to RUN.
7. After at least 7 seconds, read DTCs.

Gear Selector Indicator

An electronic automatic transmission gear selector indicator is standard factory-installed equipment on this vehicle. However, on vehicles not equipped with an optional automatic transmission (AutoStick), this indicator is electronically disabled. The gear selector indicator information is displayed in the upper portion of the odometer Vacuum Fluorescent Display (VFD) unit. This VFD unit is soldered onto the cluster electronic circuit board, and is visible through a window with a smoked clear lens located on the lower edge of the tachometer dial face of the cluster overlay. The dark lens over the VFD unit prevents the indicator from being clearly visible when it is not illuminated.

The gear selector indicator displays the following characters from left to right: P, R, N, D and a fifth, reconfigurable character (FigA). The reconfigurable character can be any number 1 through 6. Each character appears in a blue-green color and at the same lighting level as the odometer information. Respectively, these characters represent the PARK, REVERSE, NEUTRAL, DRIVE and each of the forward drive gear positions of the transmission gear selector lever on the floor panel transmission tunnel. The indicator also illuminates a box around the character that represents the currently selected lever position.

During daylight hours (exterior lamps are OFF) the VFD unit is illuminated at full brightness for clear visibility. At night (exterior lamps are ON), the VFD unit lighting level is adjusted with the other cluster general illumination lamps using the panel lamps dimmer function of the interior lighting control sleeve on the left multi-function switch control stalk. However, a PARADE mode position of the control sleeve allows the VFD unit to be illuminated at full brightness if the exterior lamps are turned ON during daylight hours.

The gear selector indicator is serviced as a unit with the VFD unit in the instrument cluster.

The electronic gear selector indicator gives an indication to the vehicle operator of the transmission gear that has been selected with the automatic transmission gear selector lever. This indicator is controlled by the instrument cluster circuit board based upon cluster programming and electronic messages received from the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) over the Controller Area Network (CAN) data bus.

The gear selector indicator information is displayed by the odometer Vacuum Fluorescent Display (VFD) unit soldered onto the instrument cluster electronic circuit board, and the VFD will not display the gear selector indicator information after the ignition switch is turned to the OFF position. Each time the cluster is disconnected from battery current for more than about five minutes, it must configure itself for the automatic transmission type that is in the vehicle once it is reconnected to battery current. The instrument cluster circuitry operates the gear selector indicator to provide the following features:

Selected Gear Message - Each time the cluster receives an electronic selected gear message from the PCM, a box will be illuminated around the appropriate character in the gear selector indicator. The brackets will remain illuminated until the cluster receives a different selected gear message, or until the ignition switch is turned to the OFF position, whichever occurs first.
Communication Error - If the cluster fails to receive a selected gear message from the PCM within three seconds, the instrument cluster circuitry will display all gear selector positions boxed (selected) until a valid selected gear message is received or until the ignition switch is turned to the OFF position, whichever occurs first.
Actuator Test - Each time the cluster is put through the actuator test, the odometer VFD unit will display all of its characters at once to confirm the functionality of the VFD unit and the cluster control circuitry.
The PCM continually monitors a hard wired multiplex input from the Transmission Range Sensor (TRS), then sends the proper message to the ElectroMechanical Instrument Cluster (EMIC).

For proper diagnosis of the TRS, the PCM, the EMIC, the CAN data bus or the electronic communication related to gear selector indicator operation a diagnostic scan tool is required. Refer to the appropriate diagnostic information.
abc.jpg   6trs-wiring.jpg   7trs-tcm-all.jpg   8cvt-wiring-all.jpg  
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Unread 01-24-2008, 09:01 PM   #4
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POWERTRAIN CONTROL MODULE

PCM GROUND
Ground is provided through multiple pins of the PCM connector. Depending on the vehicle there may be as many as two different ground pins. There are power grounds and sensor grounds.

The power grounds are used to control the ground side relays, solenoids, ignition coil or injectors. The signal ground is used for any input that uses sensor return for ground, and the ground side of any internal processing component.

The PCM case is shielded to prevent RFI and EMI. The PCM case is grounded and must be firmly attached to a good, clean body ground.

Internally all grounds are connected together, however there is noise suppression on the sensor ground. For EMI and RFI protection the housing and cover are also grounded separately from the ground pins.

SENSOR RETURN - PCM INPUT
The sensor return circuit provides a low electrical noise ground reference for all of the systems sensors. The sensor return circuit connects to internal ground circuits within the Powertrain Control Module (PCM).

The PCM receives input signals from various switches and sensors that are referred to as PCM Inputs. Based on these inputs, the PCM adjusts various engine and vehicle operations through devices that are referred to as PCM Outputs .

NOTE: PCM Inputs:

Air Conditioning Controls
Battery Voltage
Brake Switch
Camshaft Position Sensor
Clutch Upstop Switch
Clutch Interlock
Crankshaft Position Sensor
Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor
Fuel Level Sensor (Bus message)
Ignition Switch
Intake Air Temperature Sensor
Knock Sensor
Evaporative System Integrity Monitor
Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) Sensor
Oil Pressure Switch
Oxygen Sensors
Power Steering Pressure Switch
Speed Control Switches
Vehicle Speed Sensor (MTX-equipped models)

NOTE: PCM Outputs:
Air Conditioning Clutch Relay
Charging Indicator Lamp (Bus Message)
Proportional Purge Solenoid
Fuel Injectors
Generator Field
Ignition Coils
Malfunction Indicator (Check Engine) Lamp (Bus Message)
Manifold Flow Valve
Oxygen Sensors Heater Controls
Variable Valve Timing
Vehicle Speed (Manual Transmission)
Based on inputs it receives, the PCM adjusts fuel injector pulse width, idle speed, ignition spark advance, ignition coil dwell and EVAP canister purge operation. The PCM also determines the appropriate transmission shift schedule and shift points, depending on the present operating conditions and driver demand. The PCM regulates the cooling fan, air conditioning and speed control systems. The PCM changes generator charge rate by adjusting the generator field. The PCM also performs diagnostics.

The PCM adjusts injector pulse width (air-fuel ratio) based on the following inputs.

Battery voltage
Coolant temperature
Exhaust gas content (oxygen sensor)
Engine speed (crankshaft position sensor)
Intake air temperature
Manifold absolute pressure
Throttle position
The PCM adjusts ignition timing based on the following inputs.

Coolant temperature
Engine speed (crankshaft position sensor)
Knock sensor
Manifold absolute pressure
Throttle position
Transmission gear selection (park/neutral switch)
Intake air temperature
The PCM also adjusts engine idle speed through the idle air control motor based on the following inputs.

Air conditioning sense
Battery voltage
Brake switch
Coolant temperature
Engine speed (crankshaft position sensor)
Engine run time
Manifold absolute pressure
Power steering pressure switch
Throttle position
Transmission gear selection (park/neutral switch)
Vehicle distance (speed)

The camshaft position sensor and crankshaft position sensor signals are sent to the PCM. If the PCM does not receive the signal within approximately 1 second of engine cranking, it deactivates the fuel pump. When these are deactivated, power is shut off to the fuel injectors, ignition coils, oxygen sensor heating elements and fuel pump.

The PCM contains a voltage converter that changes battery voltage to a regulated 5 volts direct current to power the camshaft position sensor, crankshaft position sensor, manifold absolute pressure sensor, throttle position sensor, A/C pressure switch, A/C pressure transducer, and vehicle speed sensor.

5 VOLT SUPPLY - PCM OUTPUTThe PCM supplies 5 volts to the following sensors:
• A/C pressure transducer
• Ambient Temperature sensor
• Battery temperature
• Camshaft Position Sensor (NGC)
• Crankshaft Position Sensor (NGC)
• Engine coolant temperature sensor
• Inlet Air Temperature Sensor
• Knock sensor
• Linear EGR solenoid (if equipped)
• Manifold absolute pressure sensor
• Oil Pressure Switch

PINION FACTOR SETTING
NOTE: This procedure must be performed if the PCM has been replaced with a NEW or replacement unit. Failure to perform this procedure will result in an inoperative or improperly calibrated speedometer.

The vehicle speed readings for the speedometer are taken from the output speed sensor. The PCM must be calibrated to the different combinations of equipment (final drive and tires) available. Pinion Factor allows the technician to set the Powertrain Control Module initial setting so that the speedometer readings will be correct. To properly read and/or reset the Pinion Factor, it is necessary to use a scan tool.


1. Plug the scan tool into the diagnostic connector located under the instrument panel.
2. Select the Transmission menu.
3. Select the Miscellaneous menu.
4. Select Pinion Factor. Then follow the instructions on the scan tool screen.

INSTALATION
USE THE SCAN TOOL TO REPROGRAM THE NEW POWERTRAIN CONTROL MODULE (PCM) WITH THE VEHICLES ORIGINAL IDENTIFICATION NUMBER (VIN) AND THE VEHICLES ORIGINAL MILEAGE. IF THIS STEP IS NOT DONE, A DIAGNOSTIC TROUBLE CODE (DTC) MAY BE SET.

To avoid possible voltage spike damage to PCM, ignition key must be off, and negative battery cable must be disconnected before unplugging PCM connectors.

OFF-ROAD INDICATOR
DESCRIPTION

An off road indicator is standard equipment on all instrument clusters. However, on vehicles not equipped with the Trail Rated four-wheel drive system, this indicator is electronically disabled. This indicator is located within the odometer Vacuum Fluorescent Display (VFD) unit.
The off road indicator gives an indication to the vehicle operator when the Four Wheel Drive Lock Mode of the Trail Rated Continuously Variable Transmission (CVT) is activated and the transmission gear selector is in the Low or Reverse positions. This indicator is controlled by the instrument cluster circuit board based upon cluster programming and electronic messages received by the cluster from the All Wheel Drive Control Module (AWDCM) over the Controller Area Network (CAN) data bus.
The off road indicator is completely controlled by the instrument cluster logic circuit, and that logic will only allow this indicator to operate when the instrument cluster receives a battery current input on the fused ignition switch output (run-start) circuit. Therefore, the indicator will always be OFF when the ignition switch is in any position except ON or START. The indicator only illuminates when it is energized by the instrument cluster logic circuit. The instrument cluster will turn ON the Off Road indicator for the following reasons:
Off Road Indicator Lamp-On Message - Each time the cluster receives an electronic off road indicator lamp-ON message from the AWDCM indicating the off road mode is activated, the off road indicator is illuminated. The indicator remains illuminated until the cluster receives a lamp-OFF message from the AWDCM, or until the ignition switch is turned to the OFF position, whichever occurs first.
Actuator Test - Each time the cluster is put through the actuator test, the off road indicator will be turned ON, then OFF again during the Vacuum Fluorescent Display (VFD) portion of the test in order to confirm the functionality of the VFD and the cluster control circuitry.
The AWDCM continually monitors the CVT automatic transmission gear selector and the Four Wheel Drive Lock switch request messages from the ElectroMechanical Instrument Cluster (EMIC) (also known as the Cab Compartment Node/CCN) to determine when the off road mode should be activated. The AWDCM then sends the proper lamp-ON or lamp-OFF message to the EMIC.
For proper diagnosis of the Four Wheel Drive Lock switch, the AWDCM, the EMIC, the CAN data bus or the electronic communication related to off road indicator operation a diagnostic scan tool is required. Refer to the appropriate diagnostic information.
Hill Descent

A hill descent indicator is standard equipment on all instrument clusters. However, on vehicles not equipped with the Trail Rated four-wheel drive system, this indicator is electronically disabled. This indicator is located near the lower edge of the cluster overlay, between the speedometer and the tachometer.

The hill descent indicator consists of a stencil-like cutout of an icon depicting a vehicle descending a hill in the opaque layer of the instrument cluster overlay. The dark outer layer of the overlay prevents the indicator from being clearly visible when it is not illuminated. A green Light Emitting Diode (LED) behind the cutout in the opaque layer of the overlay causes the indicator to appear in green through the translucent outer layer of the overlay when it is illuminated from behind by the LED, which is soldered onto the instrument cluster electronic circuit board.

The hill descent indicator is serviced as a unit with the instrument cluster.

The hill descent indicator automatically gives an indication to the vehicle operator when the Trail Rated Continuously Variable Transmission (CVT) is in Low or Reverse, the Four Wheel Drive Lock and Off Road modes are activated, and the grade sensing logic of the Controller Antilock Brake (CAB) senses the vehicle is descending a hill. This indicator is controlled by a transistor on the instrument cluster circuit board based upon cluster programming and electronic messages received by the cluster from the CAB over the Controller Area Network (CAN) data bus.

The hill descent indicator Light Emitting Diode (LED) is completely controlled by the instrument cluster logic circuit, and that logic will only allow this indicator to operate when the instrument cluster receives a battery current input on the fused ignition switch output (run-start) circuit. Therefore, the LED will always be OFF when the ignition switch is in any position except ON or START. The LED only illuminates when it is provided a path to ground by the instrument cluster transistor. The instrument cluster will turn ON the hill descent indicator for the following reasons:

Hill Descent Indicator Lamp-On Message - Each time the cluster receives an electronic hill descent indicator lamp-ON message from the CAB, the indicator will be illuminated solid. The indicator can be flashed ON and OFF, or illuminated solid, as dictated by the CAB message. A flashing indicator signifies that the brakes are overheated and that the hill descent feature may not be able to operate as intended. The indicator remains illuminated until the cluster receives a lamp-OFF message from the CAB, or until the ignition switch is turned to the OFF position, whichever occurs first.
Actuator Test - Each time the cluster is put through the actuator test, the hill descent indicator will be turned ON, then OFF again during the LED portion of the test to confirm the functionality of the LED and the cluster control circuitry.

The CAB continually monitors inputs from the All-Wheel Drive Control Module (AWDCM) and the ElectroMechanical Instrument Cluster (EMIC) (also known as the Cab Compartment Node/CCN) to determine the status of the Continuously Variable Transmission (CVT), the 4WD Lock switch, then monitors its own internal grade sensing logic to determine when the hill descent mode should be engaged. The CAB then sends the proper lamp-ON or lamp-OFF message to the EMIC.

For proper diagnosis of the AWDCM, the CAB, the EMIC, the CAN data bus or the electronic communication related to hill descent indicator operation a diagnostic scan tool is required. Refer to the appropriate diagnostic information.
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Unread 01-25-2008, 06:33 PM   #5
jinx63303
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Ok, That is a Gigantic amount of information. Thank You Gramps!

At the risk of admitting my mechanical ignorance, would it be possible to "Program" the normal CVT2 in Low gear to engage the electronic controlled features of the CVT2L? Such as the Hill descent and the Brake differentials. Or, are the CVT2 models simply missing the required "Parts"?

I realize the answer is probably right there in your message, but it's WAY past my knowledge level.

Thanks; Jinx
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Unread 01-25-2008, 06:55 PM   #6
Gramps
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The CVT2L uses some different sensors for the Primary and Secondary Variators, a separate Hill descent module, a different coupler for the rear axel and some other parts. I'm still trying to collect a list of all the different pieces.

It would take someone smarter that me to break and make new code to have this work but I'm sure someone could.
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Unread 01-25-2008, 07:15 PM   #7
jinx63303
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Once again, Thank You! Your knowledge of these vehicles is amazing. If you have any questions about Suzuki Burgman Scooters, I can probably help you out there!

Jinx
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Unread 01-25-2008, 07:22 PM   #8
Jeepster55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jinx63303
Ok, That is a Gigantic amount of information.

I realize the answer is probably right there in your message, but it's WAY past my knowledge level.

Thanks; Jinx
thank God YOU admitted to that. as for me, i'll just pretend to understand and move to a different subject.......
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Unread 01-25-2008, 07:25 PM   #9
Gramps
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I think that the closest I've come to death has been on 2 wheels and one of those times was on a Vespa . Any more I prefer to keep 4 wheels under me even if they're not always on the ground . But I certainly appreciate the offer.
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