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Baseline 4x4 Lifetime Warranty 4340 Chromoly Axle Shaft KiClayton Off Road WJ Long Arm Kits!Clayton Off Road - JK Prototype Gas Tank Skid

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Unread 08-05-2014, 01:13 AM   #16
Tyler-98-W68
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The rock crawling video could have been named "hookers and blow" I wasn't concerned with the name of the video, just the content of it.

I'm not purporting to say that any MK is a hardcore offroad vehicle, yes you can build any solid axle vehicle from years ago for hardly any investment in money. I'm not trying to prove the prowess of MKs offroad.

Yes i'm familiar with a locker I know how it works, I was just using the term lock as an explanation of the video, I suppose to be technically correct I could have used, stop either way I wasn't talking about lockers on the above mentioned vehicle. That video posted was a member on ***********.com I"ve been on that forum for 6 years, that video was done with the autostick in 1 and 4x4 "lock" on. So its a FDI, I can have that EXACT mode on my FDII.

Anyway its getting off topic, all my post was about was explaining that a FDI has different BLD programming than a FDII simple as that, not about lockers not about tires.

Yes the vehicle stickered for 34000$ I didn't pay even close to that. As I said before I didn't buy the Compass to be a hardcore offroad vehicle, it was an economical mode of transportation to my job (120mile round trip commute) that I could do year round while getting decent gas mileage.

Once again, until I see a FDI patriot proving what I have done above, I will maintain a FDII is different than a FDI capability wise, CVT or auto tranny.

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Unread 08-05-2014, 03:32 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 937Comanche View Post
Different times...different jeeps...different terrains...different tires.... Apples to oranges.

What is referred to as "extreme rock crawling" in the 26 seconds of video above is entertaining and was probably fun...but it is in no way extreme. I dare say that with the relatively high traction provided by that sort of rock I could traverse it in 2wd in my MJ."Slick rock" is a misnomer and it does not really amount to being that slick and especially on an obstacle of such low height. Labeling such a pedestrian accomplishes as extreme and/or promoting it as such is another indication of the bias I mentioned. Throw a couple of real inches of wet mud on those rocks or 18" of height on it rock and then maybe it would be getting in the neighborhood of extreme...but just in the neighborhood. You said yourself that your conclusions are based only your testing and that was only of one of the vehicles in the comparison as you wish a FD1 would attempt the same testing. How is that a test at all? It is like "does orange juice or pepsi test better" when all that you have at the table is orange juice.

The video in the immediately proceeding post is worthless in regards to your point. With all do respect that is in no way a comparison and drawing conclusions from it is premature at best. There is no proof of what mode the vehicle may be in at any point. It could be in AWD. And it is certainly not a 2014. The camera angles do not show both wheels on an "axle" often enough, either. Do you understand that by definition a locker makes both wheels spin at the same time, not that it juststops a spinning wheel? The closest piece to provide that action is a gleason/torson or Detroit truetrack limited slip. There is also no other Jeep in those vids with a different system to provide a comparison.... ??? Do you just "know" the other would preform differently? Way test anything then if all that matters is what you have convinced yourself of prior to beginning?

I am sorry but that video shows nothing at all difficult. I am again certain that I would not need 4wd to traverse it thanks to my actual honest to goodness rear locker. I like my MK and I say again that it is the most capable off-roader in its class. But as evidenced by anything in these vids that may not amount to much as nothing in them is very difficult....especially for a high-dollar jeep with over-sized tires and a lift along with other aftermarket goodies. A >$34,000 investment in a jeep ought to get you some serious performance and I just don't see it. That "extreme" rock crawling vid and the mud rut vid are not very challenging and repeating them as such does again raise the "bias" specter. But you did successfully ignore the Jeep marketing lies and contradictions. It seems to me that a product that can stand on its own two feet does not need such things. Maybe someday we can meet at someplace like the Badlands ORP. You can bring your lifted test jeep with over sized tires and aftermarket goodies and I can bring mine with a lift and over sized tires and a couple of aftermarket goodies but with an investment of less than 10% ( probably closer to 5%) of yours and we can see if we can hash out a definition of "extreme" that will at least give us a level playing field when discussing "extreme" performance. I will buy the adult beverages once the 'wheeling is done.
If anyone paid $34k for a Dodge caliber you ain't right in the head,and yes both the Compass and patriot are just a Dodge Caliber(as most of you should already know).


The worst thing you want offroad is that BLD system,just uses the ABS pump that fries your brakes and brake fluid.if your having the BLD kick in often you should be doing yearly brake fluid flushes.The last thing you want offroad is faded brakes and the BLD constantly using the brakes at low speed just burns them up.
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Unread 08-07-2014, 12:22 PM   #18
Tyler-98-W68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjkj2002 View Post
If anyone paid $34k for a Dodge caliber you ain't right in the head,and yes both the Compass and patriot are just a Dodge Caliber(as most of you should already know).


The worst thing you want offroad is that BLD system,just uses the ABS pump that fries your brakes and brake fluid.if your having the BLD kick in often you should be doing yearly brake fluid flushes.The last thing you want offroad is faded brakes and the BLD constantly using the brakes at low speed just burns them up.
While I agree that the BLD's are not ideal, on the FDII the do transform the vehicle from something that couldn't go very far offroad to something that can do alright for what it is.

BLD's aren't all bad though the WK and WK2's have the Quadra-Trac II system which uses BLD's and they are pretty good offroad. In fact the WK2's no longer have the front ELSD that the WK's had because the BLD does a good enough job on the front axle.

Eitherway I wasn't making MK"S out to be awesome offroad trying to point out the difference between the models that are available.
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Unread 08-07-2014, 05:04 PM   #19
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I would like to purchase a Patriot with the FDII package but hate to give up the control I have with auto stick especially in snow. Being able to select a gear gives me more control especially on hills and coming to stop. I'd rather let the tranny work in those situations then use the brakes.
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Unread 08-07-2014, 05:06 PM   #20
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With a FDII you do have some control, but you would have to put it into the FDII low range mode which basically holds first gear. Do you have a FDI right now, I don't find any issues with my FDII in the snow and ice, and I've driven them for 6 years.
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Unread 08-07-2014, 05:24 PM   #21
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Yes I do. I haven't had any problems with the FDI at all. And I'm not saying the FDII would be an issue. Just less control when you need it. I live in the NE and this last winter was rough. I had no issues with my Patriot and look forward to hopefully another rough winter
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Unread 08-07-2014, 07:05 PM   #22
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TJKJ: Someone is trying to justify overpaying for the FD2 and having to live with that CVT.... Yes, TJKJ any of us with any sense knows that these are Caliber based and in no way a truck or an off-roader. And I can't imagine paying that kind of cash for one, either. And then another grand plus trying to make it something it is not. You can buy a very nice & capable factory Jeep for less than that. A friend paid less for a 2013 JKU Rubie. I have a fairly loaded Patriot ( Autostick, FD1, factory tow hooks, dealer installed skid plates,) with the Latitude package plus some other options. That was right at $20K. And I agree that the electronic nannies are a poor substitute for the real appliances. I think you will find that those who rely on them do so to replace driving skill. Hey, I can't do it so let the computer is more and more the order of the day. Ever see a land rover when the electronics get confused? They go nowhere. To someone who has never 'wheeled a truly capable Jeep ( say... a CJ7 on one-ton axles & 38.5" tires locked front & rear) I am sure you can be impressed by an MK.

In my Patriot I have what I feel is the most capable vehicle in its class and at a reasonable cost. It gets ok mileage while being a great winter driver in an area that gets snow, ice, about everything. I don't fool myself about the current or future off-road capabilities of this Jeep and that is from a guy who fought to get his KJ recognized as a reputable 'wheeler many times. But of course I don't have almost $40K in mine, either...
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Unread 08-07-2014, 07:30 PM   #23
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I don't think I've been trying to justify my purchase as being stuck with the CVT. I quite enjoy it. If I was not happy with the performance of the CVT, why would I have bought a 2nd FDII MK. As I've said I've owned them for 6 years.

You don't need to convince me its not a hardcore offroad vehicle. But not many people have tried to see how far these vehicles will go offroad. I guess you are trying to tell me that my hobby of taking this particular vehicle offroad isn't a good idea.

If you took a 93 Comanche for instance and it was 100% bone stock, you'd be surprised at how a FDI or even FDII MK would compare. I know its not fair to compare vehicles 20 years apart but capability wise on an otherwise stock vehicle in it's segment MK's do well.

I'm not going to say there isn't cheaper more capable vehicles out there. As a matter of fact a good friend of mine wheels his 100% Bone stock 2014 JK 6 speed with zero options, the factory 16" steel wheels. I have no problems saying that vehicle (which is below 20K new) can outwheel my heavily modified Compass, and that doesn't bother me, its not a big deal.

I got my compass with every single option on it, so yes it drove the price up a bit, and I didn't pay anywhere close to 40k, try more like 26k, but price isn't important.


The whole point of my thread was to not talk about the performance or lack thereof of MY vehicle offroad. It was to explain the 4x4 system on the MK's.

Since you have a FDI, I want to see videos of YOUR Patriot going offroad since you say its the most capable in its segment, but it isn't, a FDII is and I have shown you proof over and over again while all you do is tell me a FDI is no different.

Also, I say this all with a smile on my face, my feelings aren't hurt, and i'm not trying to hurt yours either.
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Unread 08-07-2014, 09:48 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jch24vball View Post
I would like to purchase a Patriot with the FDII package but hate to give up the control I have with auto stick especially in snow. Being able to select a gear gives me more control especially on hills and coming to stop. I'd rather let the tranny work in those situations then use the brakes.
1 guy's allegations and opinions aside the FD2 gives you nothing over '14-up Autostick FD1 except a higher price tag and a quirky tranny that is the point of numerous failures and complaints if you visit other boards. Last time that I checked the largest Pat forum a full 90% of the first two pages of the tech section were CVT complaints.
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Unread 08-07-2014, 09:58 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Tyler-98-W68 View Post
I don't think I've been trying to justify my purchase as being stuck with the CVT. I quite enjoy it. If I was not happy with the performance of the CVT, why would I have bought a 2nd FDII MK. As I've said I've owned them for 6 years.

You don't need to convince me its not a hardcore offroad vehicle. But not many people have tried to see how far these vehicles will go offroad. I guess you are trying to tell me that my hobby of taking this particular vehicle offroad isn't a good idea.

If you took a 93 Comanche for instance and it was 100% bone stock, you'd be surprised at how a FDI or even FDII MK would compare. I know its not fair to compare vehicles 20 years apart but capability wise on an otherwise stock vehicle in it's segment MK's do well.

I'm not going to say there isn't cheaper more capable vehicles out there. As a matter of fact a good friend of mine wheels his 100% Bone stock 2014 JK 6 speed with zero options, the factory 16" steel wheels. I have no problems saying that vehicle (which is below 20K new) can outwheel my heavily modified Compass, and that doesn't bother me, its not a big deal.

I got my compass with every single option on it, so yes it drove the price up a bit, and I didn't pay anywhere close to 40k, try more like 26k, but price isn't important.


The whole point of my thread was to not talk about the performance or lack thereof of MY vehicle offroad. It was to explain the 4x4 system on the MK's.

Since you have a FDI, I want to see videos of YOUR Patriot going offroad since you say its the most capable in its segment, but it isn't, a FDII is and I have shown you proof over and over again while all you do is tell me a FDI is no different.

Also, I say this all with a smile on my face, my feelings aren't hurt, and i'm not trying to hurt yours either.
#1 There was no '93 Comanche. FD2 fans is what you get from non-jeep people.

#2 I do not think it would compare well at all based on your videos. You lack videos of the stock non-existent model you chose to compare the vehicle to.

#3 your proof is proof in your mind only. As someone whose experience at 'wheeling appears to be severely limited and the fact that you obviously are defending a tranny that is universally panned makes your opinion appear way too bias to trust.

#4 the huge investment you have in a , lets face it, mediocre platform that is criticized heavily in reviews and in the real world when you admit it is far from a the 'wheeler that you claim it to be in the next breath again makes your opinion & "conclusions" too biased to support.

#5 the only evidence as to cost that you presented is your window sticker.

#6 my feelings will never be hurt on the internet but thanks for caring.
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Unread 08-07-2014, 10:57 PM   #26
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1. My apologies for being ignorant and not knowing there wasn't a 93 Comanche

2. So you are saying because i'm lifted 2.125" and have slightly larger than stock tires it isn't a fair comparison to make to a stock FDII because it made such a huge difference? The drivetrain still functions exactly the same.

3. People might not like the CVT, everyone is entitled to their opinion, not much else to say on that

4. "huge" can mean different things to different people, my vehicle is not a huge investment in my life, I have other hobbies with far more money into them.

5. Yes I posted the window sticker, which is just that suggested retail price, anyone that pays sticker price on their vehicle didn't do their homework. Also vehicle in Canada cost far more than the exact same vehicle south of the border.

6. I'm glad we can agree on one thing

Putting all the other points to rest, I only want to continue discussing this:

the FD2 gives you nothing over '14-up Autostick FD1 except a higher price tag and a quirky tranny that is the point of numerous failures and complaints if you visit other boards. Last time that I checked the largest Pat forum a full 90% of the first two pages of the tech section were CVT complaints

People on message boards like to complain, there are lots of complaints about CVT's Jeep's CVT's Nissan's CVT's lots of companies CVT's get hounded for the same thing sluggish performance, I won't disagree with you there.

I just checked the first 2 pages of the transmission section of a forum
17.5% or 7 out of 40 threads asking about the CVT and/or issues
I don't think i'm allowed to post screenshots of that forum, so I won't, anyways...

I really really want proof, capability wise that a 2014+ 6 Speed Auto FDI Patriot OR Compass is as capable offroad as any 2007-2014FDII MK with the CVT in it.

You do happen to be in luck though because I have a friend with a 2010 Patriot FDI, and he has the exact same mods as myself (Lift and tires) and we are going to go wheeling soon, with videos to show the differences between our 2 vehicles. I"M patiently waiting to see a 6 speed auto FDI offroading to prove other than bench racing that it is the same as a FDII
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Unread 08-08-2014, 10:33 AM   #27
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Of course your "friend" does not have the 6-speed autostick transmission, does he? I quick review will show that my original contention and the one I keep harking back to states that combo in particular. Yes?

You have been asked to provide some proof of your BLD's allegation regarding the two systems but despite repeated requests you have not provided one thing other than your own video's. For various reasons those are not very convincing. You contended that because the FD1's do not list a BLD on the sticker it most be inferior...with no proof at all. A crazy leap in logic that shows your bias once more. In fact the call-out of the BLDs on the FD2 sticker goes further to support that they are there as an ad gimmick to get someone to pay more...someone who wants a nearly $40 MK, for example. Jeep doesn't want someone knowing they can pay thousands less (and get away from the CVT) and get the same thing, right? Even you admit BLDs are on both systems but make some totally crazy claim based on the advertising people at Jeep not putting them on the FD1 sticker. Again...asking you for an unbiased opinion on the FD2 and the universally panned CVT would obviously result in as biased a response as asking a Hamas fighter about Israel. It seems that such a major difference as to the performance of the BLDs in the systems would be both documented numerous places and advertised heavily... yet you have nothing but that advertising window sticker and can't produce anything else regarding your allegation. Jeep's website describes the BLD functions in exactly the same terms! Watch the videos again if you need to.

You cannot post screenshots but the count at the website that I visited shows the majority of the posts being complaints about the CVT/FD2 *and drive-ability complaints* related to the CVT when not actually about CVT failures. Reviewers, buyers, everyone is involved in a vast conspiracy to discredit the wonder tranny that is the CVT,huh?? Wow. And as you darn well know the jeep & nissan CVT are one in the same. That the tranny is junk no matter what the target audience or the brand it is in is pretty obvious. EVERYONE complains about them but the fanboi's who will not admit there is a flaw in the thing. Sir, THAT PARROT IS NO MORE! You remember that thing about the being so biased as to be without credibility...?

The BLD claim is without merit, as well. As was the "low range" lie regarding both a super low ratio and the implication that is is something other than a way to hold the tranny in the lowest gear....big effing deal. The autostick does it as does a manual if you....try to follow along here...just leave them in FIRST GEAR! Will technological wonders never cease? That the CVT had no way to do this without a no doubt expensive process does not make it superior it just makes it finally even to most every tranny made in the last 100 years. But if you want to see such an add-on just to get it equal as a plus..feel free.

That you have expendable income is probable. Who else would try to fit this square peg into a round hole instead of just getting a round peg that is far superior? But that you are willing to throw away loonies in no way makes you right about anything. You may in fact be right about the BLDs but you lack any proof and cannot produce it. So the only conclusion left is that your bias renders your opinion moot. Tootles.
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Unread 08-08-2014, 10:47 AM   #28
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If these mystical BLD's are just a gimmick please explain this video


Why do they not work enough to get me over the obstacle, but then magically do when I use the FDII mode, please help me understand, I don't think there is any trick photography here.
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Unread 08-08-2014, 11:05 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Tyler-98-W68 View Post




If these mystical BLD's are just a gimmick please explain this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEusI...Q7dU6XwAcvyOSw

Why do they not work enough to get me over the obstacle, but then magically do when I use the FDII mode, please help me understand, I don't think there is any trick photography here.

Yawn. It is most likely because your junk transmission will not hold the ratio you need unless you engage the gimmick that other transmission possess in a much more simple and efficient form. An Autostick would be able to retain that gear. I guess you have no concept of how gear ratios effect such things. Until you engage the gimmick to make the CVT act like any other tranny it would not allow the necessary ratio. See? That is a practical, reasonable conclusion. It is based on experience with gear ratios and knowledge about the practical application of them in four wheeling. You do not need to jump to the "space aliens abducted Elvis" range of explanation that you go to with "well....the system must be different. Derp." And to be frank someone as bias as you cannot be trusted as to what system you have engaged when anyway. You could be in AWD at anytime you claim you are not. Who knows? No one knows without proof. THAT is the level of believability that your continued bias claims have.

Again: where is the advertising and technical proof? Not your videos, that is for sure. Something from Jeep please. Heck for that big of a change you should be able to cite numerous irrefutable sources. Funny that you can't or won't.I will respond when and if you ever have some actual proof and not your wishful thinking.
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Unread 08-08-2014, 11:19 AM   #30
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I don't think gear ratios have anything to do with it, I would think explaining how differentials work might explain the issue, Since all MK"s have open diffs.

The wheels with the least resistance spin, so the ones in the air spin, unless something makes them stop (or cause friction) which in the case of MK's (and other jeep systems) would be the brakes. Which then causes the wheels which have traction (the ones on the ground) to receive power.

http://blog.chryslerllc.com/blog.do?p=entry&id=270

Good post on how BLD's work. All MK's have them

http://www.autofieldguide.com/articles/cvts-go-off-road

A post talking about the "gimmicky" CVT

You have a FDI Patriot, why not go out and make videos to prove me wrong, unless of course you don't own one. I'd LOVE to be proven wrong because I haven't found anyone who has offroaded a 2014 MK. You won't find anything on Jeep's website other than the 2 videos posted earlier in this thread about how the 4x4 system works.

You keep talking about this 6 speed auto being so great, and you own one, go prove me wrong that it is so much more different and capable off-road why haven't I seen any pictures of your 2014 FDI Patriot. Use some ramps, put them on one front wheel and one back wheel horizontally opposed and get some wheels up in the air and see how it reacts.
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