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Unread 07-02-2014, 01:34 PM   #1
christiang26
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4wd system

I am looking to buy a 2014 compass 4x4 with manual transmission but I would like to know how the 4x4 system works on the nonFDII models. this system would lock front and rear axel or just works like a simple awd vehicle?
I currently have a wk with qtII and it lets me lock the front and rear axels in low range, does this system work similar or it just locks with wheel slippage and don't have a lever to lock?

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Unread 07-02-2014, 08:41 PM   #2
tjkj2002
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No low range for the manuals if I remember right,just a basic FWD system with RWD assist.
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Unread 07-02-2014, 09:56 PM   #3
christiang26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjkj2002
No low range for the manuals if I remember right,just a basic FWD system with RWD assist.
So the only way to get low range is with FDII?
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Unread 07-02-2014, 10:45 PM   #4
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEUDlc6diO4


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwTvNzmywFk
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Unread 07-03-2014, 12:06 AM   #5
tjkj2002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by christiang26 View Post
So the only way to get low range is with FDII?
Yep and not much of a low range then.
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Unread 07-03-2014, 02:24 PM   #6
christiang26
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So just to have everything clear.
The only two 4x4 systems available on the patriot or compass are FDI and FDII, but on the manual transmission only the FDI is available. I am correct?
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Unread 07-03-2014, 05:09 PM   #7
tjkj2002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by christiang26 View Post
So just to have everything clear.
The only two 4x4 systems available on the patriot or compass are FDI and FDII, but on the manual transmission only the FDI is available. I am correct?
Yep
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Unread 07-11-2014, 12:07 PM   #8
Katmandu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by christiang26 View Post
So just to have everything clear.
The only two 4x4 systems available on the patriot or compass are FDI and FDII, but on the manual transmission only the FDI is available. I am correct?
Yes, and there is no physical Transfer case to give you the extra Low gear range.
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Unread 08-03-2014, 08:07 AM   #9
937Comanche
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There is no low range in the FD2. There is a computer program that changes the CVT's behavior. The "crawl ratio" with the FD2 and its supposed low range is 19:1. A FD1's new six speed has a ratio of 17:1 & that is within spitting distance of the FD2. To be frank neither ratio is very impressive in the grand scheme of things but the closeness of the two ratios shows that the "low range" claim is more marketing hype than reality. To put either ratio into perspective my 2005 KJ with a 6 speed stick has a stock crawl ratio of 46:1.

The FD1 has two modes: AWD and Lock. When in lock it acts like a conventional transfer case in that power is split equally front to rear and the bias does not change. That is an option not available on many AWD vehicles in this class.

Both FD1 & FD2 provide brake lock differentials front AND rear. The system must be in the "lock" position and does not work in AWD. Some have claimed only the FD2 has the system front and rear but that is incorrect. Like the WK the "lockers" on the MK are not lockers. Lockers are a mechanical apparatus to physically force both axle shafts of a differential to stop differentiating and to turn at the same speed. The BLD's are electronic controls to limit spinning of each tire separately. While they do a fine job of increasing traction they fall far short of actual lockers.

With the 6-speed and the ability to manually retain the transmission in low gear to achieve that 17:1 ratio the FD1 is essentially equal to FD2 as its off-road mode primarily keeps the CVT at its lowest setting... just like manually controlling the 6-speed. The lines between the two systems have really blurred for 2014 and you don't have the CVT issues/inherent quirks to deal with. The other gimmicks like "Hill Decent Control" are electronic nannies to aid in doing what anyone with a touch of driving skill and experience can do anyway. Does anyone think that far more capable jeeps required this feature to go off-road? There was no hill decent control or other electronic marketing gimmicks on a TJ Rubicon but do you really think that prevented the Rubicon from performing off-road?

With either system the MK is arguably the most capable off-road vehicle in its class. I enjoy mine.

From above:
FD1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwTvNzmywFk
FD2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEUDlc6diO4

Last edited by 937Comanche; 08-03-2014 at 08:26 AM..
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Unread 08-04-2014, 03:34 AM   #10
Tyler-98-W68
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A while back I played around with how the 4x4 system works. Bottom line a FDI and FDII function exactly the same way, except the gear ratios, and when the FDII is in the FDII specific low range, [L] 4x4 Locked.
Gear ratios aside, the aggressive BLDS are what makes the FDII able to go offroad in places a FDI can't, since there is limited articulation wheels come up in the air lots, and that's where the BLD;s come in. The older videos are of my FDII 08 Patriot, I now have a FDII 2012 Compass

Video showings FDI mode (all FDII's work like FDI when in [D] 4x4 locked.)


What I decided to do was jack up the front of the vehicle so the front tires were just barely off the ground. I would then try the 3 different modes of the Patriots 4x4 system and see how it behaved. Now of course this isn't totally realistic but it gives a better understanding how everything works.

First video is with ESP Full Off Gear selector in [D] with 4x4 Unlocked
I put the Pat in drive and then slowly let of the brake waited a few seconds and slowly eased onto the accelerator

0:18-0:24 seconds is just idling

0:24s+ start applying throttle


As you can see the drivers front wheel does not spin (it is off the ground) and the passenger front wheel starts spinning fast and then slows down, which I belive is due to the ecc sending torque to the rear wheels, you'll notice once the front wheel stops spinning the Patriot lurches forward (indicating torque going to the rear wheels although it is hard to see in the video, I could feel it while in the Pat). The front wheel continues to spin at timed intervals (When my foot was off the gas). Indiciating the ECC was locking and unlocking. As I increase pressure on the gas pedal the front wheel slows and it seems the ecc is progressing to what seems almost full lockup before I let off the gas. My guess as to why the passenger wheel isn't spinning is because there isn't enough difference in the wheel speeds to make the BLD kick in. Had i given it more gas the Patriot would have driven forward off the jack.

Second video is with ESP Full Off Gear selector in [D] with 4x4 Locked.
I put the Pat in drive and then slowly let of the brake waited a few seconds and slowly eased onto the accelerator

0:16-0:21 idling
0:21+ start applying throttle


Whats interesting right off the bat is the behavior while in the locked mode when idling, it behaves exactly the same way as when the 4x4 was unlocked, lurching forward at intervals, once I touch the gas pedal everything locks up and unlike the AWD mode there is no progression with the ECC it's locked up until i release the gas pedal. In this mode if I would have used more gas I would have been able to drive off the jack.

Third video is with ESP Full Off Gear selector in [L] with 4x4 Locked. This is the FDII mode

I put the Pat in drive and then slowly let of the brake waited a few seconds and slowly eased onto the accelerator

0:16-0:21 idling, foot off the gas
0:21+ start applying throttle


In the FDII mode everything is the same as the 2nd video, rpms are higher and the Patriot seemed to be more eager to jump off the jacks (increased torque i'm guessing) The sound you hear at the end the the Pat shifting on the blocks (nothing broke)

I think that in all cases when the patriot operates in the AWD mode when there is no throttle is probably to prevent binding in the drivetrain at low speeds, i'm really intrigued how it works because the second there is any throttle input everything locks up (depending on the mode you are in)

In all cases above the patriot was able to transmit enough torque to move the vehicle forward, now whether or not it would be enough to drive over a small bump i'm not sure. Another thing to recognize is that the front wheels had ZERO traction, if your front wheels are on ice there is going to be at least some resistance so this isn't a 100% realistic test.


As the video states 1st part shows the AWD mode (FDI)

2nd part is the 4x4 lock in D also FDI

3rd Part is the FDII 4x4 locked in Low range.

You can also see the Patriot struggling to spin the wheels at times, not enough torque from the little 4 banger (and my heavy tires don't help either)

Here is a quote from part of the explanation of the 4WD system from jeep:

Quote:
OPERATION

The all-wheel-drive system requires no driver input or control. Under most driving conditions, it is passive and power is transmitted to the front wheels alone. Unlike all-wheel drive systems that rely on pumps or viscous fluids to transfer torque, this system requires no front-to-rear slippage for activation. This allows the system to transfer torque solely in response to accelerator pedal position. If the driver is asking for a lot of power, the system immediately starts clamping the electronically controlled coupling (ECC), transferring a high percentage of power to the rear wheels. This avoids front wheel slippage, as power to propel the car is transmitted through all four tires. This mode of operation is called open-loop operation in that there is no feedback to affect the torque transfer.

A second, closed loop, operating mode uses feedback from the wheel-speed sensors to determine the appropriate torque transfer. When the front wheels slip, the All Wheel Drive (AWD) Control Module tells the ECC to start clamping, sending power to the rear wheels. Attempting the same aggressive launch described above with the front wheels on ice and the rear wheels on dry pavement, the ECC sends even more torque to the rear wheels to minimize slippage and launch the vehicle. Both modes are always active with the closed loop mode layered on top of open loop mode to increase torque to the rear wheels when needed to maintain traction in extreme cases.
The AWD mode acts exactly as Jeep States and it appears the ECC is able to vary the amount of tourque going to the rear wheels. When the patriot is idling it appears to be in the "closed loop mode". Once you start giving it some gas then the open loop system also comes in and starts working. It also in my opinion shows that the isn't a whole lot of difference between the 4x4 locked (in D) and unlocked (in D) as the ECC nearly locks up in the AWD mode if you give it enough throttle.

I hope to make more videos in different situations in the near future, I was by myself today so I had to really be careful what I was doing.

If anyone has requests as to what sort of things i should try I would be more than happy to test them out.

Last video has a stupid watermark because my neighbor came over and asked what the hell i was doing so I cut that out


Feel free to look over my other videos I've offroaded my compass extensively and tested out the 4x4 system in almost everyway imaginable.
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Unread 08-04-2014, 05:17 PM   #11
937Comanche
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The FD2 does not actually increase engine's torque. It prevents the CVT from changing the size of the pulleys from their lowest setting. This is exactly like leaving a manual tranny in its lowest gear or leaving the autostick 6-speed in 1st. I do not know the ratio for the manual but again the automatic FD1 & FD2 rigs have very similar ratios in their lowest setting. It would not surprise me if the programming for the "lock" also changes the throttle tip-in. This is how much the fly by wire throttle actually responds to the movement of the pedal. To make a vehicle feel peppier the program changes the response at "tip in" or when you first apply the gas. This makes the vehicle appear to "leap" with power yet in is actually the opposite of the response you would want off-road.

You did a lot of work there. That is pretty cool that you took the time to do the. One thing I would point out is that, as you mentioned in the "closed loop" section, the sensors react to the pressure or resistance on the wheels. Having all four wheels in the air will not show how the vehicle functions when one, two, three, or four wheels are in a bind as when wheeling.

Many guys wheel very hard in rigs with bigger tires and similar weights to the MK. Look at the earlier Toy 4runners, for example. They had 100 horsepower and 85#'s of torque. That is much much less then the 2.4 that everyone sells short. The problem is that unlike the Toy which is very easy to modify you cannot change the MK around enough to optimize the power it makes. The little 4 banger does mot lack torque. Jeep just does not make good use of it with the MK's specifications.

I think that this shows that starting in 2014 the lines between the FD1 & FD2 are practically non-existent for those who chose the 6-speed. I have never seen any proof of the "more aggressive" BLD's other then the word of the same people who told me they did not have them on the fronts of the FD1's at all. "I guess" answers are not really definitive and the BLD's videos leave too many variables open. If you have some documentation of the change in the bias limits between the two could you post it or provide a link? It is possible that the program could hold the brakes longer before allowing them to be overcome and it really would not be that difficult to do for the OEM... but the hard proof that ChryCo did this seems to be missing.

The only question that remains is how much is the buyer willing to pay and put up with for that $10 fender badge?
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Unread 08-05-2014, 12:01 AM   #12
Tyler-98-W68
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In regards to your first paragraph.


What I found is that even though the CVT will eventually upshift to keep the rpm manageable while in the FDII Low Range mode it will not upshift so it is holds the 19:1 Crawl ratio as long as possible, I cant remember for sure the exact rpms but I went up to about 30 kms/h and I think the rpms were 3500ish or so.


In this video I just put awd mode [D] 4x4 Unlocked. As you can see the jeep is very eager to upshift and keep the rpms low.

In regards to how the FDII mode works, quoting from this article:

http://www.autofieldguide.com/articles/cvts-go-off-road

When the low-range mode is selected via a switch, a controller determines whether the vehicle is traveling at an acceptable rate of speed (the system can only be activated at speeds below 25 mph) and then engages a coupling mechanism, via specially developed software programming, to engage the secondary drive wheel while the CVT moves into a higher final drive ratio of up to 19:1, which is more than enough to traverse just about any dusty trail or rough terrain. Loddane dismisses any concerns over potential durability issues of operating a CVT at such output levels, adding that most of the attention during development was focused on perfecting the calibration and feel of the system. “We had to do a lot of work to make sure the low-range mode would operate like a traditional system from a customer standpoint, so that it would sound and feel familiar,” he says. The CVT2L system will be offered on the Patriot as part of the Freedom Drive II package, which itself is geared for durable off-road use, with 1-in. higher ground clearance, additional body sealing and high-mounted drivetrain vents designed to support 19-in. water fording capability.

I can attest than engine programming is different, and power different is well, there is a part in the owners manual stating when using the FDII mode low range, premium fuel can be used and the timing is advanced to give the engine more power, I have confirmed this via my scanguage II and can watch the timing advanced as soon as I enter that mode.

In terms of having wheels on the ground and testing the 4x4 system out, I have that covered too although it shows more of how the BLD's work.


As you can see, when not using the FDII mode, there is lots of wheel spin and the BLDS while activating they are not as aggressive as when using the FDII mode. As I said before, a FDII functions (BLD wise) exactly the same as a FDI when working outside the FDII specific low range ( [L] 4x4 locked) Meaning any of the modes ( [D] 4x4 locked and unlocked ) it won't have as aggressive of BLD.


This is an old video but as you can see when I take it out of the FDII mode I get tons of wheel spin, then when the spinning stop, that is the aggressive BLD's kicking in trying to route power to the other side of the axle (lack of engine torque is what is preventing me from making it to the top)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPts...Q7dU6XwAcvyOSw

Once again aggressive BLD modes are found only in the FDII low range mode.


here you can see the BLD's don't activate at all in the FDI mode, I was giving it a bot of gas but not a lot (didn't want to come off the stands)


Right away when in the FDII mode the smallest bit of wheel speed difference and the BLD's kick in.

In terms of literature talking about the BLD capability

Here is the window sticker that I scanned in of my 2012 Compass FDII, you can see where I highlighted where it says "Brake Lock differential" listed under the FDII off-road package.



Here is a window sticker form online of a 2014 FDI Compass, without the FDII package



As you can see Brake Lock Differential is not listed anywhere on the options or standard features list. That doesn't mean it doesn't have it, but there is a difference in how the BLD's activate between the 2 models, and enough to warrant one being advertised as a feature (FDII) and it not being included on the other (FDI).

I can assure you there is a large difference in BLD"s between the 2 models, FDII and FDI,

Another old video showing how the BLD"s on a FDII work is:


I can assure you a FDI would not be able to go over an obstacle like that in a loss of traction of 1 wheel on each axle as the above video shows.

The bottom line is that the difference in BLD's between the 2 models, is that a FDI will allow far more wheel speed difference across the same axle as opposed to a FDII which allows for very little before kicking in. Yes this is not explicitly stated anywhere in black and white but in real world testing that I've done over the past 6 years and 2 models of FDII MK's its been shown to be true.

I'm not down playing the abilities of FDI MK's, that fact of the matter is though there are tangible benefits to having the FDII in certain offroad situations. Do most people subject their MK's to the abuse I do to mine offroad, no they don't and that's not a problem, I never bought this vehicle to make it a hardcore off road machine, it was just a little project I decided to take on.

PS i'm currently in the process of having a locking diff made up for my compass as well
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Unread 08-05-2014, 01:00 AM   #13
937Comanche
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyler-98-W68 View Post
In regards to your first paragraph.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWMjz...Q7dU6XwAcvyOSw

What I found is that even though the CVT will eventually upshift to keep the rpm manageable while in the FDII Low Range mode it will not upshift so it is holds the 19:1 Crawl ratio as long as possible, I cant remember for sure the exact rpms but I went up to about 30 kms/h and I think the rpms were 3500ish or so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jGlb...Q7dU6XwAcvyOSw

In this video I just put awd mode [D] 4x4 Unlocked. As you can see the jeep is very eager to upshift and keep the rpms low.

In regards to how the FDII mode works, quoting from this article:

http://www.autofieldguide.com/articles/cvts-go-off-road

When the low-range mode is selected via a switch, a controller determines whether the vehicle is traveling at an acceptable rate of speed (the system can only be activated at speeds below 25 mph) and then engages a coupling mechanism, via specially developed software programming, to engage the secondary drive wheel while the CVT moves into a higher final drive ratio of up to 19:1, which is more than enough to traverse just about any dusty trail or rough terrain. Loddane dismisses any concerns over potential durability issues of operating a CVT at such output levels, adding that most of the attention during development was focused on perfecting the calibration and feel of the system. “We had to do a lot of work to make sure the low-range mode would operate like a traditional system from a customer standpoint, so that it would sound and feel familiar,” he says. The CVT2L system will be offered on the Patriot as part of the Freedom Drive II package, which itself is geared for durable off-road use, with 1-in. higher ground clearance, additional body sealing and high-mounted drivetrain vents designed to support 19-in. water fording capability.

I can attest than engine programming is different, and power different is well, there is a part in the owners manual stating when using the FDII mode low range, premium fuel can be used and the timing is advanced to give the engine more power, I have confirmed this via my scanguage II and can watch the timing advanced as soon as I enter that mode.

In terms of having wheels on the ground and testing the 4x4 system out, I have that covered too although it shows more of how the BLD's work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joBtQ...Q7dU6XwAcvyOSw

As you can see, when not using the FDII mode, there is lots of wheel spin and the BLDS while activating they are not as aggressive as when using the FDII mode. As I said before, a FDII functions (BLD wise) exactly the same as a FDI when working outside the FDII specific low range ( [L] 4x4 locked) Meaning any of the modes ( [D] 4x4 locked and unlocked ) it won't have as aggressive of BLD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgn9L...Q7dU6XwAcvyOSw

This is an old video but as you can see when I take it out of the FDII mode I get tons of wheel spin, then when the spinning stop, that is the aggressive BLD's kicking in trying to route power to the other side of the axle (lack of engine torque is what is preventing me from making it to the top)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPts...Q7dU6XwAcvyOSw

Once again aggressive BLD modes are found only in the FDII low range mode.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzqgN...Q7dU6XwAcvyOSw

here you can see the BLD's don't activate at all in the FDI mode, I was giving it a bot of gas but not a lot (didn't want to come off the stands)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLw74...Q7dU6XwAcvyOSw

Right away when in the FDII mode the smallest bit of wheel speed difference and the BLD's kick in.

In terms of literature talking about the BLD capability

Here is the window sticker that I scanned in of my 2012 Compass FDII, you can see where I highlighted where it says "Brake Lock differential" listed under the FDII off-road package.



Here is a window sticker form online of a 2014 FDI Compass, without the FDII package



As you can see Brake Lock Differential is not listed anywhere on the options or standard features list. That doesn't mean it doesn't have it, but there is a difference in how the BLD's activate between the 2 models, and enough to warrant one being advertised as a feature (FDII) and it not being included on the other (FDI).

I can assure you there is a large difference in BLD"s between the 2 models, FDII and FDI,

Another old video showing how the BLD"s on a FDII work is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRMXt9QCiyw

I can assure you a FDI would not be able to go over an obstacle like that in a loss of traction of 1 wheel on each axle as the above video shows.

The bottom line is that the difference in BLD's between the 2 models, is that a FDI will allow far more wheel speed difference across the same axle as opposed to a FDII which allows for very little before kicking in. Yes this is not explicitly stated anywhere in black and white but in real world testing that I've done over the past 6 years and 2 models of FDII MK's its been shown to be true.

I'm not down playing the abilities of FDI MK's, that fact of the matter is though there are tangible benefits to having the FDII in certain offroad situations. Do most people subject their MK's to the abuse I do to mine offroad, no they don't and that's not a problem, I never bought this vehicle to make it a hardcore off road machine, it was just a little project I decided to take on.

PS i'm currently in the process of having a locking diff made up for my compass as well
I must disagree. The fact that the BLD's do exist on the FD1 but are not mentioned is a pretty solid indication that the FD2 is more of a marketing scheme not a difference in performance. That is a far more plausable explanation then "well, sure both systems have BLD's but one works better so they only mention it not the other." Do they leave the 2.0 engine off of the base MK's window stickers because it does not function as well as the 2.4 so they just do not mention it? BLD's DO exist in both versions but Jeeps hides it to make the FD2 APPEAR more robust. Unless your contention is that there is not a BLD function in the 2014 FD1 because it is not called out on the window sticker? What the "lock" provides as "low range" on the FD2 is an anemic 19:1. I say again: You can put the 2014 auto FD1 in 1st gear to prevent it from up-shifting and it maintains a 17:1 ratio by keeping the lowest possible gearing. Again this may not be an impressive number but it is no great difference from the FD2. The autostick functions just as the CVT does in its wildly misleading "low range." The lock mode is necessary only because the CVT lacks conventional gears to be selected and held as it is with the autostick. That jeep again implies that the process required to hold a lower "gear" that already exists is some magic & mystical "low range" shows that marketing puffery is the order of the day with the FD2. Once again review the Freedom Drive 1 video that is provided by Jeep via jeep's official website and posted above. It clearly spells out the BLD's and, if you then watch the corresponding FD2 video, it explains their functions in the same terms. I am sorry but in the face of such evidence to imply that jeep's not * advertising* BLD's on the FD1 on a window sticker only makes sense as an effort to upsell a more expensive package as the system is in fact present on the FD1. To conclude that the lack of that verbiage on the window sticker points to a system difference in favor of the FD2 in spite of all of the evidence to the contrary probably indicates a pretty strong bias on your part and I must consider that when weighing your conclusions.

With all due respect I can appreciate the work that you put into the testing and still not reach the same conclusions that you do. I am certain that you believe them whole-heartedly and you may well be correct. But a few centuries ago people whose studies convinced them that the world was flat went so far as to execute those who did not agree. Nothing spells my contention out so clearly as the advertising gimmickry regarding the BLD's being listed as an advertising point for the FD2 and the BLD's being covered up in the less expensive FD1. Your posts reveals this trickery. Without further proof in the form of hard data that is reached through the standards for scientific testing or unimpeachable factory literature then such anecdotal stories, although possibly correct, are not reliable enough to be the only remaining conclusion in my mind. Hey they lied to us about the BLD's....

We will not convince each other. That much is obvious. So I leave you with best wishes for enjoying your Jeep.

Last edited by 937Comanche; 08-05-2014 at 01:19 AM..
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Unread 08-05-2014, 01:20 AM   #14
Tyler-98-W68
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Well if someone would like to chime in with a FDI and do the real world testing as I have, to show that they have a BLD system that activates the same way as a FDII, then I guess I would rest my case.

I care less about the crawl ratio when comparing the FDI and FDII, I could open up a whole new can of worms regarding that.

My purpose was to show that there is tangible differences between the BLD's on FDI and FDII patriots

The only video I could find of a FDI in conditions that show the BLD activation is this


As you can see (2:30 onwards is the best) there is a lot more wheel spin from the tires in the air before the BLD kicks in, and when it does kick in, it isn't as effective because the braking force isn't as great to transfer enough meaningful torque across the axle. You'll notice a few times the wheel in the air locks completely (this is a good thing) as its trying to send as much power to the other wheel as it can, however it doesn't do it as often as FDII models do and, without enough torque (and probably a function of the cvt it bogs down) FDII also bog down when the BLD's activate in certain point offroad as well.
I guess we can agree to disagree, but until someone has a 2014 Powertech 6Speed auto offroad with some videos, I'll probably be a bit stubborn
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Unread 08-05-2014, 02:06 AM   #15
937Comanche
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1991 MJ Comanche 
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 101
Different times...different jeeps...different terrains...different tires.... Apples to oranges.

What is referred to as "extreme rock crawling" in the 26 seconds of video above is entertaining and was probably fun...but it is in no way extreme. I dare say that with the relatively high traction provided by that sort of rock I could traverse it in 2wd in my MJ."Slick rock" is a misnomer and it does not really amount to being that slick and especially on an obstacle of such low height. Labeling such a pedestrian accomplishes as extreme and/or promoting it as such is another indication of the bias I mentioned. Throw a couple of real inches of wet mud on those rocks or 18" of height on it rock and then maybe it would be getting in the neighborhood of extreme...but just in the neighborhood. You said yourself that your conclusions are based only your testing and that was only of one of the vehicles in the comparison as you wish a FD1 would attempt the same testing. How is that a test at all? It is like "does orange juice or pepsi test better" when all that you have at the table is orange juice.

The video in the immediately proceeding post is worthless in regards to your point. With all do respect that is in no way a comparison and drawing conclusions from it is premature at best. There is no proof of what mode the vehicle may be in at any point. It could be in AWD. And it is certainly not a 2014. The camera angles do not show both wheels on an "axle" often enough, either. Do you understand that by definition a locker makes both wheels spin at the same time, not that it juststops a spinning wheel? The closest piece to provide that action is a gleason/torson or Detroit truetrack limited slip. There is also no other Jeep in those vids with a different system to provide a comparison.... ??? Do you just "know" the other would preform differently? Way test anything then if all that matters is what you have convinced yourself of prior to beginning?

I am sorry but that video shows nothing at all difficult. I am again certain that I would not need 4wd to traverse it thanks to my actual honest to goodness rear locker. I like my MK and I say again that it is the most capable off-roader in its class. But as evidenced by anything in these vids that may not amount to much as nothing in them is very difficult....especially for a high-dollar jeep with over-sized tires and a lift along with other aftermarket goodies. A >$34,000 investment in a jeep ought to get you some serious performance and I just don't see it. That "extreme" rock crawling vid and the mud rut vid are not very challenging and repeating them as such does again raise the "bias" specter. But you did successfully ignore the Jeep marketing lies and contradictions. It seems to me that a product that can stand on its own two feet does not need such things. Maybe someday we can meet at someplace like the Badlands ORP. You can bring your lifted test jeep with over sized tires and aftermarket goodies and I can bring mine with a lift and over sized tires and a couple of aftermarket goodies but with an investment of less than 10% ( probably closer to 5%) of yours and we can see if we can hash out a definition of "extreme" that will at least give us a level playing field when discussing "extreme" performance. I will buy the adult beverages once the 'wheeling is done.
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