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Building a Bumper?Ruffstuff Axle Simple Swap Kit!~Artec JK 1 TON SWAP~

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Unread 12-22-2010, 01:01 PM   #1
07_rubicon
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wobble isues

long story short... 07 rubicon 4inch lift ,stock control arms , ajustable track bar, new stock draglink...lift has been on the jeep 3.5 years no trouble till now..... im driveing down a paved road with decent pot holes on right side for about 1/4 mile when death wobble starts at a speed of 35 mph i stoped imediatly, returned home and started searching for loose or worn components, found trackbar bushing slightly worn and... replaced, found right side hub and carrier worn... replaced , found a little slop in drag link REPLACED , SPENT another hour or more checking everything... ALLS good.....nope retuned to the same road SAMETHING HAPPENS but not as bad , now im lost any help will be appreciated.......thanks in advance rich

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Unread 12-22-2010, 01:08 PM   #2
saharac
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Balance, allignment, ...
If everything else looks good, get a HD steering stabilizer....
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Unread 12-22-2010, 01:10 PM   #3
AHSTiger45
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A ghost?? I would help but now I'm interested in the solution! Goodluck.
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Unread 12-22-2010, 01:16 PM   #4
07_rubicon
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forgot .......i do have heavyduty steering stabilizer........ and im running 35's mtMTZ's that are neering the end of there lifespan at least another 5k left on them maybe less jeep itself only has 20k on it ....alot was offroad i read about alot of jeeps on this forum having this issue right after a lift installed, but thats not the case here......as for as allignment the jeep has always tracked strait. but that maybe my last hope
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Unread 12-22-2010, 01:18 PM   #5
RockyClymer
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Read Planmans writeup on DW - it is usually due to loose track bar - double check torque and tightness. Forget the steering stabilizer - it will just mask the cause of the DW and it will reapear...let us know what the results are - again, read Planmans writeup on DW - incredible info there on tracking down the problem.

added - if you just replaced the track bar due to a worn bushing - perhaps the worn bushing allowed the mounting holes to wallow out - very important to correct this if so and...the bolt is torqued to 125 lbft min - both ends...very important to get this tight - some folks just don't get it tight enough esp after replacement.
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Unread 12-22-2010, 01:19 PM   #6
saharac
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well that narrows it down even further...
only balance and allignment to go...
goodluck man..
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Unread 12-22-2010, 10:43 PM   #7
planman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 07_rubicon View Post
long story short... 07 rubicon 4inch lift ,stock control arms , ajustable track bar, new stock draglink...lift has been on the jeep 3.5 years no trouble till now..... im driveing down a paved road with decent pot holes on right side for about 1/4 mile when death wobble starts at a speed of 35 mph i stoped imediatly, returned home and started searching for loose or worn components, found trackbar bushing slightly worn and... replaced, found right side hub and carrier worn... replaced , found a little slop in drag link REPLACED , SPENT another hour or more checking everything... ALLS good.....nope retuned to the same road SAMETHING HAPPENS but not as bad , now im lost any help will be appreciated.......thanks in advance rich
Read this and watch the video:

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f96/d...bbles-1052221/

This is the inspection checklist:


Quote:
Originally Posted by planman View Post
NEW, UPDATED DIAGNOSIS CHECKLIST

Assuming your tire psi is 28-30, your tires/wheels have been balanced and rotated to make sure the wobble doesn't move with the rotation, here would be my order:

  1. Remove the steering stabilizer.
  2. Have someone turn the engine on and turn slowly from full lock to full lock while I visually, manually (with my hands on the components), and auditorily inspect for any play in the tie rod ends, drag link ends, sector shaft, trackbar ends/bolts/brackets, and trackbar bracket welds.
  3. Then, do the same thing but with short, sharp, quick back and forth turns of the steering wheel between the 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock positions, instead of the slow, lock to lock approach.
  4. Then, I would remove the front trackbar to inspect the bolt holes for ovaling and inspect the trackbar bushings for separation or cracking with a long screw driver through the bolt sleeve and the trackbar in a vise to leverage against the bushing in all directions. If all is good, I would reinstall the trackbar with the tires on the ground at ride height to 125 lbs.
  5. Then, I would inspect the drag link end joints by using a large channel lock wrench that gave me enough leverage to check for up and down play in the drag link ends. There should not be any meaningful up and down play. If there is, the ends should be replaced, or a new drag link with heavy duty joints should be installed. After, I would check the torque of the drag link ends. Taller lifts magnify the problems of bad drag link ends.
  6. Then, I would inspect the tie rod ends with the channel lock wrench for up and down movement. There should be no meaningful up and down play. There should only be rotational movement in the joint end.
  7. Then, I would put the front axle on jack stands with the tires about 2" off the ground and check the front ball joints by using a long pry bar as a lever under the front tires to lift them up to inspect for up and down play in the lower ball joints. There shouldn't be more than maybe 1-2 mm.
  8. Then, I would use the prybar/lever against the frame and the top of the tire to inspect for lateral movement of the top ball joints. There shouldn't be any. If you have a lighter tire/wheel combo, you can do this by hand.
  9. Then, I would remove the front tires/wheels and remove the front tie rod--one knuckle at a time. Then with a large wrench or vice grips, I would inspect the end for side to side play. Then I would reinstall the end and torque to spec and repeat on the other side.
  10. Then, I would remove the brake calipers and brake disks to inspect the unitbearings for play.
  11. Then, I would reinstall the discs, brake calipers, and tires/wheels and set the axle back on the ground.
  12. Then, I would support but not lift the front axle with a floor jack and loosen the front lower control arm bolts. One at a time, I would drop the lower control arms to inspect the bolt holes and bushings (similar to with the trackbar), reinstall without torquing, and do the next one. Afterwards, remove the floor jack so the suspension is at ride height, vigorously rock the vehicle side to side and front and back, then torque to spec.
  13. Next, I would inspect the sector shaft that comes out of the steering box for cracking or twisting.
  14. Then, I would take a test drive without the steering stablizer to feel for any wobbles.
  15. Finally, I would reinstall the steering stablizer or spring $40 for a heavy duty steering stablizer.

If this front end inspection does not diagnose and/or solve it, then I would move to an alignment.
  1. I would use adjustable lower front control arms to set my caster spec between 4 and 5 degrees--with a cross caster that has less on the driver side than the passenger side. I would personally not do more or less, with a target around 4.5-4.7 degrees caster.
  2. If my camber is out of spec, but it is not due to failed ball joints, I would install offset ball joints to get my camber in spec.
  3. I would set my toe-in to spec on the machine--which is about a 1/8" toe-in.
  4. If my front to rear alignment is off, I would install rear lower adjustable control arms to fix this.

With all this, I highly doubt you do not find the source.

The last ditch thing if there is a non-DW, speed dependent range wobble, I would borrow a different set of wheels and tires to see if it changes, and I would try driving it with no front driveshaft to see if that changes anything.

Although it is always a good idea to inspect your axle shaft u-joints, they will not cause DW.

The most common sources of full on DW are:
  • Improperly torqued trackbar bolts
  • Damaged trackbar and control arm bushings because bolts were torqued on a car lift or while the vehicle was not at ride height with the tires on the ground. When you torque trackbar and control arm bolts, the bracket pinches the bolt sleeve in the bushing, as well as the bushing itself. If this is at a geometry other than actual ride height, the bushings are twisted/bound/pre-loaded, and they will eventually fail/separate/etc. If you have a flex joint end, this does not apply for that end.
  • Ovaled out trackbar bracket holes due to DW episodes from loose bolts.
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Unread 01-04-2011, 08:26 PM   #8
07_rubicon
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well i think im off to the tire store and get the alignment done ........somehow i think im missing something
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Unread 01-04-2011, 08:52 PM   #9
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steering stabilizer masks the problem...fyi. NEVER should a steering stabilizer be a solution for an existing problem. fix whats wrong.

what size tires do you have? have you checked your steering box? they are absolute CRAP stock for 35's+. put her up on the jacks, turn the key to the ign setting (engine off). turn your wheel from 9 to 3 position very quickly then STOP immediatly in the 12 position. what are you tires doing? did they stop immediatly or keep going back side to side? (do this standing outside the vehicle for a good view) if they shake back and forth after you stop moving the wheel.... you can see where im going here. lol

once you do that...

drop her back on the ground. start the motor. turn the wheel back and forth. keep an eye on the spring perches in regards to upper and lower. when you turn the wheel left to right does the bottom one stay stationary and the top one move? if so, track back. if not, other problems.

hope this helps
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Unread 01-05-2011, 01:30 AM   #10
asknight
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Caster... what's it set at on yours, OP?
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Unread 01-05-2011, 09:47 PM   #11
njaimet
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Question...just put on 3.5" suspension with 35s. Took it to get aligned right after completed and pulls to right. They are well known in town for good work...they said they did research and in order to get to align straight they need to install a cam bolt? They said it will make it adjustable. Also while driving on interstate I dont have vibration just seems all over the place, prob cause more top heavy..however on two diff occasions i have hit a bump and my gas cuts out and does not operate correctly for a few seconds. Whats going on? I am going to follow plan mans list tom. but dont they I have anything loose. Thanks-
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Unread 01-05-2011, 10:35 PM   #12
planman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by njaimet View Post
Question...just put on 3.5" suspension with 35s. Took it to get aligned right after completed and pulls to right. They are well known in town for good work...they said they did research and in order to get to align straight they need to install a cam bolt? They said it will make it adjustable. Also while driving on interstate I dont have vibration just seems all over the place, prob cause more top heavy..however on two diff occasions i have hit a bump and my gas cuts out and does not operate correctly for a few seconds. Whats going on? I am going to follow plan mans list tom. but dont they I have anything loose. Thanks-
Lower the tire psi in your load range E, Toyo Open Country MT 35x12.50R20 tires to 26 psi in all the tires but the front passenger tire. In the front passenger tire, run 28 psi. This will help with the drift right.

With larger tires, you need the narrow end of the toe-in recommended specs. By hand measurement with 35" tires, this equates to 1/16"-1/8" narrower in the front than the back of the tires. This will help with the flightiness.

The correct way to fix both the drift to the right and the flighty steering is with adjustable lower front control arms in order to set your driver side caster to about 4.5 degrees and your passenger caster to about 4.7 degrees. You can run more caster up to around 5 degrees, but your cross caster should put you at about 0.2 degrees more on the passenger side than the driver side.

Cambolts are fine if you are never going to offroad your jeep. Alignment shops like them because they are so easy to adjust. However, they come out of adjustment too easily on a rig that is frequently offroaded and are a bad solution. Front adjustable lower control arms are the best solution to fix caster and cross caster deficiencies.

If you are still in your guarantee period with your RC 3.5" lift, return the fixed front lower control arms to RC and pay the difference for them to send you adjustable front lower control arms.

Also, the RC drop pitman arm and front trackbar relocation bracket are a bad idea as they produce excess leverage on the steering box sector shaft and on the stock frame side trackbar bracket. It is not uncommon for these designs run of JKs that are driven offroad to result in broken/twisted sector shafts and broken frame side trackbar brackets.

If you are going to wheel your rig, it would be wise to also return the drop pitman arm and front trackbar relocation bracket to RC in exchange for an adjustable front trackbar and to reinstall your stock pitman arm.

If you are not going to wheel your rig, the lower tire psi combined with the greater toe-in, combined with the slightly higher tire psi on the front passenger tire may make your ride compliant enough to skip the return/exchange of the inferior designed parts.

This is what sometimes happens when a drop pitman arm is used on a JK with large, heavy tires:



This is what happens when there is over-leverage on the frame side front trackbar bracket:

Step #1:




Step #2:




Step #3:




Step #4 is to get rid of the frame side drop bracket and drop pitman arm, reinstall the stock pitman arm and repair the stock trackbar bracket, then install an adjustable front trackbar.


Finally, the gas cutting out should be accompanied with lights flashing on your speedometer/rpm display. It would be your ESP and BAS system. Your steering wheel is not exactly centered. So, the computer thinks you are in a slide. You can fix this by straitening your steering wheel using a 15 mm wrench to adjust the collar on your drag link. Then re-tighten the collar, drive around the block to make sure it is completely straight, then readjust again if it isn't.
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Unread 01-06-2011, 02:35 AM   #13
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I am never going to offroad my Jeep. Would you still suggest the adjustable control arms. I don't have to take a lot apart to put different front control arms on do I? Thanks for your imput, very helpful. Almost too helpful for a rookie like me.
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Unread 01-06-2011, 08:03 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by njaimet View Post
I am never going to offroad my Jeep. Would you still suggest the adjustable control arms. I don't have to take a lot apart to put different front control arms on do I? Thanks for your imput, very helpful. Almost too helpful for a rookie like me.
Then,
  • straighten the steering wheel to stop the ESP, BAS on bumps or curves
  • run 26 psi in all your tires except for 28 psi in the passenger front tire
  • look at your alignment readout to make sure the toe-in is at the narrow range of recommended specs
  • if that doesn't fix the problem, install front lower cambolts

Also, add to your regularly scheduled maintenance, re-torquing the trackbar bolts and trackbar relocation bracket bolts at every oil change interval (every 3k miles).
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Unread 01-06-2011, 08:10 AM   #15
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I had the cambolts put in. Having a Jeep with the correct caster settings is a night and day difference on the highway. The constant jinking around is almost completely gone.
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