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wiring help please

2K views 40 replies 10 participants last post by  Fujiscott 
#1 ·
so I bought a harness for my led fog lights, this is a picture of the diagram for the wireing. I understand that the red wire that comes out of the fuse goes to the battery, but the other red wire that is comming off the relay between the switch and the relay, where does that go? Does it go to a switched source? If so where is the best place ot find this? FYI I bought one of these and was going to use one of the switches sources to power this harness. http://www.painlessperformance.com/webcat/70103
This being the case could I just run the hot from the switched fuse on the painless block to my rocker switch and then back to the lights, and obviously run a ground along with it to the lights and just skip most of the harness?
 

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#2 ·
You don't want to power that block from the switch. You have the potential to draw way to much current thru the switch if you power the block thru it. I would connect the block to the battery thru the circuit breaker they provided. You can add a fuse tap to the switched ignition position in the TIPM for switched 12V. You use the switched 12V to power relay's to do the heavy hauling, keeping the current from the TIPM under an amp.

I believe it's the M7 position in the TIPM and it's got 3 holes in that spot for either 12V in Run and 12V (run and Acc) --X should be run only and X-- should be run acc.
 
#3 ·
you lost me or I lost you. The painless fuse block gets hooked directly to the battery and it has a power from the relay that goes ot a switched power source in the jeeps fuse block so that the three fuses in the block act as switched powersource so they only work when the car is on. I was going to power the two 45w leds from the battery and the switch from a relay powered from the painless block. From what I understand that is the purpose of the painless block, so not to overload the main jeep fuse block. Did I miss something? At this point I plan on skippint the whole harness that I posted the diagram of and just running power from the painless block to rocker switch and from there to the two leds. What thickness wire for two 45 watt leds? 14 aug or 16?
 
#4 ·
You cannot run the load for the lights through the switch, it will melt. You need to run the load for the lights through the relay and your diagram says they provided a 30 amp fuse for the lights. If your fuse block is like mine it is only rated for 20 amp fuses.

Your best bet will be to take power from the battery (through the provided fuse) to the relay. Then power from the painless wiring fuse block to the switch. Use one of the switched fuses so your lights won't be left on if you shut the Jeep off. Change out the 20 amp fuse in the block for a 1 or 3 amp fuse, most relays need less than 1 amp to trigger them and you don't want to melt the switch or wiring to it.
 
#5 ·
sorry I had edited my post but I guess it did not save it. I will be running a relay, the block will power the switch and the load will come from the battery, however I do think the other way would work as 90w led would be pulling less than 10 amps. That harness is rated at 30 amps as it is designed to handle up to 300w, and I think the switch could handle 10 amps, but to be safe I am going to use a relay either way
 
#6 ·
why are you even using a harness? the led fogs dont even draw half the power of the garbage oem fog lights. do you have a link to the lights you have?

edit: just seen your pic you posted, those are not really fog lights up that high lol, more like auxiliary lights. you want fogs low as typically fog is a few feet off the ground, all those will do are blind you like the headlights do. if you took out the oem fogs those will work fine on the oem wiring, they still draw less than the oem bulbs do. the way led work and are measured they do not draw 45 watts.
 
#7 ·
rubicon17 said:
why are you even using a harness? the led fogs dont even draw half the power of the garbage oem fog lights. if you took out the oem fogs those will work fine on the oem wiring, they still draw less than the oem bulbs do. the way led work and are measured they do not draw 45 watts.
The problem is the CANBUS. If the draw is not the same between OEM and aftermarket lights the electronics will go bat**** crazy. The LEDs have to draw exactly the same as OEM, no more, no less. If an LED draws less, the system thinks a bulb is burnt out. The designated harness has resistors to mimic the draw of OEM.
 
#8 ·
rubicon 17, yes I realize they are aux lights not fog lights. Trust me I know the difference. I grew up in Brazil, and every weekend we would leave Sao Paulo and go down the mountain to a beach city, the twisty mountain road was more often than not fogged in where you could barely make out the car right in front of you. Where I grew up the term fog lights was used for all aux lights just like all bandaids are bandaids even if they are another brand or not really a normal bandaid. FYI I have them mounted on the car and wires run to the battery, still waiting on the harness that will have the switch and relay, but just for kicks I ran my load to the battery tonight, they are awesome!!! Light up about half a football field!!!
 
#11 ·
Those anti flicker doggles are for the headlights.. the fogs don't flicker like the headlights but do require a certain draw. If that power draw is not the the same as the OEM lights it will cause other electrical issues.
Some Jeep fog replacements have a little black control box on the light wiring that replicates OEM power draw.
 
#12 ·
bs, they work fine with or without the adapters on fog lights, i know because ive used them for 3 weeks now with no issues. unless you have something drawing 55w+ on each fog circuit you wont have issues, and 45w led dont even draw close to 45w. these are mainly used for the ability to draw full constant voltage for the fogs not to cancel a warning light that was never there. i tried with and without, there is no issue on this circut with lights that draw less power than oem.
 
#13 ·
Well good luck to you then. Hope they continue to work for you. Many Others are not so lucky...
 
#14 ·
My add on to the fog circuit ran two years before the tipm got tired of dealing with the out of parameter draw... Only cost me 1200 bucks to save 30 $ expense and hour time/ hassle of separate circuit.
 
#15 ·
and how did it get tired of it? you have a 2011, weren't the older jk known for tipm problems? i have ran these for hours and hours at night now. it either works or it doesnt. 2 years later could have been anything to the tipm. but you also added on, which could have easily went above and beyond what it is designed for. if he deleted the oem fogs and hooked those lights to the wiring there would be no issues, if he changed the oem to led and installed those, probably still no issues as led doesnt even draw close to what a incandescent bulb does. it should blow a fuse before the tipm fails.
 
#16 ·
A friend of mine had the same issue with his 2014 and LED fogs. Worked fine for awhile then one day he was on the highway on his way home got the wonderful Christmas tree of lights on the dash. He managed to limp it to the dealer which took them 2 days to find the problem. His TIPM didn't like the cheap lights.. so it's up to you.

The TIPMs weren't an issue on the older models anymore then they are on the newer models..
 
#18 ·
A friend of mine had the same issue with his 2014 and LED fogs. Worked fine for awhile then one day he was on the highway on his way home got the wonderful Christmas tree of lights on the dash. He managed to limp it to the dealer which took them 2 days to find the problem. His TIPM didn't like the cheap lights.. so it's up to you.

The TIPMs weren't an issue on the older models anymore then they are on the newer models..
what did they say caused it and how? plenty of tipm issues that seem to pop up, that could have been anything. doesn't make much sense it would be like a fog light burning out and driving around with one oem on, tipm self destructs because less draw on a circuit? I doubt led fog lights are the issue when plenty have went bad for no reason at all on stock vehicles. just looking to know exactly how less draw on a circuit is going to burn up a tipm.
 
#17 ·
The bus is a processor - processors, just like your home PC, can handle fluctuations - but eventually fail. Please don't try to convince me that changing the draw on a bus controlled circuit has zero ramifications to the components of the processor boards. I be the network admin for a rather large system...
 
#19 ·
The lights .. they disconnected the LEDs andall was well. He was lucky it didn't go so far as killing the TIPM..
 
#20 ·
So, did anyone ever determine if there is a viable "dimming" option to power an interior rocker switch (which then triggers a relay to power offroad lights)? Can the lighter/power plug be used for this or will the load cause TIPM to freak out?
 
#21 ·
jtodaro said:
So, did anyone ever determine if there is a viable "dimming" option to power an interior rocker switch (which then triggers a relay to power offroad lights)? Can the lighter/power plug be used for this or will the load cause TIPM to freak out?
Offroad lights are best wired off direct battery power. Relays for the switches of course. As for dimming switch LEDs with dash lights, I haven't seen a work around for that.
 
#23 ·
Great explanation .... Thank You.
 
#25 ·
good info jw but im still not sure how its a problem. tons of other run led headlights and fogs and never have issues, i could see problems if someones trying to run a 300w light bar on the fogs or something, isnt the pulse width modulation always going crazy anyway? wouldnt the anti flicker be pulling the same power as the oe lights were? would love to see what jeep did from the factory for the 2017s with led lights, maybe a good question to ask them to avoid issues or if they think there would be any? what about quadratec and all the other led fog lamp sellers, most are plug and play, surely they wpuld research before they sold thousands of them?
 
#27 ·
Ideally that's correct. But business and ideals are at odds here.
I would have to buy (or perform very distinct analysis) on one of EVERY VEHICLE (model, sub model and option group per model and submodel) manufactured to assure my LED light is 100%compatible - not just at the moment you connect them - but that running them doesn't wear down the processor with more error packets over a three - ??? years life. That aint happening any more than anyone actually tests half the crap sold on Wait there More ads... add in that not all of us operate the vehicle the same (some folks NEVER have to worry about the fog lights and turn signals being on at the same time because they never use one or the other). The important thing to remember here is the canbus is ALL modules (even those monitoring separated circuits) as one complete network "wire" loop. So even setting your climate control changes the latency (bit time under the clocking that all are in state of ON). So what it boild down to is % of failures. If I sell a product and 90% are problem free - I continue to sell but add the COST of those 10% fails to the price of the other 90%. Same theory behind where Chrysler draws the oil consumption line!

If we both bought the same computer system - you add only a printer and run two maybe three programs at once. I connect a printer, scanner, cam and not only do I run 12 programs simultaneously I also live stream music while I multi task, and I connect to a database and sort all kinds of data - my processor is running at 85-90% capacity all the time - yours sees 85% maybe only 10 of the time...

My processor (and possibly even the motherboard which IS the bus in a PC) will give up the ghost sooner than yours. Maybe I get 4 years and you get 10. We don't catch on as the SOFTWARE becomes obsolete so we buy new computer every 5 anyway. Its not just the LOAD - its how much processing is used batting away error packets - and at what point does a module "lock up" - like our PC does when it gets overworked!!
 
#29 ·
I've been doing some reading about the fog light circuit in the JK.

So far, this is what I believe:

The only CAN/LIN Bus involved is on the fog light request side of things.

The Steering Control Module (SCM) monitors a hard wired multiplex input from the left multi-function switch to determine whether the fog lamps are selected, then sends an electronic front fog lamp switch status message to the EMIC over the Local Interface Network (LIN) data bus and the EMIC relays an electronic front fog lamp request message to the TIPM over the CAN data bus.

Once the TIPM knows you want the fog lights on...
When the TIPM receives a front fog lamp request message it then controls front fog lamp operation by controlling a battery voltage output through high side drivers, (MOSFET), on right and left fog lamp feed circuits.

The phrase "battery voltage output" makes me think the fogs are not PWM'd. (For the headlights, it says pulse width modulated voltage output to the headlamps, rather than battery voltage.)

The fogs are controlled by MOSFETs inside the TIPM.
It protects the fog light circuits from over current, over temperature, over voltage, and can detect an open circuit. It looks for an open circuit when the lights are off. If it can't send 30-100μA through the wires and bulb to ground, it detects an open circuit.
No mention of monitoring an under-current load.

More to come. Next, I'll probe the fog lights to verify whether or not they are PWM'd.
 
#30 ·
The fogs are controlled by MOSFETs inside the TIPM.
It protects the fog light circuits from over current, over temperature, over voltage, and can detect an open circuit. It looks for an open circuit when the lights are off. If it can't send 30-100μA through the wires and bulb to ground, it detects an open circuit.
No mention of monitoring an under-current load.

More to come. Next, I'll probe the fog lights to verify whether or not they are PWM'd.
MOSFETs operate on field effect so even if the supply wire (12V to fog) being MOSFET sampled is not PWM - theres a clock effect! (how often the MOSFET fieled oscillates). And the open circuit detection brings up the question of how does the circuit built into the LED effect the MOSFET clocking? Then how much heat is developed through the metal oxide gate (or more precisely nowadays to be polysilicon) determines whether or not it lives a long happy life... I have been asked how my fog light wire add in (a relay trigger side) caused my tipm to go whacky - but only when I turned on the high beams. Easy. The fogs went OFF (but windings in relay did not show mosfet the open circuit expected).
 
#31 ·
back to my original wiring question, my harness is here, and I wired the lights. I ran a positive from the lights to the battery and I ran the negative from the lights to the same ground I used for my winch. So on the harness i have the main power connecting to the battery, no problem there, and I have the switch power also hooking to a acc power and a negative to ground, but then I have the positive and negative loads for the lights. The positive will go to the red to my lights that I ran, then can I just ground the black one to the chasis since my lights are already grounded to the chasis where the winch is grounded or do I need to run a negative to the lights instead? I would guess I could just ground it as I have done in the past but I want to confirm as it is better to ask then feel like an idiot when something goes wrong.
 
#32 ·
Such an easy question - shame the answer has to be complicated lol.

Any circuit that uses the chassis point as a ground can become problematic. With all the differing circuits and voltages in the circuits we see a problem with electrolysis when using the chassis ground (as opposed to dedicated ground wire). If the ground connection ages and and becomes less conductive the propensity to cause electrolysis rises. Electrolysis was a larger problem in the mid 80s to 90s as the computer systems (adding 8, 5 and 3 v circuits) got adopted faster than the field could learn what caused the issues. That's what drove engineers to use dedicated wires so its not as problematic as it was 20 years ago...

My approach is whenever using an existing circuit always run a dedicated g wire. Added circuits I run a dedicated wire whenever practical. Since I am already pulling one wire adding a second to the pull is not a whole lot of work (if any) and minimal cost. As your circuits are add ins - you should be able to simply pin the ground wire down to chassis (on the lights - not the winch) and see no problems. Cant say what the inside of your cylinder head water jacket will look like in 15 years though! Could be that after years of welding and repairing electrolysis damage I am just a bit leery (and overkilling the approach)... but I want my stuff to last a LONG time so see the extra precaution as a simple way to help my goal. There are several dedicated ground posts under the hood - get a wire to one of those at the least (as opposed to just grounding at the light mount or bumper with a screw).
 
#33 ·
Ok, but now I am a bit confused. The winch is grounded to the battery, and I just ran the ground for the lights to the same ground that goes from the battery to the winch so am I ok to stay there or should I run another dedicated ground from the battery. I am not grounded to the bumper, I am grounded to the post on the winch where the ground from the battery hooks to. And yes I am trying to do whatever is best.
 
#34 ·
gotcha - but no its not good to ground your lights there. BECAUSE - the ground connection IS made through that big cable - but also could eddy through the winch motor windings. THATS the premier cause for electrolysis! Run a ground along that the winch ground cable - but you can shorten and terminate it to the closest ground lug on the fender... or you can add a lug (wired to the fender lug) at the bumper and make that a common light ground bus...
 
#36 ·
Ok, so I had time today to install the wiring harness. this is the one I used: http://www.ebay.com/itm/351802248746?item=351802248746&viewitem=&vxp=mtr
I used this one simply because I really did not want to install the switch pod at this point as I really only have these lights and I did not want four or five switches that did nothing. I did redo the wiring for the ground and ran the ground from the harness all the way to the lights and did not use the ground from my winch as per your suggestion. Problem I rand into was that the harness was slightly different than the diagram. in the diagram there is a positive and negative that get power from a switched power source so the lights would onlt run when the car was on. This harness did not have that so they work all the time when the button is on. I am actually fine with this however the button has two leds on it a red when it is off and a green when the switch is on. The red stays on all the time even when the car is off. Is this going to end up drawing off the battery and draining it over time or is the led soo low of a draw that it will not make a difference? Is it worth getting another harness and swapping so it goes off?
 
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