[unclejjg]

I've always wanted an off-roader, but the one thing that keeps me away is the inability to use a part-time transfer case on your "average" slippery road. I'm not talking 5" of standing snow...I'm talking dry patch/wet patch, black ice conditions, generally lousy day, etc. conditions.

What tools does the JK have at its disposal to handle such things? Is traction control enough? Are there modifications that can be made....besides chains on the tires? Can a limited-slip differential be placed on a vehicle that already has locking diffs? If so, would that do anything.

How would those of you have have owned recent Wranglers compare their winter handling to an average 2WD car?

Otherwise, I guess I'll have to settle for the new Liberty (if it has a full-time 4WD option) and do some medium off-roading, or settle for a Patriot with the FD2 and do some....mild offroading (oh grassy gnoll here I come).

[Sweeney]

I park my car and use my TJ exclusively in the winter for my 38 mile commute. Yes, you can have a locker with posi. I have a Detroit Elec-Trac in mine. The biggest thing is tire selection and learning to handle your specific vehicle. For traction on winter roads you want a tire with lots of edges and siping.
I custom grooved and siped my Swamper TSL radials which greatly improved their "slippery road" performance. A good AT tire (like BFG) works well.

[Hip2u77]

Originally Posted by unclejjg

I've always wanted an off-roader, but the one thing that keeps me away is the inability to use a part-time transfer case on your "average" slippery road. I'm not talking 5" of standing snow...I'm talking dry patch/wet patch, black ice conditions, generally lousy day, etc. conditions.

What tools does the JK have at its disposal to handle such things? Is traction control enough? Are there modifications that can be made....besides chains on the tires? Can a limited-slip differential be placed on a vehicle that already has locking diffs? If so, would that do anything.

Following are available safety and security features in the all-new 2007 Jeep Wrangler:


Anti-lock-braking System: Electronic sensors help detect impending wheel lockup. The ABS system offers improved steering control under extreme braking and/or slippery conditions

Brake Assist: The vehicle senses a panic brake condition and applies maximum braking power, providing the shortest possible stopping distance

Electronic Stability Program (ESP): ESP aids the driver in maintaining vehicle directional stability, providing oversteer and understeer control to maintain vehicle behavior on various road surfaces. This feature has three settings, allowing the driver more control over the vehicle during spirited driving

Electronic Roll Mitigation: A system that observes and monitors the vehicle roll attitude and lateral force to estimate the potential for a rollover situation. If necessary, the engine torque is reduced and a short burst of full braking is applied to the appropriate wheel to help stabilize the vehicle attitude and reduce the vehicle's lateral force

Originally Posted by unclejjg

How would those of you have have owned recent Wranglers compare their winter handling to an average 2WD car?

Irrelevant. The '07 Wrangler is new from the ground up (for the most part) so you can't compare it to anything before it.

Originally Posted by unclejjg

Otherwise, I guess I'll have to settle for the new Liberty (if it has a full-time 4WD option) and do some medium off-roading, or settle for a Patriot with the FD2 and do some....mild offroading (oh grassy gnoll here I come).

While a full time 4wd system is safer and less of a headache than a part time system, I wouldn't give up an Unlimited for either of the above choices. Remember, a part time system can be shifted into 4wd at any speed, so if the streets are dry, keep it in 2wd. If it gets slick, put it in 4wd. I drove my fiance's Liberty (part time) in the high side numerous times when the streets were only wet, just to see how it would react, and it was fine. No jerking / bucking on anything but hard corners. I would sometimes run it in the high side if it was raining real hard just to help with tracking on the highway.

Also, just having the ground clearance and more aggressive tires will make a lot of difference compared to a 2wd car. . . now, with that said, I've seen plenty of front wheel drive cars with good snow tires, or even with all season tires come up my driveway when my fiances, parents 2wd GMC XUV wouldn't make it. . .even with a run at it, so there are exceptions to all the rules.

Nonetheless, unless you live in the mountains and are dealing with dry / snow / slush / dry / wet type conditions on a regular basis then I think you'll be perfectly happy with a part-time system in whatever you choose to buy. Just remember that in the Wranglers you get the freedom of having more off road capability, a convertible, easier time of lifting it, etc. so it's a no brainer in my eyes. We're going JK Unlimited and getting rid of the '05 GC we have now.

[Karamba]

Originally Posted by unclejjg

I've always wanted an off-roader, but the one thing that keeps me away is the inability to use a part-time transfer case on your "average" slippery road. I'm not talking 5" of standing snow...I'm talking dry patch/wet patch, black ice conditions, generally lousy day, etc. conditions.

While awd may allow you to take a slippery corner faster, for normal driving it is not that much safer. All cars have 4 whell brakes, and stability control systems normally operate by braking, and reducing throttle, not by accelerating.

You would need 4wd to get up a slippery hill, but once you are moving you safety (as in not crashing) is in your tires and brakes and traction control.

Need for a full time 4Wd for safety is greatly overrated IMO, unless your idea for safety is blasting out of corners like a rally car.

So part-time JK will be fine. You will not get stuck - you can engage 4wd to slowly get out, and you will not end up in a ditch - it got traction and stability control.

[unclejjg]

Yes, you can have a locker with posi. I have a Detroit Elec-Trac in mine.

So it is possible to have a Rubicon with locking diffs, and add a limited-slip like one of the Detriot models also? How do they not conflict?

While a full time 4wd system is safer and less of a headache than a part time system, I wouldn't give up an Unlimited for either of the above choices. Remember, a part time system can be shifted into 4wd at any speed, so if the streets are dry, keep it in 2wd.

I guess my point is I'd like to "avoid" as opposed to "react" if possible. I currently have a Chevy Blazer with Automatic 4WD, parttime 4-Hi, and 4-Lo. I live in Rochester, and needless to say we get our fair share of crappy weather. Somedays, you just know there is going to be trouble with ice...or maybe it is just starting to snow. when that happens, I hit my 4WD auto button and in terms of cornering (like turning on and off the express way) and starting from a stop, my vehicle performs better.
I've heard running a partime system, in any situation besides slippery or offroad, causes drive-line binding and can ruin your transfer case.

However, if the new vehicle has enough other goodies like traction control, stability control, etc or if I could add a little something to make up for the power to all 4 wheels, I'd be interested in having a Wrangler....who wouldn't?

All cars have 4 whell brakes, and stability control systems normally operate by braking, and reducing throttle, not by accelerating.

I have never experienced stability control....I'm curious as to how it will perform or what its real uses are....


Thanks for the responses!

[Karamba]

Originally Posted by unclejjg

I have never experienced stability control....I'm curious as to how it will perform or what its real uses are....

Its the greatest safety improvement since seat belts. It is even better then seat belts and air-bags, as it reduces your chance to get into a bad accident in the first place - something like 40% decrease in fatal accidents for the same car without and with a stability control.

Good write-up: http://money.cnn.com/2003/09/25/pf/autos/what_is_esc/index.htm

Proper driving skills go a long way, but do not substitute for an ESC - you can not brake a single wheel, and you can not get off the throttle in a fraction of a second - especially when making an abrupt evasive maneuver.

Yeah, part time does not perform as well on the road, but that's a truck, not a sports car, 2wd will get you going just fine, and burn less gas, and less wear and tear on the drivetrain, and it will be for all purposes just as safe when you need to slow down and stay on the road.

[Sweeney]

Originally Posted by unclejjg

So it is possible to have a Rubicon with locking diffs, and add a limited-slip like one of the Detriot models also? How do they not conflict?

The TJ Rubicon has locking diffs AND a posi rear. The posi is a gear type like my Detroit. These are not auto locking lockers. You have to flip a switch.
With the JK, there may not be an actual posi but the ESP system will act like one. Honestly, I'd prefer to have an actual posi and not chew up the brakes but, in the Rubicon, you can just lock 'em up anyway.

[Karamba]

Originally Posted by Sweeney

With the JK, there may not be an actual posi but the ESP system will act like one. Honestly, I'd prefer to have an actual posi and not chew up the brakes but, in the Rubicon, you can just lock 'em up anyway.

From Xterra and FJ users feedback that I have seen it seems that a brake actuated limited slip is more gentle on your drive train then a limited slip engaging. Seems reasonable - one would rather change brake pads, then a blown diff...

I wonder if one can engage the rear locker and have the ESP work the front on the JK, so that you can actually steer...

[Sweeney]

Originally Posted by Karamba

From Xterra and FJ users feedback that I have seen it seems that a brake actuated limited slip is more gentle on your drive train then a limited slip engaging. Seems reasonable - one would rather change brake pads, then a blown diff...

I wonder if one can engage the rear locker and have the ESP work the front on the JK, so that you can actually steer...

The limited slip in mine is invisible... no perceptable stress on the drivetrain. It sounds like a matter of driver input. I'd actually rather have no anti-lock or stabilty control... I don't like my vehicles doing any driving for me. One of the first things to go in my BMW was the ABS. It stops shorter and is 25lbs lighter in the nose.

I believe the ESP works by keeping the speed differental of the wheels within a specified range. If that is the case then it should work as you describe.

[Diggs9]

I live in the mountains of East Tennessee. I have owned Jeep CJ's since 1976. My first one was a 1972 CJ-5 , 304 v8 , that thing was great.....The CJ
has been the very best snow moble I have ever had. I can't imagine the new JK's being any different. However, this new Rubicon will be my first automatic....

[Karamba]

Originally Posted by Sweeney

I believe the ESP works by keeping the speed differental of the wheels within a specified range. If that is the case then it should work as you describe.

Two different things - traction control in 4Lo, and stability control on highway speeds.

First one is just limiting slip. Second one also tracks vehicle direction, steering input etc.

I do not like my car driving for me when I am on an auto cross track. I love auto cross. On a public highway - no way I will do a better job correcting unpredicted instability then a computer can. It is just folly to think otherwise. Good driving skills are a great help in general - but not a substitute for stability control.

When some idiot jumps in front of me on a highway, I do want the security of ABS, not a fantom handling improvement of taking it off.

[zband]

I believe the 07 will be *much* better in the snow/ ice. Not because of it electronics - rather it has a longer wheel base and better tires (BFG vs Wrangler GSA). Not to mention the engine make less torque at lower RPMs so giving a little too much wont result in spinning tires.

I rip on the 07 Jeeps, yeah I admit it, but in this topic there will be no comparison- it will be better than the 06...

[Sweeney]

Originally Posted by Karamba

Two different things - traction control in 4Lo, and stability control on highway speeds.

First one is just limiting slip. Second one also tracks vehicle direction, steering input etc.

I do not like my car driving for me when I am on an auto cross track. I love auto cross. On a public highway - no way I will do a better job correcting unpredicted instability then a computer can. It is just folly to think otherwise. Good driving skills are a great help in general - but not a substitute for stability control.

When some idiot jumps in front of me on a highway, I do want the security of ABS, not a fantom handling improvement of taking it off.

My response was for your specific question of ESP as related to the rear diff being locked.
"Fantom handling improvement"? No, the quickest way to stop a vehicle is to lock all four tires creating maximum friction. It has been proven many times that you can stop a vehicle shorter without ABS. Granted, doing this you lose the ability to turn. It's also a given that the vast majority of people don't know how to threshold brake or that, in many cases, applying power to produce oversteer to avoid an incident is a better solution than jumping on the brakes. Of course, you have to know the handling characteristics of the specific vehicle you're driving. My car stops over 5ft on average shorter from 60mph without the ABS... as tested.
My main concern with all of these safety features is that, on the occation that the system fails or they hop in a lesser equiped vehicle, the driver's attrophied skills leave them more suseptable to being involved in a incident.
Yes, for the majority of people these are good, perhaps needed things... not for me though.

[ghostship]

Originally Posted by Sweeney

My response was for your specific question of ESP as related to the rear diff being locked.
"Fantom handling improvement"? No, the quickest way to stop a vehicle is to lock all four tires creating maximum friction. It has been proven many times that you can stop a vehicle shorter without ABS. Granted, doing this you lose the ability to turn. It's also a given that the vast majority of people don't know how to threshold brake or that, in many cases, applying power to produce oversteer to avoid an incident is a better solution than jumping on the brakes. Of course, you have to know the handling characteristics of the specific vehicle you're driving. My car stops over 5ft on average shorter from 60mph without the ABS... as tested.
My main concern with all of these safety features is that, on the occation that the system fails or they hop in a lesser equiped vehicle, the driver's attrophied skills leave them more suseptable to being involved in a incident.
Yes, for the majority of people these are good, perhaps needed things... not for me though.

You're talking about two different things. Locking all four wheels is NOT the quickest way to stop a vehicle. Applying the brakes hard, At Impending Lockup, without locking a wheel causing a skid and loss of traction, is the quickest way to stop a vehicle. This is exactly what Anti-Lock Brake systems are designed to do; minimize or eliminate wheel lockup. Some vehicles, with a trained driver on a dry prepared course, can produce a shorter stopping distance using this manual braking technique. Most vehicles, with most drivers in real-world adverse conditions such as rain, snow and ice, the ABS will win every time.

The new JK's ESP system works in conjunction with the ABS, reducing torque input at any wheel and or applying the brakes, when loss of traction is detected. No human can manually do that.

For inclement weather driving, the ESP is superior to a mechanical Limited Slip devise.

[Sweeney]

Yes, anti-lock prevents wheel lockup and skidding and allows you to maintain steering control but it is a well known fact that it also increases stopping distance in most cases. Yes, most people need it because they don't actually know how to properly control a vehicle in emergency situations.