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Unread 03-09-2013, 08:15 AM   #61
SLADE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XJ-Tim View Post
looks like you'll have to do that for everyone else here too as the only person that agrees with you is yourself.

Since you dont know what a source is ill spell it out for you. >Show us a few links to other people stating the same thing you are, i'd be impressed if you actually did find some material.

/thread unless SLADE cares to continue.

I was looking for info on bump stop requirments for 35's and came across this one.Heres one... Notice the difference in bump stop requirements when a body lift is used.


http://www.jkowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=69772


Quote:
You will need the wheel spacers. You absolutely must remove the flimsy lug retainer clips when installing wheel spacers or aftermarket wheels.

Regardless of whether you run a leveling kit, you will need extended bumpstops if you drive it off level pavement.

If you run flat flares and a 1" body lift, you need to add 1" rear extended bumpstops.

If you run flat flares and no body lift, you will need 2" rear extended bumpstops. This isn't advisable unless the rear suspension has at least 1" lift--either taller springs or a leveling kit that includes a rear coil spacer.

If you run no body lift and stock flares, you need 2.5" front and rear extended bumpstops. This usually corresponds to running a 2.5" or taller lift--coil spacers or taller springs.

Shocks limit suspension down travel. Bumpstops limit suspension up travel.

You could run 4" springs with flat flares and still rub in the rear off road if you don't extend the rear bumpstops.

You know it's really not that hard to find "sources" on the topic...
Here is another one....

http://www.jkowners.com/forum/showth...p+stop+35+tire

Quote:
With flat flares and a 1" body lift, to run 37s you want 0"-1" front and 2.5" rear extended bumpstops.

If you want to do 37s with flat flares and no body lift, you want 1.5"-2" front and 3.5" rear extended bumpstops.



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Unread 03-09-2013, 11:49 AM   #62
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Slade, you do realize there are other reasons for bumpstops right? They are not simply for keeping the tires from ripping off your fenders. Bumpstops are added to prevent shocks from bottoming out, or prevent suspension bind, and others I cannot think of right now. There is way more involved than just clearing larger tires in the setup of bumpstops. And sourcing what manufacturers say you should run for bumpstops is not the best way to do it. I will be building my own after I take the measurements that I need.

As to the original question. Look into other kits as well. Im lifting my JK here in a couple of weeks 3" and will not have to drill into the knuckle. If you want to go 3.5" then go for it, my recommendation would be to do it as a suspension lift, especially with you wanting to run 35's that is plenty of clearance.
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Originally Posted by cyberpyrot View Post
is it a plink plink kerrrrdunk? or more of a brrrrrconk doc doc miiiidge pang!!!? or is it a badonk ka donk? if it is the latter its just the normal fat *** of the JK

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Unread 03-09-2013, 12:52 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COLOUXJ View Post
Slade, you do realize there are other reasons for bumpstops right? They are not simply for keeping the tires from ripping off your fenders. Bumpstops are added to prevent shocks from bottoming out, or prevent suspension bind, and others I cannot think of right now. There is way more involved than just clearing larger tires in the setup of bumpstops. And sourcing what manufacturers say you should run for bumpstops is not the best way to do it. I will be building my own after I take the measurements that I need.

As to the original question. Look into other kits as well. Im lifting my JK here in a couple of weeks 3" and will not have to drill into the knuckle. If you want to go 3.5" then go for it, my recommendation would be to do it as a suspension lift, especially with you wanting to run 35's that is plenty of clearance.
Yah I don't think I will be doing a BL. I am curious what 3" lift your going with? I know there are a lot of kits that don't come with a high steer kit but I don't think that really fixes my problem. I want it to handle perfect and I think a high steer kit is how I get it to do that. I think I just need to get over the drilling fear as it will give me the results that I want.
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Unread 03-09-2013, 01:48 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COLOUXJ View Post
Slade, you do realize there are other reasons for bumpstops right? They are not simply for keeping the tires from ripping off your fenders. Bumpstops are added to prevent shocks from bottoming out, or prevent suspension bind, and others I cannot think of right now. There is way more involved than just clearing larger tires in the setup of bumpstops. And sourcing what manufacturers say you should run for bumpstops is not the best way to do it. I will be building my own after I take the measurements that I need.

I'm very aware of other reason for bump stops. I've never denied that. I only stated a Body lift allows for tire clearance without limiting the suspension like a bump stop. And we are only talking about small suspension lifts in the 2"-3" range. Those shocks are not that much longer than stock.

If you look at the stock shock lengths and what is typically recomended for a 1"-3" lift, more than a 1" Bump stop is not normally needed for the shock length. A longer bump stop is typically needed because of tire clearance. We can dig up some numbers for stock shock length (I think in the 14.6" colapsed range), and the length of shocks for lift kits and see how they compare and how much bump stop is needed.


Personally, I do not see the benifit of limiting the suspension more than 1" to allow for longer shocks. Requiring more than that just because of shocks would be counter productive. Esspecially when you consider how little comression they have stock. Really, to do it properly if you need/want that much more droop (longer shock), you should relocate the upper shock mount to allow for a longer shock. That way you can retain as much compression as possible.
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Unread 03-09-2013, 02:08 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SLADE View Post
I'm very aware of other reason for bump stops. I've never denied that. I only stated a Body lift allows for tire clearance without limiting the suspension like a bump stop.

If you look at the stock shock lengths and what is typically recomended for a 1"-3" lift, more than a 1" Bump stop is not normally needed for the shock length. A longer bump stop is typically needed because of tire clearance. We can dig up some numbers for stock shock length (I think in the 14.6" colapsed range), and the length of shocks for lift kits and see how they compare and how much bump stop is needed.


Personally, I do not see the benifit of limiting the suspension more than 1" to allow for longer shocks. Requiring more than that just because of shocks would be counter productive. Really, to do it properly if you need/want that much more droop (longer shock), you should relocate the upper shock mount to allow for a longer shock. That way you can retain as much compression as possible.
seriously just get out of here, you're feeding bad and confusing advice to a lot of people.
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Unread 03-09-2013, 02:13 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by XJ-Tim View Post
seriously just get out of here, you're feeding bad and confusing advice to a lot of people.
Whats confusing about this?....

Answer a couple questions for me....

How does extending a bump stop 2" NOT take away from the available suspension travel?

If by using a body lift, you are able to reduce that same bump stop to a 1" extended bump stop (instead of 2"), would you gain travel, lose travel, or would the amount of travel stay the same?

Ive given you some links ("sources" that you asked for) to help you understand the relationship between a bodylift, tire size, and Bump stops. In those "sources", it also accounted for flat fenders and the additional clearance they provide and how the flat fenders effect the lenght of the bump stop for a tire size.
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Unread 03-09-2013, 02:42 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SLADE View Post

Whats confusing about this?....

Answer a couple questions for me....

How does extending a bump stop 2" NOT take away from the available suspension travel?

If by using a body lift, you are able to reduce that same bump stop to a 1" extended bump stop (instead of 2"), would you gain travel, lose travel, or would the amount of travel stay the same?

Ive given you some links ("sources" that you asked for) to help you understand the relationship between a bodylift, tire size, and Bump stops. In those "sources", it also accounted for flat fenders and the additional clearance they provide and how the flat fenders effect the lenght of the bump stop for a tire size.
Let's just stop talking about bumpstops. If you have nothing to add that pertains to my question just stop. Nobody cares about bumpstops. Go start a bump stop thread if you need to get something off your chest. Honestly, it's gone way too far now.
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Unread 03-09-2013, 02:49 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by wranglerboy13 View Post
Let's just stop talking about bumpstops. If you have nothing to add that pertains to my question just stop. Nobody cares about bumpstops. Go start a bump stop thread if you need to get something off your chest. Honestly, it's gone way too far now.

Really didn't think it would be that hard for some to understand. Everything we have discussed pertains directly to your question.
Good luck with your Jeep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SLADE View Post
A 1" Body lift is a great addition to a mild lift. It will give you a little added clearance without limiting suspension travel like a suspension lift does. They also allow you to get just a little more lift without going over a suspension tipping point. They also help kep the stock feel in the steering and handling.

They do have some benifits that you won't get out of a suspension lift.

I would not consider anything more than a 1.25" body lift though.
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Unread 03-09-2013, 04:14 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SLADE View Post
With a suspension lift, You do not gain any additional clearance under compression unless a bump stop is added/extended. A body lift increases the distance from the body to the bump stop without taking away from the suspension travel.
this is mostly correct....

Quote:
Originally Posted by SLADE View Post
By adding bump stops, you are eliminating compression regardless how much "DROOP" you allow for.
this is wrong.

For example, I've added bumpstop extensions to my suspension, yet I have more uptravel and downtravel than stock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SLADE View Post
Suspension lifts actually use up "DROOP". When you put a 3" lift coil in place of a stock coil, you are 3" closer to reaching your maximum droop at ride height. You could "gain" the full potential of the "DROOP" out of your suspension without a single inch of lift.
huh? this makes no sense.

Whether you're at stock height, 3" of lift or 8" of lift, you have some amount of uptravel and downtravel.

If you extend the bumpstops 3" with a 3" lift, then you gain no travel over stock. However, if you extend the bumpstops 1.5" with a 3" lift, then you gain 1.5" of uptravel over stock.

Let's suppose a stock suspension, utilizing 8" travel shocks. Let's assume a 50/50 travel ratio, which is the most common general trail & road use setup. That means at ride height, the Jeep has 4" uptravel, 4" downtravel. Now, if you lift this Jeep, utilizing a 3" lift with 11" travel shocks, and you determine you need 1.5" bumpstop extensions to prevent the shocks from bottoming out, prevent tire rub, and prevent suspension interferences - then you have 5.5" uptravel, and 5.5" downtravel. That's a 1.5" gain in both directions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SLADE View Post
A "proper" suspension will still have atleast 4" - 5" of compression at ride height.
this is a rather ridiculous blanket statement. Stock TJ's (and probably JK's) have about 4" uptravel. Most other vehicles have much less. Some even ride on the jounce bumpers, with little uptravel by Wrangler comparisons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SLADE View Post
I'm very aware of other reason for bump stops. I've never denied that. I only stated a Body lift allows for tire clearance without limiting the suspension like a bump stop. And we are only talking about small suspension lifts in the 2"-3" range. Those shocks are not that much longer than stock.
bumpstops don't limit your suspension's capabilities, they protect it.

the order of bumpstop necessity is as follows:
1. prevent suspension interferences (such as track bar vs diff or other hard component collisions)
2. prevent shocks from bottoming out.
3. prevent coil bind
4. prevent tire rub

notice tire rub is last. If you can't satisfy the rest, then the tires are the least of your concern.

Clearance for tire size is a matter of the distance from the hub center to the fender/steel at full bump & full flex. You can increase this distance in many ways - bumpstop extensions, remove flares (if you're worried about tires rubbing plastic), cut/modify steel/body panels, and move the body away from the frame (body lift). A body lift MAY allow you to run a slightly larger tire size by providing additional clearance, but it doesn't change the necessities of a properly designed suspension.

You still need to prevent the shocks from bottoming out, avoid coil bind, and prevent major suspension interferences....and if you add much more bumpstop extension than that, you're doing it wrong. You should choose the tire size which fits within those constraints.

Having big tires and crap suspension just proves ignorance, whether you have a BL or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SLADE View Post
If you look at the stock shock lengths and what is typically recomended for a 1"-3" lift, more than a 1" Bump stop is not normally needed for the shock length. A longer bump stop is typically needed because of tire clearance.
why do you want to install a longer bumpstop? what's wrong with the stock jounce bumper? why not use bumpstop extensions instead?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SLADE View Post
Personally, I do not see the benifit of limiting the suspension more than 1" to allow for longer shocks. Requiring more than that just because of shocks would be counter productive. Esspecially when you consider how little comression they have stock.
What are you considering "little" compression/uptravel?

I'm no JK expert, but stock TJs are about 4" uptravel, and I believe JK's are the same if not more....which is within your previous statement of proper compression/uptravel requirements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SLADE View Post
How does extending a bump stop 2" NOT take away from the available suspension travel?
because if you have 4" of lift, that 2" bumpstop extension still allows for 2" more travel than stock. Of course, you'll use a longer shock...which has a compressed length such that it's nearly fully compressed with that 2" extension, resulting in a gain of downtravel as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SLADE View Post
If by using a body lift, you are able to reduce that same bump stop to a 1" extended bump stop (instead of 2"), would you gain travel, lose travel, or would the amount of travel stay the same?
again, a body lift does not remove the necessity to properly setup your suspension to avoid 1) suspension interferences, 2) bottoming out the shocks, 3) coil binding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SLADE View Post
Ive given you some links ("sources" that you asked for) to help you understand the relationship between a bodylift, tire size, and Bump stops. In those "sources", it also accounted for flat fenders and the additional clearance they provide and how the flat fenders effect the lenght of the bump stop for a tire size.
well, if you're extending bumpstops a bunch because the tires are limiting factor...then your tires are too big.

whether compensating for something lacking in manhood or trying to "look cool" at the mall, the big tires, that don't fit, will not make up for a lack of driving skill or crappy suspension setup. You're better off with proper suspension, smaller tires and better skills.

For anyone interested in good reading on bumpstops, what they do and how they relate to proper suspension setup, here's some good reading (also see signature):
http://www.wranglerforum.com/f5/corr...gth-70047.html
http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f9/4-...l#post15066288

and when talking about "proper" suspension setup, we can even bring into the discussion anti-squat, roll center, coil unseating and other dynamics which greatly effect performance on-road and off...yet these are most often ignored when installing a "lift kit". those things are well beyond this discussion, but if we want to get detailed about it, we'd have to go there as well.

On a TJ, the benefit of a BL is the ability to suck the belly up tighter...high clearance gas tank skids, tummy tucks, MML's, etc. On a JK, the drivetrain is already fairly tucked at frame level. If you guys have a 1" gas tank lift via an aftermarket skid, like us TJ folks have, then I would see the benefit of a BL. If there aren't any component tuck benefits in the JK world, just add the clearance back into the suspension and forget the BL.
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Unread 03-09-2013, 06:28 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wranglerboy13 View Post
Yah I don't think I will be doing a BL. I am curious what 3" lift your going with? I know there are a lot of kits that don't come with a high steer kit but I don't think that really fixes my problem. I want it to handle perfect and I think a high steer kit is how I get it to do that. I think I just need to get over the drilling fear as it will give me the results that I want.
Im going with HD OME 2.5" lift (actually nets 3"), Bilstein 5100's, front and rear adjustable trackbars and im starting with Clayton LCA's. I got this built as a kit through Kolak on this forum and he got me a great deal. I will eventually replace all the control arms but its not necessary right away.

I am going with the LCA's to get the axle in the place it wants to be. with 2.5-3.5" of lift your not really changing the steering geometry enough to have it make a big difference. Will the high steer kit help? Sure, but its not necessarily what you need right away.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberpyrot View Post
is it a plink plink kerrrrdunk? or more of a brrrrrconk doc doc miiiidge pang!!!? or is it a badonk ka donk? if it is the latter its just the normal fat *** of the JK

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Unread 03-09-2013, 06:42 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COLOUXJ View Post

Im going with HD OME 2.5" lift (actually nets 3"), Bilstein 5100's, front and rear adjustable trackbars and im starting with Clayton LCA's. I got this built as a kit through Kolak on this forum and he got me a great deal. I will eventually replace all the control arms but its not necessary right away.

I am going with the LCA's to get the axle in the place it wants to be. with 2.5-3.5" of lift your not really changing the steering geometry enough to have it make a big difference. Will the high steer kit help? Sure, but its not necessarily what you need right away.
I hear "it's not necessary right away" and I get confused. Does that mean if money wasn't an issue than you wouldn't put a high steer kit on or you can live with it. I worry about my girlfriend driving it to be honest. Hopefully she doesn't read jeep forum haha. If there were any kind of driving quirks associated with driving my jeep lifted (flighty steering, bump steer, etc) I wouldnt/shouldn't trust her to drive it and that wouldn't be realistic. I wish I could find someone local to me that has a minimal 3 - 4" lift and see how a "cheap" lift feels and I could go from there. I have no idea how a lifted jk drives haha.
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Unread 03-09-2013, 06:47 PM   #72
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Unread 03-09-2013, 06:57 PM   #73
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If I have a question why can't I ask it? You may know more than me and know more about what I am getting into but it's new to me. If it's bothering you why don't you just stop clicking on the thread...
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Unread 03-09-2013, 07:15 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wranglerboy13 View Post
I hear "it's not necessary right away" and I get confused. Does that mean if money wasn't an issue than you wouldn't put a high steer kit on or you can live with it. I worry about my girlfriend driving it to be honest. Hopefully she doesn't read jeep forum haha. If there were any kind of driving quirks associated with driving my jeep lifted (flighty steering, bump steer, etc) I wouldnt/shouldn't trust her to drive it and that wouldn't be realistic. I wish I could find someone local to me that has a minimal 3 - 4" lift and see how a "cheap" lift feels and I could go from there. I have no idea how a lifted jk drives haha.
The receipt for good steering is to keep the drag link and track bar the same length, parallel and in the same plane. other factors, like caster, come into play as well...

here's an example:


notice how you can hardly see the track bar? it's perfectly behind the drag-link. That's how it's supposed to be.

here's more info from a steering guru (mrblaine on this forum): http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/jeep-...l#post11091762
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Unread 03-09-2013, 07:27 PM   #75
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I realize This thread has really got derailed and i would like to get you back on track. Please advise again what the main purpose is for this Jeep and who will drive it.
To start, if you are going with a 2.5" kit, you don't need to worry about a highsteer kit or new control arms period. New control arms mean new driveshafts.
We have 3 Jeeps, one with TF 2.5" lift and 3.5" springs 35" tires, one with a 2.5" TF spring lift 35" tires, and one all stock with 33" tires.
If you are wondering about on road handling and stability, nice ride and safety stick to the basics. I can pass on my experience if you are interested. 3 Jeeps on the highway 90% of the time, combined mileage of the 3 Jeeps 170,000 miles. At this point all 3 still have stock driveshafts, control arms, track bars, ball joints, factory shocks and tierod ends.
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