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Unread 12-07-2012, 06:40 PM   #91
ncb
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Kill this thread.

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Unread 12-07-2012, 06:47 PM   #92
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^ x2
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Unread 12-07-2012, 07:17 PM   #93
04 RUBI
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ncb View Post
Kill this thread.
Why?

I am unfortunately stuck behind a computer and am sure to get a response from RK trying to get the last word. This is rare that I'm in this situation. Hence the post count.
If you don't like thread, and have nothing to contribute, why are you here?
Seriously, why are you posting in a thread you don't like? Why wouldn't you go elsewhere?
It's like me hopping into my wife's conversation with her friends about shoes. I got nothing to say, so I stay out. Maybe I'm just weird like that.
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Unread 12-07-2012, 08:24 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 04 RUBI View Post
Why?

I am unfortunately stuck behind a computer and am sure to get a response from RK trying to get the last word. This is rare that I'm in this situation. Hence the post count.
If you don't like thread, and have nothing to contribute, why are you here?
Seriously, why are you posting in a thread you don't like? Why wouldn't you go elsewhere?
It's like me hopping into my wife's conversation with her friends about shoes. I got nothing to say, so I stay out. Maybe I'm just weird like that.
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Unread 12-07-2012, 11:31 PM   #95
HOKIES2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RockKrawler View Post
This just in from Chris at OR-Fab. Good guy by the way..

"The hinged will always bear a little bit more load in the way itís designed. Thatís why it has a bit more bracing in the hinge side"

If the hinge side carriers more weight it might be the cause of the lean. But, here is what I am getting at for everyone. Be careful of your loading conditions and order of operations! We build alot of vehicles here..

When you get products, it is like Christmas, tear the packages open, get them on the vehicle as fast as possible! Heck, we do it.. And I am not saying this guy did or did not do it. It is just for information. Anyway, if the lift was installed and everything was verified to be square etc, that is great. Then, you start adding accessories and in this case it could have been a full size spare and swing out tire carrier. When a cantered load like that is added it does a few things; it will lower the end of the vehicle it was added to, but since it is a cantered load, it was raise the other end! So, lets assume it was in the rear for the sake of discussion; the rear of the vehicle went down, so you will get a little axle rotation from the control arms, but the bigger effect in JK's is the track bar will move the axle to the driver's side in the back. The converse effect happens in the front of the vehicle. This disrupts the loading condition on coil springs and can cause issues.

For discussion purposes only, it is best when performing operations like the above, to take a good look at the axle positioning and resquare everything when changing loading conditions. This is best for the vehicle in the long run and we see this happen often to customers who do not take these things into account.

Just food for thought.

RK

I can see the logic but unfortunatley the OR-FAB had zero to do with this. Funny enough I got all of my parts over xmas last year but I did not get finished putting them on until Sep. I got my lift installed in June and I did not get my OR-FAB on until mid Aug. Until it was installed I ran no spare at all and the lean was still present when I contacted Justin in early Aug.

My GF called the shop for me here are my alignments, done after the OR-FAB was installed.

Front Camber
L: -.6
R: .0
Front Caster
L: 5.2
R: 4.9
Front Toe-in
L: .10
R: .10
Cross Camber: -.6
Cross Caster: .2
Total Toe-in: .2
Rear Camber
L: -.7
R: -.3
Rear Toe-in
L: .29
R: .00
Cross Camber: -.4
Total Toe-in: .29
Thrust Angle: .15
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Unread 12-08-2012, 08:41 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 04 RUBI View Post
Why?

I am unfortunately stuck behind a computer and am sure to get a response from RK trying to get the last word. This is rare that I'm in this situation. Hence the post count.
If you don't like thread, and have nothing to contribute, why are you here?
Seriously, why are you posting in a thread you don't like? Why wouldn't you go elsewhere?
It's like me hopping into my wife's conversation with her friends about shoes. I got nothing to say, so I stay out. Maybe I'm just weird like that.
x 3
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Unread 12-08-2012, 08:46 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 04 RUBI View Post
Seriously? Yes, it was you. We talked several times. I keep trying to get out of this conversation, and here we are again. I do notice you don't comment on the more important issues we had. You quote me, but don't address the more important aspects. I'm not an overly sensitive democrat sad about an insult. My gripe was the loss of money trying to fix the problem your gear caused. That money is gone between tows, alignments, etc. It ain't coming back.
Again, I posted to tell OP he wasn't the only one. You keep cherry picking what I have to say to save face while avoiding the other points I have made.
If you are going to reply to me again, please read all my comments. They seem to be ignored.
Again, I do not remember. Sorry. If you want to post up exactly all your areas of concern I will address them one at a time for you. In conversations of that nature, sometimes people and things get heated and things can be stated out of line. I apologized for that if it was you, but that does go both ways. I honestly do not remember it and maybe if you post up your real name and timeframe I can look it up.

Jeremy
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Unread 12-08-2012, 08:52 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HOKIES2010 View Post
I can see the logic but unfortunatley the OR-FAB had zero to do with this. Funny enough I got all of my parts over xmas last year but I did not get finished putting them on until Sep. I got my lift installed in June and I did not get my OR-FAB on until mid Aug. Until it was installed I ran no spare at all and the lean was still present when I contacted Justin in early Aug.

My GF called the shop for me here are my alignments, done after the OR-FAB was installed.

Front Camber
L: -.6
R: .0
Front Caster
L: 5.2
R: 4.9
Front Toe-in
L: .10
R: .10
Cross Camber: -.6
Cross Caster: .2
Total Toe-in: .2
Rear Camber
L: -.7
R: -.3
Rear Toe-in
L: .29
R: .00
Cross Camber: -.4
Total Toe-in: .29
Thrust Angle: .15
The alignment does not look bad. I would prefer to see your caster on the passenger side be more than the driver's side to account for road crown and not vice versa. As long as you do not feel a pull in one direction that should be good.

Have you tried swapping coils side to side to verify if it is a coil or not? If the lean does not follow a coil, then it is in the setup or the way it is accessorized all of which can be combatted. We have gone through this excercise for the public on many other forums.

I was not triing to be acusational with the OR Fab carrier at all. I was simply going by your stated order of operations you stated prior and saying what it "could possibly be".

RK
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Unread 12-08-2012, 09:08 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walle View Post
More pictures of the coils as requested. Please Let me know if you require more.
These pics confirm what I was refering to in my earlier post re: the lower pig tails on those springs being too long. I've seen this exact issue with another mfr's coils. Their fix was to cut the coil ends (pigtails) shorter in production so that they terminated exactly 180 degrees opposite each other.

To reiterate, the front lower spring pad on a JK is the same part side to side, just reversed. As RK (or someone) also replied, this means the springs seat reversed side to side. That is, the lower pigtail faces forward one side, rearward on the other. If the springs are wound and centered concentrically, and if the lower control arms are adjusted to the proper length, AND, if the axle is properly centered side to side, then both springs will stand up straight. However, if the upper and lower pigtails are NOT cut at 180 degress opposite each other (and if you throw in control arm & track bar alignment issues) then the springs will tip & eventually bow. In general, the driver side spring will tip forward, the passenger will tip rearward. As I stated earlier, you can try and fix this yourself by triming a bit off the lower pigtail so that it terminates 180 degress opposite the upper. However, those look to be pretty well shot, I'd go for replacements and try again.

Would add that in my experince with this condition, not only will the springs have bowed like that they'll also sag quite a bit. All the more reason to get a fresh set and start over. Hope this is helpful.
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Unread 12-08-2012, 09:29 AM   #100
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To everyone reading and following along with this thread. We are simply triing to do our best to shed some light and properly tech out a few issues that are shown here. We are keeping it on a technical level and will keep our opinions out of it. If any of you have followed us on other forums, that is generally how we try to post. Can we solve everyone's possible issues? Probably not. That goes both ways. Can we hopefully shed some light on the given situations that might help those of you truely interested, we certainly hope so. We build alot of Jeeps here each and every year! We pride ourselves on being a tech savy company. We can tell you we sell a boat load of products and that being the case, there is always and I mean always potential for error. We do our best to provide what we feel is a high quality product to end consumers. All that being said, for the roots of the two issues at hand, here is our thoughts.

To the OP and anyone interested in coil tech.

Jeep front coil springs are of course unique. The top and bottom end codes are very particular to their setups. ALL aftermarket coil springs have a larger diameter wire than the OEM spring!

So, what does that mean?

That means to exactly match the OEM end code is darn near impossible since the OEM bucket was formed around a smaller wire size. So, for good aftermarket coils up front, you will notice the bottom winding is wound to basically touch the bottom coil. This ensures the bottom coil spring winding is as close as possible to the OEM configuration. The top winding is easy to duplicate for the most part since it is simply a closed end not ground winding.

What should you expect to see if everything is perfectly setup. Typically, you will notice a very slight bow both equal side to side, but oppossite in nature since the coil ends at the axle connection are equal and oppossite! When you pull them out of the vehicle after they have been in place for a while, you will notice a slight bow to them. That does not mean they are bad either. A bad coil is a coil that is grossly out of position and or a coil that continues to fatigue or sag out over a very short period of time.

For the front axle;

If you are light or heavy on caster, or the axle is not perfectly centered side to side, the top coil bucket and bottom coil bucket are out of phase. The coil springs will try to resist showing any bow at first, but over time, they will seat in, take a set and conform to their new conditions. If it is a bad coil, it will again, fatigue out fairly quickly and you will loose alot of lift height!

The rear axle and rear coils are a completely different animal!

The rear axle should always be rotated to correct for pinion angles as it's orientation has nothing to do with driveability. This action immediately puts the rear coil buckets out of phase to one another and you should expect some coil deformation over time unless you correct the bottom coil spring buckets perfectly. We provide coil spring correction wedges in alot of our systems to try to help out that condition, but that does not mean they are perfect either.

A truely bad coil spring is a coil that will fatigue out very quickly. We have seen some people on forums post up about some manufacturer's coils sagging out. If you would like to experience it to see for yourselves what they act like, simply take one of our silica modified coil springs that has been preset and shot peened to minimize stress, strip it, repowder coat it at an extremely high temp and watch what happens. It will initially look like a coil spring, but it won't support hardly any load and very quickly it will look like a slinkly!


To the other gentlemen with the lean.

Your alignment looks good. One reason we look at alignments spec wise, is that is one of many tools that tells us how the coil springs are accepting the loads. An alignment spec sheet does not tell you that the axle is centered front the back or side to side. Like I said, it is one piece of the puzzle.

If you have not swapped the coils side to side, then please do so. If you drive your vehicle around and the lean persists, then at least you can eliminate the coils out of the equation. The following can be possible causes of the condition and it is not limited to the items listed below either. These are just food for thought.

1) The loading conditions on the coils is unbalanced, i.e., they might not be sitting in their buckets properly, the axles might not be perfectly centered, and there are many more things that cause this.

2) It could be an unbalanced load someplace in the vehicle from and accessory or something.

3) You could have an over stressed sway bar that has a permanent bend to it or even OEM sway bar tolerancing pulling the vehicle over. With our systems, this can be adjusted out with our front sway bar links or rear adjustable sway bar link.

4) Bent frame, not in your case, but still can cause it.

The list goes on and on. If you are concerned it is the coil springs, then swap them so you have your answer. It sucks because there are so many possibilities and sometimes the easiest solution is to simply add an inexpensive 3/4" coil spring spacer to one coil to get the vehicle where you want it and call it a day.

Hope that helps all of you who are interested in learning about this kind of stuff...

Have a good weekend.

RK
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Unread 12-08-2012, 09:35 AM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoK66 View Post
These pics confirm what I was refering to in my earlier post re: the lower pig tails on those springs being too long. I've seen this exact issue with another mfr's coils. Their fix was to cut the coil ends (pigtails) shorter in production so that they terminated exactly 180 degrees opposite each other.

To reiterate, the front lower spring pad on a JK is the same part side to side, just reversed. As RK (or someone) also replied, this means the springs seat reversed side to side. That is, the lower pigtail faces forward one side, rearward on the other. If the springs are wound and centered concentrically, and if the lower control arms are adjusted to the proper length, AND, if the axle is properly centered side to side, then both springs will stand up straight. However, if the upper and lower pigtails are NOT cut at 180 degress opposite each other (and if you throw in control arm & track bar alignment issues) then the springs will tip & eventually bow. In general, the driver side spring will tip forward, the passenger will tip rearward. As I stated earlier, you can try and fix this yourself by triming a bit off the lower pigtail so that it terminates 180 degress opposite the upper. However, those look to be pretty well shot, I'd go for replacements and try again.

Would add that in my experince with this condition, not only will the springs have bowed like that they'll also sag quite a bit. All the more reason to get a fresh set and start over. Hope this is helpful.
Our coil spring ends terminate 180 degrees out of phase on the front coils +/- 5 degrees top and bottom.

The first statement can make coils stand up better and it can also make them go the other way if too much is trimmed off. If you are going to do so, we advise to do so with caution. You can also shim a coil's bottom winding too. There are alot of manufacturuer's selling aftermarket front spring pads that are perfectly flat for TJ/LJ/XJ/ZJ/ and JK's that do not have the end code pockets built in them and techniques mentioned above really help get the coils to stand up 100% correct.

RK
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Unread 12-08-2012, 09:47 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RockKrawler View Post
The alignment does not look bad. I would prefer to see your caster on the passenger side be more than the driver's side to account for road crown and not vice versa. As long as you do not feel a pull in one direction that should be good.

Have you tried swapping coils side to side to verify if it is a coil or not? If the lean does not follow a coil, then it is in the setup or the way it is accessorized all of which can be combatted. We have gone through this excercise for the public on many other forums.

I was not triing to be acusational with the OR Fab carrier at all. I was simply going by your stated order of operations you stated prior and saying what it "could possibly be".

RK
Sorry I got off topic

I wasn't saying I have a faulty spring. It could be I don't know. I just had your guys attention in here. I was hoping based of the numbers you might have any other ideas. I know this happens with a lot of other different lifts as well. I love my RK lift for what it is worth.
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Unread 12-08-2012, 09:55 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HOKIES2010 View Post
Sorry I got off topic

I wasn't saying I have a faulty spring. It could be I don't know. I just had your guys attention in here. I was hoping based of the numbers you might have any other ideas. I know this happens with a lot of other different lifts as well. I love my RK lift for what it is worth.
We want you to rule out the coils as that is an easy thing to do. Sorry we jumped to that as this post was about coils, so we assumed that was your concern. We are here to help...

Just about every two years or so we completely revamp our instructions based off things we see on forums like that and other areas where concerns are brought up so we can try to be more helpful right from the beginning of the installation process. This is that year...

RK
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Unread 12-08-2012, 09:00 PM   #104
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Here you go. Cliffnotes.
No, I'm not putting my real name on the interwebs. You want my address too? How about my kid's school schedule.
Maybe I read that wrong, but it sounded like a call out. If I read that wrong, I apologize. If I didn't, you are one weak character individual.
I own a business myself. I have learned that things can go wrong, despite your best intentions, and you do your best to correct it and move on. Not all customers are going to be happy. Such is life. Sometimes you have to suck it up and admit that. It happens.
I would also like to say this is my last post. But,omething tells me I'll have to respond again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 04 RUBI View Post
You're not alone with trouble with RK. Myself and some others I know had numerous problems. I had the 2.5 pro kit and it's gone now. Got a whole bunch of run around from RK myself. The aluminum trackbar was a huge problem for me. Also coils would come unseated and their spring retainers are a joke. My rears sagged very early also and slight bend before I got rid of it.

I'm convinced everyone that is looking at this kit needs to go look at the Metalcloak "lite" kit. It's about $1000 more but for that you get shocks, all 8 arms, rear trackbar, no welding for bracket, bumpstops, MUCH better coils and it rides a hell of a lot better. You don't get a tierod, but I still think is very much worth it. I honestly don't know why Metalcloak doesn't push this kit more.

My .02
Sorry if this was a hijack. Still pissed I guess.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 04 RUBI View Post
Nope. I was the guy on the phone when you thought holding the phone to your chest was the same as putting it on hold. "Tell him to find anyone in the South that isn't an idiot". That might ring a bell. That was after going to several individuals and three offroad shops. Everyone, including me, knew it was the trackbar. You even thought it was made out of the wrong aluminum. After several episodes of death wobble, the joint went bad. That and numerous removals to inspect bushings. When you finally agreed to take it back to inspect, you blamed it on the joint. I got a partial credit.
I was just letting the OP know others have had problems. You've sold tons of these kits. Some are bound to less than perfect. I have since moved on and am very happy now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 04 RUBI View Post
????? Bull****. He's still there. He own's the place.
I tried to back out of this thread, but for some reason you brought me back up. You ignored my post details except for the south thing. I can recall the full story if you want. Do you still have videos of aluminum TB flat lining? Kind of caused some problems (DW). I did love my 60% refund. When you tell a manufacturer what's wrong, they refuse to believe, then they're proved wrong, what's to say? It cost me a lot of money to correct your kit.
Yeah, I'm the guy that I had to call 3 times to convince you that you sent me 8 rrd shocks that I didn't pay for. What's that? $1600. Had to beg for an RA so I didn't become a thief of opportunity . Never before had to convince someone to take their money back. Yup, still never got a simple thank you for being honest. But I did take it in the *** for the track bar. Plus the expenses I stated before. That does piss me off.
Again, leave this stupid Southern hick (from North Dakota courtesy of 3rd Ranger Batallion) out of this. I can add more details to this story if you like Jeremy.
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Originally Posted by RockKrawler View Post
Honestly, I do not remember it, but I deal with a lot of people each and everyday. I do remember and employee stating something very similar to that at one point in time and was repremanded for it, but he is no longer with us as I stated. Are you sure I said it as I am sure given that situation, you must have talked to several people here! Sorry for the situation and I certainly do not remember all the details. In business 99.9% of the experiences are very good, but there are situations that can go wrong and do or we certainly would not be in business.

Jeremy
Quote:
Originally Posted by 04 RUBI View Post
Seriously? Yes, it was you. We talked several times. I keep trying to get out of this conversation, and here we are again. I do notice you don't comment on the more important issues we had. You quote me, but don't address the more important aspects. I'm not an overly sensitive democrat sad about an insult. My gripe was the loss of money trying to fix the problem your gear caused. That money is gone between tows, alignments, etc. It ain't coming back.
Again, I posted to tell OP he wasn't the only one. You keep cherry picking what I have to say to save face while avoiding the other points I have made.
If you are going to reply to me again, please read all my comments. They seem to be ignored.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockKrawler View Post
Again, I do not remember. Sorry. If you want to post up exactly all your areas of concern I will address them one at a time for you. In conversations of that nature, sometimes people and things get heated and things can be stated out of line. I apologized for that if it was you, but that does go both ways. I honestly do not remember it and maybe if you post up your real name and timeframe I can look it up.

Jeremy
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Unread 12-09-2012, 12:21 AM   #105
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Everyone has had their say and itís getting redundant. Letís move on.
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