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Unread 12-05-2012, 04:07 PM   #31
chriswj
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RockKrawler View Post
All rear coils bow to some degree until you take some sort of corrective action. Unlike the front, in the rear you typically set the axle rotation by the pinion angle. When you lift your JK, you have to rotate the axle up, thus rotating the coil spring perches on the axle. Alot of our system include coil spring correction wedges to help correct this, some do not. This also veries by 2 door and 4 door models. Keep that in mind as you guys are doing your builds. There are alot of companies that offer new mounts for the axle as well to help correct any potential issues. So, everyone knows the issues are there and exist. We all do our best to help customers out.


04 RUBI

Was yours the 2.5 Max. Travel Pro, that was also ordered with front uppers and rear uppers in aluminum? You basically wanted to try to do what is now our 2.5 X Factor style system in aluminum before we had it out?

RK
RK what i want to know is why u discontinued the WJ lifts i had about 7 grand to waste that was the first thing i did was go to your website and low and behold you guys had it know more

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Unread 12-05-2012, 04:13 PM   #32
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Personally, I loved the WJ. I owned 2 of them with the 4.7 and had a blast in them. Our growth in other areas swallowed the space we had for the WJ products... Sorry.

If you are still building it, start with two JK 44 axles and build from there unless you want to go with 60's..

JP
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Unread 12-05-2012, 04:17 PM   #33
Walle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red88MJ View Post
Walle,

I am sorry that you had an issue in the first place and are not completely satisfied with the end result of our conversations. I did indeed say to switch the coils to the opposing sides to get your rig on its own weight and so you could verify that the caster and setup is correct. At no time did I ever state this was a permanent fix to your problem or that it would "Magically" go away. We were just trying to get a baseline to go off of. Your jeep is also setup with a different axle under it now than was under it when you discovered this issue. So this is a perfect time to double check things seeing that you may need to make adjustments as it is to ensure your new axle is in spec. You had already taken the vehicle apart and had no way to verify to me that it was setup correctly to begin with, I.E. photos of the setup prior to disassembly of it or a printout actually stating the alignment specs which would have given me more incite to what has been going on with your rig before this axle swap. I also said to contact me after you had swapped the coils to the opposite sides and verified your alignment specs with the new axle in and we go about trying to diagnose the issue. I would hate to send you a new set of coils only to have this problem happen all over again due to an underlying cause that we didn't think about because your vehicle was in pieces. That would not have made you or I happy with our fix. I am willing to work with you to try and get to the bottom of this specific problem if you will allow us to. Please feel free to contact me again at the shop 518-270-9822 to try and sort this out. This is what we do, this is what we love.

Thanks for everyone's time!

Justin
Rock Krawler Suspension


I have tons of pictures of my previous setup. What angles would you like to see? Would this help you in determining if my setup was correct?



Quote:
Originally Posted by RockKrawler View Post
We apologize if it upsets customers, potential customers that we try to verify the setup before making any judgements, but as Justin stated above, blindly warrantiing anything or helping someone out with a discount does someone absolutely no good unless the root cause of the problem is corrected and that is what we strive to do. I was sitting right with Justin when he teched the OP on the phone and Justin asked these very questions to ensure proper setup. The customer did not know about his caster setting and was going to get back to us. To the best of my knowledge, he has not contacted Justin again regarding follow up so we could help him or her out. Instead, they post on here, but still have not corrected any issue.

To the Op, we would like to hear back from you regarding your caster settings so we can properly tech you through everything. Any coil you buy will look better than what you have right now initially. I am sure, even with bad settings the coils looked better when they were new, but eventually the coils will yield to an improper setup and they will bow just like those did. The longer they stay in there like that, the more they will bow and fatigue.

Jeremy


When I spoke with Justin last week, and I did not know what my caster was set to. I found out that my caster was set at 4.2.

I agree that coils will yield to an improper setup, but my setup was good to go. I still am not sure what caused the bowing.

You elude in your post that my setup is incorrect, and replacing the coils won't fix my problem. How do you determine my setup was an improper setup?

Once again, I did not know the coils were bent until removing them. But when I removed them, I removed everything else as well (control arms, trac bars, etc). I did an axle swap and a different lift, so there is way to 'verify' my setup. I never had a problem the lift and was going to put it on my father's JK before he got back from the sandbox until I saw the bent coils.

I did have an issue early on, but I contacted RK immediately. Just like 04 RUBI, the coils consistently came unseated. After talking with someone at RK, I ordered the coil retainers (you should look for a better solution). It sort of kept the coils from unseating, but I think there are better solutions.

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Unread 12-05-2012, 04:24 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walle View Post
I have tons of pictures of my previous setup. What angles would you like to see? Would this help you in determining if my setup was correct?







When I spoke with Justin last week, and I did not know what my caster was set to. I found out that my caster was set at 4.2.

I agree that coils will yield to an improper setup, but my setup was good to go. I still am not sure what caused the bowing.

You elude in your post that my setup is incorrect, and replacing the coils won't fix my problem. How do you determine my setup was an improper setup?

Once again, I did not know the coils were bent until removing them. But when I removed them, I removed everything else as well (control arms, trac bars, etc). I did an axle swap and a different lift, so there is way to 'verify' my setup. I never had a problem the lift and was going to put it on my father's JK before he got back from the sandbox until I saw the bent coils.

I did have an issue early on, but I contacted RK immediately. Just like 04 RUBI, the coils consistently came unseated. After talking with someone at RK, I ordered the coil retainers (you should look for a better solution). It sort of kept the coils from unseating, but I think there are better solutions.

We did not say you had an issue with your setup. We were triing to verify it. We can tech it with you right here on the forum if you would like?

What was your caster and camber setting for each side? When you get an alignment you will get both of them and typically customers show us a print out so we can go over it with them. If you want to send us some more pictures so we can varify coil buckets etc. We can warranty them for you, however, we have to do our dilegence to ensure proper setup and then you are good to go.

Tech-ing things is important to us and we try to be one of the most technically proficient companies in the industry. Another reason we tech so much with customers, is because each and every year, we find areas we can improve our instructions and rev them according to our findngs and things we discuss with customers.

RK
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Unread 12-05-2012, 04:49 PM   #35
Walle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red88MJ View Post
All of our hard parts have a lifetime warranty, being control arms, track bars, brackets and so on. Just as buying a car from a dealership your "wear items" are not technically warranted such as coils, Krawler joints, heims and so on. If there is a defect on our part that causes a components failure we are more than happy and willing to take care of it. There are also personal maintenance of things like jam nuts and setup of a customer's vehicle that are out of our control. We can only instruct people on what to do and when to do it and hope they listen.
Along with that and what I was told on the phone...No warranty for coils, but then this???

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockKrawler View Post
We can warranty them for you, however, we have to do our dilegence to ensure proper setup and then you are good to go.
Thank you for your willingness to warranty the coils now that I have already paid you for a replacement set.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockKrawler View Post
We did not say you had an issue with your setup. We were triing to verify it. We can tech it with you right here on the forum if you would like?

What was your caster and camber setting for each side? When you get an alignment you will get both of them and typically customers show us a print out so we can go over it with them. If you want to send us some more pictures so we can varify coil buckets etc. We can warranty them for you, however, we have to do our dilegence to ensure proper setup and then you are good to go.

Tech-ing things is important to us and we try to be one of the most technically proficient companies in the industry. Another reason we tech so much with customers, is because each and every year, we find areas we can improve our instructions and rev them according to our findngs and things we discuss with customers.

RK
Right Caster - 4.2
Left Caster - 4.2
Right Camber - 0.25
Left Camber - 0.25
Everything was set back to stock specs.

There is no need to 'tech' this for my current setup. My front end is in pieces as the replacement axle requires new ball joints and some other small mods prior to being driven. That is why it is in the shop. I won't drive it until it is ready to be driven just like I didn't drive my JK when I installed the RK lift until it was setup correctly.

Thanks again for your willingness to provide tech support and to warranty the coils. If you would like to do something for me, give me a refund on the coils I just purchased. Justin has my info. Additionally, if you would like, I can send you more pics of the coils, my front axle that has been removed, or previous pictures of my JK.

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Unread 12-05-2012, 05:49 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RockKrawler View Post
All rear coils bow to some degree until you take some sort of corrective action. Unlike the front, in the rear you typically set the axle rotation by the pinion angle. When you lift your JK, you have to rotate the axle up, thus rotating the coil spring perches on the axle. Alot of our system include coil spring correction wedges to help correct this, some do not. This also veries by 2 door and 4 door models. Keep that in mind as you guys are doing your builds. There are alot of companies that offer new mounts for the axle as well to help correct any potential issues. So, everyone knows the issues are there and exist. We all do our best to help customers out.


04 RUBI

Was yours the 2.5 Max. Travel Pro, that was also ordered with front uppers and rear uppers in aluminum? You basically wanted to try to do what is now our 2.5 X Factor style system in aluminum before we had it out?

RK
Nope. I was the guy on the phone when you thought holding the phone to your chest was the same as putting it on hold. "Tell him to find anyone in the South that isn't an idiot". That might ring a bell. That was after going to several individuals and three offroad shops. Everyone, including me, knew it was the trackbar. You even thought it was made out of the wrong aluminum. After several episodes of death wobble, the joint went bad. That and numerous removals to inspect bushings. When you finally agreed to take it back to inspect, you blamed it on the joint. I got a partial credit.
I was just letting the OP know others have had problems. You've sold tons of these kits. Some are bound to less than perfect. I have since moved on and am very happy now.
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Unread 12-05-2012, 10:33 PM   #37
NYGLT56
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[quote="Walle"]

I agree that coils will yield to an improper setup, but my setup was good to go. I still am not sure what caused the bowing. /[QUOTE]

Bad coils, sounds like your setup was fine minus the faulty coils, currie won't do that to you.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Walle
You elude in your post that my setup is incorrect, and replacing the coils won't fix my problem. How do you determine my setup was an improper setup?
He can't. He won't visibly see it in person and inspect it to determine if your setup is "incorrect" it's in the fine details. Unless he goes under your jeep and measures out angles and such, he has no business determining if your setup is "incorrect".

IMO RK, you need to service this man's coils, it would speak volumes about your customer service. It'd be a shame to lose many, many customers over 200$.
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Unread 12-06-2012, 04:51 AM   #38
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Lol
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Unread 12-06-2012, 06:26 AM   #39
paul84043
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I only have a couple of comments.

To the OP: How long had those coils been on your rig?
Was this installed from stock? (no other mods before the lift)

To RK: Running a business is tough, even in the best of times. Reputation is everything and once you lose sight of that... start packing your bags.
Maybe you just work there and don't care, maybe you do care, I can't tell.. but you just had at least three members here write you off. And if there were any others teetering on the verge....guess what... 4 lifts = $5000 to $7000.
Even if you have to make up a "let me talk to my manager......yeah, we don't normally do this, but we'll cover your springs this time, can you send them back to us so we can examine them?". $200. ?
Obvioulsy there was a miscommunication.... Right or wrong, the customer should NEVER hang up that phone angry.
If this is something that happens all the time, then put a disclaimer that makes people aware of it ahead of time..
I'm just wondering how a stock JK can be "setup wrong". There were no warnings, disclaimers, or measurements in my install guide. Remove springs, install springs. I'm kind of assuming that's what the OP did. Haven't got confirmation of that, but I would imagine that's how it went.

I'm glad that you chimed in to state your side of things... That IS something.
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Unread 12-06-2012, 07:42 AM   #40
Walle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paul84043
I only have a couple of comments.

To the OP: How long had those coils been on your rig?
Was this installed from stock? (no other mods before the lift)
.
The lift was installed at the beginning of May. I think it was the second weekend of May. So, they were on maybe 6 months.

The only mod before the lift was the aFe y-pipe. No suspension mods or drivetrain mods. I kept the stock 32" tires on it for a couple months before going up to 37s.
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Unread 12-06-2012, 07:58 AM   #41
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Our reputation is important to us, of course.

Some people do not like the fact that we do not blindly warranty items like this and take offense to it. However, we feel in the big picture of things it is the right thing to do. This is a very minor case and we stand behind the fact that our coil springs are high quality coils, made of silica modified wire, preset and made in the states due to the quality restraints we have on them.

To the OP, there was no reason to buy coils as your discussion has not even been completed with us yet. All we ask for in this case is proof of proper alignment with an alignment sheet print out and we get it taken care of.

What people do not realize is that alot of alignment shops when touching a lifted application set the tow, center the wheel and call it a day. They will rarely ever adjust a set of control arms to ensure it the caster is proper. So, of course we require varification and if we find the customer has it set incorrectly, in the long run they will be better of.

We deal with 100's of calls a day regarding tech support and alot of times it does not involve our products. There are certain times the customer is going to get an answer that they do not want to hear, but we all have responsibilities. Even when a customer has an issue that is their responsibility, we generally provide them with the corrective product at cost, help them understand what was wrong and in general, everyone is better for it.


04 RUBI That gentleman is no longer with us after how he handled a few customers and is now in the South. That was a comment made by someone that stuck out in the tech department and alot of us were like, did he really just say that? Irony. We apologize for that.

With the digital age and ease of passing information, all we require in a situation like this is a simple digital image of the alignment print out, a few digital images of the front axle positioning in the vehicle so we can make sure it is not grossly off and then we take care of the customer. You can get a good alignment spec wise from an axle that is grossly out of position. The alignment machines do not care if an axle is perfectly centered left to right or front to back, but the coil springs do.

I think the thing that upset Justin the most was that he was not done with this process and then the link to this was sent to him so he was frustrated as he was not even given the opportunity to finish up with the customer.

RK
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Unread 12-06-2012, 08:04 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walle View Post
Has anyone else had this problem?

I was told by RK's Technical specialist that I just need to swap sides, and they will magically straighten. Is this correct?
Even looking at this image of the coils, you should expect to see a slight bow to each coil if everything is installed correctly no matter who's coils you use. How ever, they should be fairly symetrical. You are showing one coil bow quite a bit more than the other which typically means something is off someplace. No matter what, as soon as you go with a lifted coil, the manufacturer had to increase the wire diameter of the coil itself. The OEM coil spring buckets and their end codes were designed for a specific wire diameter that has now been changed and made larger. This pushes the coil slightly and thus createing a slight amount of coil spring bowing. Since the coil buckets side to side are mirrored, if everything in the vehicle is perfect, the bow should be mirrored. This is why Justin mentioned to possibly swap them because it would provide further information to both us and the OP as they are mirrored, sometimes if it was a setup issue, it does straighten the coil back up right as long as the coil has not taken a major set from being left that way too long.

That is simply an FYI. Hope it helps so no matter who's products you go with, you get an understanding of coil spring positioning and how it can be effected.

RK
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Unread 12-06-2012, 08:19 AM   #43
NYGLT56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RockKrawler
Our reputation is important to us, of course.

Some people do not like the fact that we do not blindly warranty items like this and take offense to it. However, we feel in the big picture of things it is the right thing to do. This is a very minor case and we stand behind the fact that our coil springs are high quality coils, made of silica modified wire, preset and made in the states due to the quality restraints we have on them.

To the OP, there was no reason to buy coils as your discussion has not even been completed with us yet. All we ask for in this case is proof of proper alignment with an alignment sheet print out and we get it taken care of.

What people do not realize is that alot of alignment shops when touching a lifted application set the tow, center the wheel and call it a day. They will rarely ever adjust a set of control arms to ensure it the caster is proper. So, of course we require varification and if we find the customer has it set incorrectly, in the long run they will be better of.

We deal with 100's of calls a day regarding tech support and alot of times it does not involve our products. There are certain times the customer is going to get an answer that they do not want to hear, but we all have responsibilities. Even when a customer has an issue that is their responsibility, we generally provide them with the corrective product at cost, help them understand what was wrong and in general, everyone is better for it.

04 RUBI That gentleman is no longer with us after how he handled a few customers and is now in the South. That was a comment made by someone that stuck out in the tech department and alot of us were like, did he really just say that? Irony. We apologize for that.

With the digital age and ease of passing information, all we require in a situation like this is a simple digital image of the alignment print out, a few digital images of the front axle positioning in the vehicle so we can make sure it is not grossly off and then we take care of the customer. You can get a good alignment spec wise from an axle that is grossly out of position. The alignment machines do not care if an axle is perfectly centered left to right or front to back, but the coil springs do.

I think the thing that upset Justin the most was that he was not done with this process and then the link to this was sent to him so he was frustrated as he was not even given the opportunity to finish up with the customer.

RK
"Some people" is an understatement. It's not the right thing to do, it's the company's reputation on the line. And if your stuff is so high quality why does it bend?
Im sure If I were to call Currie or even Rough Country for that matter, they would warranty with an apology. Seems like an easy fix. Even for a small fee (shipping)


Another question if all coils bend, why haven't mine or many other JF members bend yet?
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Unread 12-06-2012, 08:28 AM   #44
RockKrawler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYGLT56 View Post
"Some people" is an understatement. It's not the right thing to do, it's the company's reputation on the line. And if your stuff is so high quality why does it bend?
Im sure If I were to call Currie or even Rough Country for that matter, they would warranty with an apology. Seems like an easy fix. Even for a small fee (shipping)


Another question if all coils bend, why haven't mine or many other JF members bend yet?
Please post pics of your front coils from the side of each coil.

The right thing to do from our stand point is to verify everything is correct and then go from there. The last thing we or anyone would want to do is blindly send out something to someone to correct and issue and have the root cause of the problem still be there!

To all of you;

If you were to be in a manufacturer's position and had items that required customer intervention of some form or another, would you just handle it blindly? How would you like to see it handled? What we have seen from experience, is that just blindly warrantiing any item generally puts a customer in a worse position in the long run which is what no one wants to see. It is easy to say for many "RK just warranty the coils", but what if something really went wrong for this gentleman and we had an opportunity to catch it prior to that event.

To the OP, have you provided Justin with the images as requested?

If this was a bent control arm and you were the original purchaser, a simple digital image and this would be done. However, like we stated above, where customer intervention is required, we investigate first and warranty once everything is varified.


RK
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Unread 12-06-2012, 08:30 AM   #45
Walle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RockKrawler

Even looking at this image of the coils, you should expect to see a slight bow to each coil if everything is installed correctly no matter who's coils you use. How ever, they should be fairly symetrical. You are showing one coil bow quite a bit more than the other which typically means something is off someplace. No matter what, as soon as you go with a lifted coil, the manufacturer had to increase the wire diameter of the coil itself. The OEM coil spring buckets and their end codes were designed for a specific wire diameter that has now been changed and made larger. This pushes the coil slightly and thus createing a slight amount of coil spring bowing. Since the coil buckets side to side are mirrored, if everything in the vehicle is perfect, the bow should be mirrored. This is why Justin mentioned to possibly swap them because it would provide further information to both us and the OP as they are mirrored, sometimes if it was a setup issue, it does straighten the coil back up right as long as the coil has not taken a major set from being left that way too long.

That is simply an FYI. Hope it helps so no matter who's products you go with, you get an understanding of coil spring positioning and how it can be effected.

RK
Here...another angle of the coils and more pics of my JK

And if Justin wasn't finished...then why did he take my CC info and ship me replacement coils????

As far as the alignment printout, I do not have one. Just like any other competent Jeep owner with the proper tools, I set my alignment along worth the help of fellow Jeep owners that align their Jeeps.

Even IF it was [I]slightly[/] off, the coils shouldn't bend that much.
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