Post-repair DW update: symptoms, repairs and resulting effects - JeepForum.com
Search  
Sign Up   Today's Posts
User: Pass: Remember?
Advertise Here
Jeep Home Jeep Forum Jeep Classifieds Jeep Registry JeepSpace Jeep Reviews Jeep Gallery Jeep Clubs Jeep Groups Jeep Videos Jeep Events Jeep Articles
Go Back JeepForum.com > Models > Jeep Wrangler Forums > JK Wrangler Technical Forum > Post-repair DW update: symptoms, repairs and resulting effects

Stainless Steel Door Hinge PinsPoly Door Hinge BushingsFS: 2007-2013 Jeep Wrangler "HALO" Angel Eye Kit

Reply
Unread 11-01-2013, 06:17 PM   #1
joeorzechowski
Member
 
joeorzechowski's Avatar
2010 JK Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: ellington, ct
Posts: 156
Post-repair DW update: symptoms, repairs and resulting effects

Over the summer, the rig became loose when I took her off road for a bit. The looseness gradually deteriorated over the rest of the summer into a steering wheel vibration in the fall, then picked up to shaking on occasions over continued road use. When the shaking continued for too long when driving, the DW started as if it built up to an eruption, causing a pull over. I only sustained DW at low speeds. Pre-repair the rig became not usable due to DW and its possibility.

On my rig, the stock tie rod adjusting sleeve was frozen. A very common Jeep JK problem that posters may wish to address with a check or repair. Issue with the threads, could not be aligned. I never inspected the tie rod ends. Replaced with a new Synergy tie rod as per Planman.

Here is Planman's thread: http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f96/d...bbles-1052221/

This caused the DW to be pushed down, suppressed. No more DW, but the rig was still unsafe to drive. The rig felt real loose in the handling, plus steering wheel vibrations were still there, just not as much front end vibration in the rig. The front of the rig felt more supported, huge difference but not solved. No DW per se, but I figured I needed to replace the stock ball joints and did not want to damage anything by testing the rig too long with the new tie rod until that was done. The rig still felt loose, but you could certainly feel the difference. I did not drive for long. It was still bad in terms of possible or potential DW, but improved a noticeable degree. Continued vibration in the front end back to the steering wheel, but no DW.

Replaced the stock ball joints with Synergy uppers and lowers. Tested for 20 minutes at 40 or below. The rig is driveable, but still has issues. The steering wheel vibration is still there, humming at higher speeds in your hands, but the front of the rig feels well supported. It may have solved it. I am concerned it only masked it, suppressed it, just as the tie rod did. But maybe it is still there.

I need to flip the drag link still, I have the JKS front trackbar support kit and sector shaft brace. I have the original trackbar with new hardware in the JKS kit as per Planman's suggestion.

I guess I will do both trackbars, the teraflex kit with frame brace and flip drag link. The lack of support in the rear trackbar is an issue. They aligned with ball joints, the tracking stinks- but that may be bumpsteer- a function of the new ball joints. The rear end feels loose. I am doing the rear trackbar support kit.

With the JKS kit, I need to make sure something does not hit the pillow block on full stuff as per JKS tech.

Tires just rotated and balanced.

The main problem now is with the steering wheel. I am ultra-keen to notice vibration in the wheel when driving now that I had the DW. I can't tell if the vibration is about the same as when it came off the build. It probably is, but I am not totally sure. The rig was driveable under 40 mph ok today, but that mini-vibration is still there, especially at higher speeds. 2 hands on the wheel, avoiding bumps for now.

If the ball joints need breaking in, how should the rig then feel?
What differences in rig steering and handling will occur with the flip drag link?

Rig now is not loose per se, just mini-steering wheel vibration, less than before the new tie rod, and still less after the new ball joints. May be normal. Since that got worse along drives and ultimately precipitated DW, I am hesitant to use it and get in that situation again. Handles ok. I am feeling ultra hard bumpsteer?

Still no highways.

joeorzechowski is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-01-2013, 06:31 PM   #2
JTPhoto
Web Wheeler
 
JTPhoto's Avatar
2008 JK Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: South Gillies Ontario
Posts: 1,822
If the front Trackbar support raised the Trackbar end you will have issues with bumpsteer and overall jumpiness on the road.
Check if your Trackbar and draglink are parallel if not you need the flip. If they are level and you do a flip you will have to also change the lower Trackbar bracket.
Check with the company that manufactured your lower Trackbar bracket and ask them if the flipped draglink is required or suggested to go with their bracket.
__________________
^^Jeff^^
2008 Black and Khaki Sahara Unlimited. Auto, Tow pkg, Dual Tops, MyGig, Trax-Lok rear diff. 3.5" Rock Krawler fr springs, rear TeraFlex 2.5 BB, 35x12.50x17 Pitbull Rockers on Blackrock Viper Alloys, Flex-o-lite trans cooler, Mr Grille billet grille inserts, AEV Prem Bumper ETC.. AND a Locked and Lifted Honda Foreman for when the trails get real tight
JTPhoto is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-01-2013, 06:54 PM   #3
joeorzechowski
Member
 
joeorzechowski's Avatar
2010 JK Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: ellington, ct
Posts: 156
Trackbar was raised by the kit, issues with jumpiness noted pre and post repairs. Bumpsteer was never that bad, now its an issue. After the support kit went in, it helped the rig ton, felt like a bit like a "more caster" lca adjustment. It feels like the DW is being suppressed, pushed directly down by new steel components, but not resolved maybe 100%, since the steering wheel mini-vibration is still there.

You see, Planman and others expertly advise to fix DW, not mask it with a steering stabilizer or some other beeferier component install. I need to make sure it was not just masked. That is now the central issue due to the presence of minor steering wheel vibration, but held down and in check. Still working thru the master checklist I guess. Yes, I know its a Jeep but the post-repair difficulty is ensuring its not just a mask-job.

Tire pressure is even and at 30 or so.

JKS said you could flip with their kit. I have been checking on what is meant by parallel all along. I am researching whether its left-right parallel, up-down parallel or parallel to each other. The trackbar is alot higher than the drag link is lower. Both are even to each other across left to right, driver's side to passenger side. Its just the drag link is lower and more towards the front bumper. I will post a pic by Sun am for assistance with whether its parallel, but with a new thread. I have been researching the parallel issue all along as a check. They do appear otherwise basically parallel and level, but for the drag link being 3 inches lower and a bit farther towards the front.
joeorzechowski is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-01-2013, 07:24 PM   #4
RockyClymer
RedRock4Wheeler
 
RockyClymer's Avatar
2008 JK Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Colorado
Posts: 4,409
Drag link and track need to be parallel end to end as seen from front.
__________________
08 JK 23S - Colorado Jeep Club No. 204
Too much to list - see my profile for details on build
NRA Life member
"It takes a special kind of stupid to believe criminals will follow gun laws."
I do not consider myself a smartass. I point out the obvious, search for the truth, and speak fluent sarcasm. I am, by experience, an accomplished curmudgeon.
RockyClymer is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-01-2013, 07:25 PM   #5
JTPhoto
Web Wheeler
 
JTPhoto's Avatar
2008 JK Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: South Gillies Ontario
Posts: 1,822
Yes draglink and Trackbar parallel to each other .. Looking from the front they are both at the same angle from left to right. I had a similar situation that I induced on purpose to see what difference component on their own would make. My process was basically to change one component at a time where possible, then drive for a few days and see what effects they had.

I did require new balljoints, Trackbar, shocks, and decided while I was at it do a draglink flip as this is suggested by all lift manufacturers for lifts 3.5" and up. There were little wobbles and some bumpsteer before changing anything.

First off I knew parts were wearing as I have 145,000 on all original components so Synergy ball joints, Rancho shocks, TeraFlex Trackbar, AEV Geo brackets and draglink flip were ordered.

I installed AEV geo brackets first and drove for a week to identify how these brackets actually change the ride quality without changing anything else. They are awesome BTW but that's another story.

Next was only 1/2 of the draglink flipkit which is just the lower Trackbar relocation bracket . WHOOW Holy bumpsteer Batman. Not fun. But I don't have a 7/8" drill bit to drill out the knuckle yet for the draglink flip.

So now let's change the Trackbar . Hmmm still have Bumpsteer.

Ok now Change shocks and adjust them to 5 front 6 rear. Bumpsteer still there.

Drove a day readjusted the shocks to 2f 3r to soften the side. WHOOW watch those floaty bumps bumpsteer is now borderline dangerous. Stiffen them shocks up to 9. Bumpsteer now manageable again. That just qualified that the soft suspension shows that the geometry in front end is not correct.

Still waiting on a drill bit so changed out balljoints. Ok that's not what I expected. Due to no play in the ball joints bumpsteer seems worse yet again.

Finally, got a 7/8" drill bit, drilled out the knuckle and installed the flipped draglink. Awesome, no more bumpsteer and actually steers easier then it has in along time. I can now drive down the highway at 70mph and take my hands off the wheel.

Last test set shocks down on 2 front and rear for soft ride and look for those floaty bumps. Voila perfect.
__________________
^^Jeff^^
2008 Black and Khaki Sahara Unlimited. Auto, Tow pkg, Dual Tops, MyGig, Trax-Lok rear diff. 3.5" Rock Krawler fr springs, rear TeraFlex 2.5 BB, 35x12.50x17 Pitbull Rockers on Blackrock Viper Alloys, Flex-o-lite trans cooler, Mr Grille billet grille inserts, AEV Prem Bumper ETC.. AND a Locked and Lifted Honda Foreman for when the trails get real tight
JTPhoto is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-01-2013, 07:35 PM   #6
JTPhoto
Web Wheeler
 
JTPhoto's Avatar
2008 JK Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: South Gillies Ontario
Posts: 1,822
So I am not saying definitively that this will solve your problems with vibs but may be part of it. You may be able to find some similarities in my findings.
Those vibs are still sounding like tire/wheel related. Did you have the tires RoadForce balanced or just traditional balance.

Worn or bent driveshaft or joints will also cause vibes and shakes.
__________________
^^Jeff^^
2008 Black and Khaki Sahara Unlimited. Auto, Tow pkg, Dual Tops, MyGig, Trax-Lok rear diff. 3.5" Rock Krawler fr springs, rear TeraFlex 2.5 BB, 35x12.50x17 Pitbull Rockers on Blackrock Viper Alloys, Flex-o-lite trans cooler, Mr Grille billet grille inserts, AEV Prem Bumper ETC.. AND a Locked and Lifted Honda Foreman for when the trails get real tight
JTPhoto is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-01-2013, 07:56 PM   #7
joeorzechowski
Member
 
joeorzechowski's Avatar
2010 JK Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: ellington, ct
Posts: 156
Ok that all good. My research revealed flipping the drag link could be part of it, returns rig to a stock steering feel, the steering angle goes back and the "lifted steering feel" reduces.

I don't know roadforce or regular. I may check. I had to call many places to find one that balances 36.6's.

New front driveshaft is in. I took note of the vibrations before and after and that may not be it.

Looking from the front they are both real level with one another, just not at the same height. Parallel is not an issue.

Those vibes are in fact feeling wheel and tire related. Its the same exact vibes the whole time, first reduced a bit with the tie rod, then reduced to minor with the u/l ball joints. Will continue testing since these same exact vibes creeped up before while driving, culminating in a DW climax and I don't want it creeping up ever again. The ball joints need to be broken in over 500 miles or so. Toe in at 1/16th was the order. I am researching what unit bearings are. Tires have 3k.

I am maxed out at 65 highway. Post build could never go higher. It will be the teraflex flip kit with frame brace, rear trackbar brace, maybe a new front trackbar. JKS said I could still flip it with their trackbar kit installed. That bit is like $110. Just a quick note: it may be ok to operate- we shall see.
joeorzechowski is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-01-2013, 08:24 PM   #8
JTPhoto
Web Wheeler
 
JTPhoto's Avatar
2008 JK Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: South Gillies Ontario
Posts: 1,822
Ok RoadForce balance will identify whether or not a tire or wheel has gone out of round.

Do you have another set of wheels and tires available to use/borrow to totally prove or dismiss the tires/wheels from the equation.
__________________
^^Jeff^^
2008 Black and Khaki Sahara Unlimited. Auto, Tow pkg, Dual Tops, MyGig, Trax-Lok rear diff. 3.5" Rock Krawler fr springs, rear TeraFlex 2.5 BB, 35x12.50x17 Pitbull Rockers on Blackrock Viper Alloys, Flex-o-lite trans cooler, Mr Grille billet grille inserts, AEV Prem Bumper ETC.. AND a Locked and Lifted Honda Foreman for when the trails get real tight
JTPhoto is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-01-2013, 08:35 PM   #9
joeorzechowski
Member
 
joeorzechowski's Avatar
2010 JK Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: ellington, ct
Posts: 156
No, but I am contacting the tire center I had do it two weeks ago to see what kind they had. My Jeep dealership and several major tire centers around here would not balance 36.6's. No machine big enough, same with my 4x4 guy. I found one major tire center here that did.

I am still attempting to resolve with testing if the steering wheel vibes are "post-lift back to normal" or just a mask job. Its definitely the same vibe just pushed down, with the front suspension feel totally back to the way it was post-build. We shall see; I noticed alot of other differences with the tracking- but that could be new ball joint related. The rear trackbar now needs support- that is more noticeable for some reason. The odds of DW appear minimal, but I think the wheels and tires are ok. It could have been a balance issue the whole time. Found a nice roadforce with straightalk service locater here. http://www.gsp9700.com/search/FindLocations.cfm
joeorzechowski is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-01-2013, 08:48 PM   #10
73azbronco
Registered User
2013 JK Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 510
Ditto the roadforce balance, night and day with end result.
73azbronco is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-01-2013, 10:36 PM   #11
planman
Thanks to all Mod erators
 
planman's Avatar
2007 JK Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Billings, Montana
Posts: 1,356
If your ball joints were pretty bad, installing new ones may have slightly changed your alignment. It would be worth it to double check your toe-in.
planman is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-02-2013, 03:09 PM   #12
joeorzechowski
Member
 
joeorzechowski's Avatar
2010 JK Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: ellington, ct
Posts: 156
I had an alignment with the ball joint install and had them set the toe in 1/16th. Two 30 minute highway drives today. The steering is ultra sloppy, the steering angle is ultra sharp, there is a good inch of play in the steering wheel. The car is a bit unsafe at highway speeds. The DW and vibes appear resolved ok.

I am doing a front trackbar to replace stock, rear trackbar and a support brace back there, flip drag link. Then the balance. If that does not work I am increasing the caster off 4.6 or so now. If that does not work then I will crank down on the worm bearing a bit. If all that does not work then I am lowering the rig by removing the spacer and putting 35's on since after that I don't know what to do.

I will raise the rear trackbar with a jks support brace to do the flip right, as some expert posters have suggested is needed.
joeorzechowski is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-02-2013, 05:24 PM   #13
brianjw
Registered User
2012 JK Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Hillsboro, Or
Posts: 1,364
The dead feel in the steering wheel could well be the stock front track bar. If it isn't rigid (the stock one is anything but), the axle just shifts under the jeep with small steering inputs without turning the wheels. Also, road irregularities cause the front to wander around because the frame is shifting over the axle while the drag link is stationary, and it's indirectly steering.

That's why I have said so many times on this forum that a good track bar up front is such an important part of putting a jk together.
brianjw is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-02-2013, 06:59 PM   #14
motoguy1251
Registered User
2012 JK Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Big Rapids, Michigan
Posts: 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianjw View Post
The dead feel in the steering wheel could well be the stock front track bar. If it isn't rigid (the stock one is anything but), the axle just shifts under the jeep with small steering inputs without turning the wheels. Also, road irregularities cause the front to wander around because the frame is shifting over the axle while the drag link is stationary, and it's indirectly steering.

That's why I have said so many times on this forum that a good track bar up front is such an important part of putting a jk together.
And might I add the correct 9/16 bolt as well. Added them to my already installed rock krawler track bar and it felt way better.
motoguy1251 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-02-2013, 07:39 PM   #15
joeorzechowski
Member
 
joeorzechowski's Avatar
2010 JK Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: ellington, ct
Posts: 156
I have the original front trackbar in there, just supported with the JKS front trackbar support brackets and sector shaft kit. I think you guys might be right. I have the correct bolts with the kit. Dead steering wheel is a great way to describe it.

I am ordering JKS trackbars, front and rear, plus the rear support brace since at 4 inches of lift they say it needs to be raised.

I have to figure out which flip kit goes with my JKS front trackbar and sector shaft support kit- alot of the flip kits come with a front trackbar relocation bracket and they say you have to use them. JKS said every drag link flip kit would work in an email but their instructions with the support kit say not every one will fit and you have to contact them. There is only one post on a different forum that said Curries flip would work, but only with a JKS trackbar.
joeorzechowski is offline   Reply With Quote




Jeep, Wrangler, Cherokee, Grand Cherokee, and other models are copyrighted and trademarked to Jeep/Chrysler Corporation. JeepForum.com is not in any way associated with Jeep or the Chrysler Corp.