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Unread 07-05-2012, 09:18 PM   #31
ronjenx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jezzalachis View Post
Ronjenx, you're an interesting study yourself, let alone your Jeep projects! Highly analytical, I wouldn't be surprised to find that you are some sort of rocket-scientist of some sort! lol. How are you monitoring the temperatures and if it is external, where is the sensing element? I have a thermocouple unit that is highly accurate, I'm unsure where to monitor temps from on the engine itself.
Wow! Thanks. Not a rocket scientist. Just a life-long military aircraft mechanic.

My grandmother was a rocket pilot, though. ( '56 Oldsmobile Rocket 88, that is. Man, I loved that car!)

All my temps are monitored through the OBDII port with an AeroForce gauge. I also have a temp probe in the trans pan (sump), with a regular gauge on the A pillar. It agrees with the OEM sensor (which is also in the sump) within a needle width.

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Unread 07-07-2012, 02:24 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronjenx View Post
... It agrees with the OEM sensor (which is also in the sump) within a needle width.
Not true, the stock (OEM) transmission oil temp sensor is not in the sump. I had this debate before. I replaced the stock oil pan with a HD Deep sump oil pan from Rock Krawler. Someone had stated that the temp sensor was in the sump and to verify with the pan and filter off. I took some pictures at all angles of the exposed valve body and the relationship of the external wiring harness connector which has the temp sender unit integrated. The sensor is taking internal oil temp from inside the valve body, NOT the sump oil. Nothing except the tran oil filler tube and oil filter extent into the oil sump itself. Taking oil the,ps from the sump are meaningless due to the volume of oil. I have two aftermarket temp gauges, one on the oil line leading to the tranny cooler, and one on the return line coming back from the cooler. Temp differential (in vs Out) run about 30 degrees on average, and that is with a second auxiliary tranny cooler (B&M). The JK still sees above average tranny temps, nearly 200 degrees on a load. Am thinking of adding a remote tranny cooler with electric fan, but saw this tread and am considering this option. However I am running the Gen1 Rippmod supercharger with the Gen2 upgrade kit that includes the inter cooler and associated piping. Need to find out if the new shroud and mechanical fan will fit?

Just one question on temps, I cannot find in the manual what the operating temp is suppose to be for the engine oil. Mine has seen temps around 220, and I thought it shoul run closer to 195 (same as water/coolest) temps? I had a problem with the low/ no pressure oil light coming on at idle when oil temps exceed 170 degrees. Took it to the dealership to see if either the oil pressure switch might be bad or if the oil pump could be bad. The verdict was that neither was a problem and suggest using a thicker viscosity oil to keep pressure up. Thought that the supercharger could have a negative factor on the 5w-20. I was using a full synthetic from Amsoil and no problems until my sat oil change. So, I replaced my oil with Castrol Titanuim Edge full synthetic 10w-30 and no more oil low pressure light. The tech also recommended an oil cooler, so I installed a Derale remote Atomic-Cool oil cooler and my oil temps have not exceeded 190 and run on average around 175. Just don't know if that is too low a temp for engine oil?
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Unread 07-07-2012, 04:19 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDmaster View Post
Not true, the stock (OEM) transmission oil temp sensor is not in the sump. I had this debate before. I replaced the stock oil pan with a HD Deep sump oil pan from Rock Krawler. Someone had stated that the temp sensor was in the sump and to verify with the pan and filter off. I took some pictures at all angles of the exposed valve body and the relationship of the external wiring harness connector which has the temp sender unit integrated. The sensor is taking internal oil temp from inside the valve body, NOT the sump oil. Nothing except the tran oil filler tube and oil filter extent into the oil sump itself. Taking oil the,ps from the sump are meaningless due to the volume of oil. I have two aftermarket temp gauges, one on the oil line leading to the tranny cooler, and one on the return line coming back from the cooler. Temp differential (in vs Out) run about 30 degrees on average, and that is with a second auxiliary tranny cooler (B&M). The JK still sees above average tranny temps, nearly 200 degrees on a load. Am thinking of adding a remote tranny cooler with electric fan, but saw this tread and am considering this option. However I am running the Gen1 Rippmod supercharger with the Gen2 upgrade kit that includes the inter cooler and associated piping. Need to find out if the new shroud and mechanical fan will fit?

Just one question on temps, I cannot find in the manual what the operating temp is suppose to be for the engine oil. Mine has seen temps around 220, and I thought it shoul run closer to 195 (same as water/coolest) temps? I had a problem with the low/ no pressure oil light coming on at idle when oil temps exceed 170 degrees. Took it to the dealership to see if either the oil pressure switch might be bad or if the oil pump could be bad. The verdict was that neither was a problem and suggest using a thicker viscosity oil to keep pressure up. Thought that the supercharger could have a negative factor on the 5w-20. I was using a full synthetic from Amsoil and no problems until my sat oil change. So, I replaced my oil with Castrol Titanuim Edge full synthetic 10w-30 and no more oil low pressure light. The tech also recommended an oil cooler, so I installed a Derale remote Atomic-Cool oil cooler and my oil temps have not exceeded 190 and run on average around 175. Just don't know if that is too low a temp for engine oil?
I always try to do a little research before I post something as fact.

From the factory service manual:
"The transmission range sensor (TRS) has an integrated thermistor that the TCM uses to monitor the transmission's sump temperature."
Wanting to see it for myself, before telling everybody that's where it is, I did a little homework with my camera.

Here is a picture of the temp sensor. It clearly projects into the sump fluid.
The fluid level is quite a bit above the lower end of the temperature probe.
The end of the probe is not in the valve body.



Reading the temp in the sump isn't meaningless. It represents the most steady state temperature of the working fluid. It's the fluid the pump picks up to send through the transmission. Spikes in the torque converter are so normal and brief, there is no need to know the temp in that area. What you want to know is when the supply of fluid is climbing in temperature. This can be debated endlessly. But, it's where a lot of transmission engineers want to have the sensor.


Regarding engine oil temperature, I guess the engineers don't care to read that in a lot of engines. I have not seen an oil temperature reference in the factory service manual.
It must fall within a reasonable range when the engine is being cooled satisfactorily. Plus, it needs to get to a high enough temperature to boil off water vapor and other products of combustion.


I'm still looking for some data in reference to minimum acceptable trans fluid temp. The transmission is programmed to facilitate an increase in temp up to 80F. At that point, normal shift schedule commences, and it doesn't seem to care if it stays in that area.
Most of the references I find state that the normal temp for the transmission fluid is 180F. I chalk that up to the fact that most vehicle's trans fluid is cooled in the engine radiator, which normally runs about that temperature.

Mine stays in the 90 - 120 F range. I'm very happy to see that, and the transmission is running great.
I will be watching the transmission fluid temp's rise to 80F next winter. I suspect it will do so just fine. I am prepared to make some changes if it doesn't do just fine.
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Unread 07-07-2012, 09:13 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronjenx View Post
I always try to do a little research before I post something as fact.
As do I, as do I! Only I think more than a little research is in order here, in this case. I have actual pictures with the pan off demonsrtrating the the temp sensor does not pass into the sump, at all. It never even extends out of the valve body. The sensor is taking its "sump" tempertures from the valve body circuit, not the oil in the sump. The four images are as follows, 1) Picture of range sensor electrical connection where it enters the transmission (the lime green electrical connector); 2) Valve body from same side as where range sensor is located (notice the absense of any sensor tip passing through the valve body; 3) Valve body from directly below the location of the range sensor and integrated temp sensor. Note: the bolt holes around the rim of the tranny are for the oil pan, the black bolts hold the valve body in the transmission notice the absense of any protruding device(s); and 3) the manual's image of the integral range sensor and temp sensor as it would look removed from the transmission. No where does the tip of this thing protrude out from the valve body and into the oil pan (sump).

If you still believe that the temp sensor is taking the reading from the sump, why don't you take the valve body assembly with range sensor and oil temp sensor as you show in your post (above) and flip it over and point with your finger where you believe the sensor is protruding out of the valve body and down into the sump oil? Your picture just shows the sensor as it sits on top of and engages the valve body itself, nothing more. My pictures clearly demonstrate it does not penetrate beyond the valve body.

I found another thread/Internet article quite some time ago when I was reseraching where the best locations for tranny temp sensors should be located since many there were many different opinons on the subject. Turns out, for any automatic transmission, the absolute WORST place to test oil temp is from the pan, especially from the drain plug area where a lot of guys think is a great place to get temperature readings would be. The author of the article was an engineer very valmiliar with fluid dynamics and extreamly knowlagable of automatic transmissions. If I ever find that article, I will download or re-post a link. This engineer said that, due to the volumn of fluid in the pan, temperatures are very slow to react to temperature on a whole is never an accdurate read of what the operating temp actual is inside the transmission while it is running. The best place for the back-yard mechanic to get an fairly accurate transmission reading is of the oil as it leaves the transmission. In other words, the oil in the cooling line right after it leaves the tranny, but before it gets to the cooler (OEM or auxilliary), the closer to the trasmission exit port, the better. That is how HOT the fluid really is getting and what is "felt" or experienced by the majority of the transmission internals, not the oil in the pan, and certainly not the oil in the return line.
The reason I have one sensor on each side is to measure the differential and effeciency of my cooling system (OEM and auxilliary tandem). The cooler the oil is coming back, the cooler it will be on exit (so goes the theory. If your happy with just taking sump temps, good for you, but I, for one, want to know how hot the oil really is getting.

I forgot to say thanks for sharing the article on the mechanical fan option. So thanks, It was a good read! Still think I will have problems with my intercooler piping not clearing the fan, or the shroud for that matter. May just end up with a Derale Hyper-Cool remote cooler mounted in the rear, and bypass the OEM tranny cooler and my B&M aux cooler altogther.

Clearly, you are very lucky to have such low tranny oil temps, even with my deep sump and aux oil cooler, I still experience temps approaching 200, but at least not the 270 I saw before all that. I may still add a remote cooler. I really like the Derale Engine Oil Cooler and I mounted it in the passenger side wheel well. Don't think I have room for the another one on the driver side which is why I am looking at the mechanical option as another approach.

Regards.
012.jpg   013.jpg   014.jpg   34427.jpg  

Last edited by TDmaster; 07-07-2012 at 09:15 PM.. Reason: Typos grammer
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Unread 07-07-2012, 09:41 PM   #35
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In my picture, you can see the temp probe rests on top of the valve body.

In your second picture, the top of the valve body is at the pan/transmission mating surface. (Thanks for posting your pictures. I'd like to copy them to my Jeep Tech Pictures folder.)

The level of the fluid in the sump is about 1.5 inches above the pan/transmission mating surface.

The temp probe is awash in sump fluid.

The probe doesn't have to protrude below the valve body to be exposed to the fluid in the sump.

It may be said the fluid above the valve body is warmer than that blow the valve body. My experience with the aftermarket probe below the valve body indicates the fluid at each position is pretty close to the same.

Regarding the best location for the transmission temp probe, like I said, it can be debated forever.
The transmission control module wants to know sump fluid temperature.
It would be interesting to know where the temp probe is in other makes of vehicles.

I will do some more looking when I take my pan off for the next service.
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Unread 07-08-2012, 12:23 PM   #36
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DESCRIPTION
The transmission temperature sensor is a thermistor that is integral to the Transmission Range Sensor (TRS).

OPERATION
The transmission temperature sensor is used by the TCM to sense the temperature of the fluid in the sump. Since fluid temperature can affect transmission shift quality and convertor lock up, the TCM requires this information to determine which shift schedule to operate in.

Calculated Temperature:
A failure in the temperature sensor or circuit will result in calculated temperature being substituted for actual temperature. Calculated temperature is a predicted fluid temperature which is calculated from a combination of inputs:
  • Battery (ambient) temperature
  • Engine coolant temperature
  • In-gear run time since start-up

The 42RFE is old technology, lots of friction = heat as well as robs mpg.
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Unread 07-25-2012, 10:37 PM   #37
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I'm on tank #9 since the mechanical fan conversion, and still at mpg less than the long term average.
The weather has been in the 80's and 90's.
Engine temp still hovers around thermostat temp.
Transmission temp remains in the 90F to 130F range.
This is in city stop-n-go traffic, on the highway, and on the trail.

Normally, the fan runs at around 30 percent of pulley speed.
There have been a few times when the thermal clutch has stepped the fan up to 80 - 90 percent of pulley speed, but the temp gauges have been steady.
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Unread 10-28-2012, 10:40 PM   #38
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Update on transmission temps with the cooler weather:

The local temps have been in the 20'sF in the mornings, lately.
My transmission has had no problem reaching the 80F mark, which is where normal shifting commences.
It continues to run in the 90F to 130F range.
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Unread 01-02-2013, 09:17 PM   #39
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Another update regarding trans temps in cold weather:

It was -10F this morning.
The trans temp had no problem reaching 80F, which is where normal shifting commences.
It continues to run in the 90F to 130F range.
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Unread 01-03-2013, 09:10 PM   #40
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I see that a 2011 Chrysler 300 w/3.6L has a mechanical fan and clutch available.
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Unread 01-13-2013, 05:00 PM   #41
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ronjenx, I'm curious about noise with the thermal fan? We just removed a Hemi with a thermal fan from a JK to install an LS.

The Hemi was down right annoying when the fan clutch engaged.
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Unread 01-13-2013, 05:51 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VEGASROBBI View Post
ronjenx, I'm curious about noise with the thermal fan? We just removed a Hemi with a thermal fan from a JK to install an LS.

The Hemi was down right annoying when the fan clutch engaged.
I don't recall if I mentioned it already in this thread, but quite a while ago I removed the generic Car Quest clutch and installed the MOPAR clutch, (called for by part number in the JK parts book).

I can hear the fan for up to 30 seconds on a very cold start. It's not a big roar like my '02 Dakota made.

When the fan engages on a hot day, there is very little additional noise over the normal engine noise. I can hear it, but it's by no means annoying.
Most of the time, the air volume when not engaged is enough to keep things cool, so it doesn't engage the higher speed very often.

Overall, I think it would be hard for anyone to hear a noticeable difference between mine and a stock JK.
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Unread 07-13-2013, 05:36 PM   #43
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I am looking to do this to my JK. What was your reasoning for changing to the Mopar fan clutch? Did the aftermarket fail?

Since my first engine went south I have been suspect of the excessive heat.

I just upped to 35's and still with 4.10's and a drive up the canyon yesterday I was seeing engine temp at 230+ and transmission temp at 225.

I know that I need to regear and that will help the temps as the load won't be as great and the transmission won't be slipping or shifting as much going up grades but I still don't like seeing these numbers.

I do have a transmission cooler and in normal rush hour traffic I am seeing 170-185's on my rides home from work in 95-100 degree weather and the intake air temps are pretty high too.
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Unread 07-13-2013, 08:20 PM   #44
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I am looking to do this to my JK. What was your reasoning for changing to the Mopar fan clutch? Did the aftermarket fail?
The Car Quest thermal clutch didn't fail. I went to the MOPAR clutch in the interest of research. Both parts performed well.

I am still debating if I should install the electric fan, too, but I have not seen any heat related need to do it. The temps here have reached the mid-90s.
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Unread 07-14-2013, 05:13 PM   #45
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I was actually thinking of this thread since we're having such a hot summer in the northeast. I'm glad to see everything running well.
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