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Unread 09-25-2006, 03:16 PM   #91
ieatchickens
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I don't argue the fact that Jeep should have a 2wd, 4 door convertible. I just don't want it to be the flagship model/icon of the Jeep line, the Wrangler.

Make a convertible Grand Cherokee or Liberty if you want but leave the old mule alone! That why marketing people have multiple products.

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Unread 09-25-2006, 03:26 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ieatchickens
I don't argue the fact that Jeep should have a 2wd, 4 door convertible. I just don't want it to be the flagship model/icon of the Jeep line, the Wrangler.

Make a convertible Grand Cherokee or Liberty if you want but leave the old mule alone! That why marketing people have multiple products.
Neither the Grand Cherokee or Liberty was designed to be a convertable. You would have to completely redesign them and they still probably wouldn't work as well or be as popular as a 4-dr 2WD Wrangler convertable. I doubt Jeep would want to spend more money to build something that won't sell as well as something that costs less to develop/build.
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Unread 09-25-2006, 03:32 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cab76
Neither the Grand Cherokee or Liberty was designed to be a convertable. You would have to completely redesign them and they still probably wouldn't work as well or be as popular as a 4-dr 2WD Wrangler convertable. I doubt Jeep would want to spend more money to build something that won't sell as well as something that costs less to develop/build.
Do you work for DC?

What is your expertise?

I ask this because any vehicle can be made into a convertible. Heck, my daughter has an old Cavalier (unibody) that works fine as a ragtop. I doubt it, or any other vehicle were "designed" to be convertibles.
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Unread 09-25-2006, 03:52 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ieatchickens
Do you work for DC?

What is your expertise?

I ask this because any vehicle can be made into a convertible. Heck, my daughter has an old Cavalier (unibody) that works fine as a ragtop. I doubt it, or any other vehicle were "designed" to be convertibles.
I don't need to work for DC or have any special expertise to know that it would be difficult to create a convertable Liberty. Sure any vehicle can be made into a convertable, and I'm sure there are aftermarket companies out there that will make your Grand or Liberty into a convertable right now if you pay them enought money. But that doesn't mean the product will work well or be ready for mass production - this takes at the very least months of design, research and development. And yes, the Wrangler was "designed" to be a convertable. So was a Mazda Miata. So was an Audi TT (even though it also comes in a coupe). If they weren't already designed accordingly, automobile bodies must be strengthened to withstand the loss of ridgety that comes when you remove the top. In the case of unibody designs (like the XJ, Grand, and Liberty) that strenghtening is even more important because the body and frame are essentially the same. This is why, in most cases when an automaker creates a convertable model they add in various additional braces and sometimes roll bars to improve the ridgety of the cabin (of course a roll bar will also help in case of a roll in a convertable). In the case of the Wrangler, it is also designed with a variety of features that help it do well in the elements (relatively flat, tucked in dash, electronics mostly centered in the interior, drains in the floor) in case of a freak rain storm, etc - not the case for the Grand or Liberty.
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Unread 09-25-2006, 04:08 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by cab76
I don't need to work for DC or have any special expertise to know that it would be difficult to create a convertable Liberty. Sure any vehicle can be made into a convertable, .....mass production - this takes at the very least months of design, research and development.
Designing a convertible Liberty would be no harder than designing any other convertible (Toyota Solara, Cavalier, Camero etc) Body needs to be reinforced like any other rag top.

I would bet designing a convertible Liberty would take no more or no less resources than "the months" it probably took to design the 4 door Wrangler so that argument is a wash.

PS I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night!
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Unread 09-25-2006, 04:30 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ieatchickens
Designing a convertible Liberty would be no harder than designing any other convertible (Toyota Solara, Cavalier, Camero etc) Body needs to be reinforced like any other rag top.
I would not buy a convertible Liberty. I would rather buy a non-convertible Toyota. I can find a good use for capabilities of Unlimited Rubicon. Those feature is the only reason I would consider a Jeep nowdays, GC and Liberty are not cutting it for me. If you did not notice, not only a 2Wd version of the 4dr is offered. All you elitists can stuff it. Good expedition vehicles are 4dr. SWB is more of a toy.
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Unread 09-25-2006, 10:38 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ieatchickens
Designing a convertible Liberty would be no harder than designing any other convertible (Toyota Solara, Cavalier, Camero etc) Body needs to be reinforced like any other rag top.

I would bet designing a convertible Liberty would take no more or no less resources than "the months" it probably took to design the 4 door Wrangler so that argument is a wash.

That's a false choice - Jeep is already offering a convertable 4-door Wrangler - converting that to 2WD is simple. But to take a 2WD vehicle like the Grand or Liberty and make it a convertable would require much more effort.

But ultimately the key is that there is a market (I would guess a fairly strong market) for a 2WD 4-door Wrangler. There is not a market (that I am aware of) for a convertable Grand, Liberty, or Commander (I've never seen one with the top ripped off - have seen a few XJs with no top - I would argue the JK Unl. is essentially a modern XJ anyways). Jeep obviously thinks that the 2WDs will sell well - otherwise they wouldn't offer them as an option. If they don't sell well Jeep will drop the option. If they do sell well what's the problem?
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Unread 09-26-2006, 08:58 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ieatchickens
Quote:
Originally Posted by cab76
I don't need to work for DC or have any special expertise to know that it would be difficult to create a convertable Liberty. Sure any vehicle can be made into a convertable, .....mass production - this takes at the very least months of design, research and development.
Designing a convertible Liberty would be no harder than designing any other convertible (Toyota Solara, Cavalier, Camero etc) Body needs to be reinforced like any other rag top.

I would bet designing a convertible Liberty would take no more or no less resources than "the months" it probably took to design the 4 door Wrangler so that argument is a wash.

PS I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night!
Without completly redesigning the Liberty or Grand Cherokee into a body on frame vehicle, your chances of ever seeing one legally roll off an assembly line as a convertable are near zilch.

Chopping off the roof of a tall, unibody SUV would be a disaster without tons of structural redesign. This is why no other SUV maker has done it.

-Romm
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Unread 09-26-2006, 09:16 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by ieatchickens
I want a Corvette station wagon with a 6 cylinder! Then I could take the whole family with my and save gas while still driving a Corvette! It wouldn't dilute the brand at all. Come on GM, build the Vette wagon!
Ok ... done!
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Unread 09-26-2006, 09:33 AM   #100
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Unread 09-26-2006, 11:41 AM   #101
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Cool pic.

Your siggy confuses me. What is an Unlimited Rubicon Sahara?
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Unread 09-26-2006, 02:23 PM   #102
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Your siggy confuses me. What is an Unlimited Rubicon Sahara?
Back in '05 Jeep offered a special edition Wrangler called the "Sahara", which offered some aesthetic upgrades. I think it was marketed as being based on the movie Sahara. It had a special paint theme, interior, etc. I guess you could get a version of it with the Unlimited Rubicon.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cab76
Jeep obviously thinks that the 2WDs will sell well - otherwise they wouldn't offer them as an option. If they don't sell well Jeep will drop the option. If they do sell well what's the problem?

No problem and what you say is logical but I guess I've always thought of the Wrangler as being " the rugged 4WD" version of the Jeep product line. Certainly Jeep has promoted that image for the Wrangler over the years. To then come out with a 2WD option is a bit puzzling but it's not something that I'll lose sleep over. I can also see it as a good way to offer a more affordable Wrangler for those who want a Wrangler but never plan to drive it over more than a few speed bumps.

I was also not aware that so many other Jeeps offered the 2WD option as well so I stand corrected in my assumption that all Jeeps are 4WD. Live and learn.
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Unread 09-26-2006, 02:31 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Backroads
Back in '05 Jeep offered a special edition Wrangler called the "Sahara", which offered some aesthetic upgrades. I think it was marketed as being based on the movie Sahara. It had a special paint theme, interior, etc. I guess you could get a version of it with the Unlimited Rubicon.
The Sahara trim has been around a lot longer than the movie, since the YJ's at least... though they certainly tried to milk that for all it was worth while they could!
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Unread 09-26-2006, 02:49 PM   #104
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The Sahara trim has been around a lot longer than the movie, since the YJ's at least... though they certainly tried to milk that for all it was worth while they could!
I thought the "Sahara" that came out in '05 was based on or part of the promotion for the movie and was entirely separate from the Sahara model that came in earlier Wranglers. Wasn't the original "Sahara" a separate model like the "X", Sport or Rubicon? That's probably why the one fellow who posted earlier was confused.

But wasn't the "Sahara" that came out in '05 an aesthetic upgrade? An appearance package like the Columbia, Golden Eagle, Willys, Freedom, etc.

Jeep has so many different special editions it's easy to get confused. I know I am.
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Nothing like going topless with some Kid Rock blasting looking down on the rice boys with their dropped Civics wondering what Japanese steel would look like under the Mickey Thompsons.
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Unread 09-26-2006, 02:58 PM   #105
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But for the claim of reliability, I work in a Chrysler/Jeep dealer and I can tell you there are PLEANTY of >200k 3.8s (as well as the similar 3.3L) on the road in the minivans as well as other Chrysler cars. I don't think reliability will be a big concern. They've even been turbo charged with few mechanical failures. The 4.0 is legendary, but the 3.8 is no slouch, it just doesn't get the rep because there aren't many die-hard minivan owners as there are Jeepers
My Plymouth Grand Voyager had 160k miles on it when I sold it and it wasn't even using any oil and drove great. I sold the minivan 3 years ago. The guy who bought it lives around here and I see it driving around all the time. He is a painter and uses it for his work vehicle. It must have well over 200k miles on it. I don't think reliability is a concern. If anything, DC made a good choice with regards to this engine because it has been in production for years and has a proven track record.
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