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Unread 09-22-2006, 07:42 PM   #46
cab76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ieatchickens
That somewhat suprises me since early pictures showed that it seemed to hang low behind the rear bumber taking away somewhat from its departure angle.
Take a look at the JK/TJ comparison pictures and compare the departure angles on jeep.com. It's not even close - the JK bumper/rear end sits much higher than the TJ with a shorter overhang, resulting in a departure angle much better than the TJ. In addition the TJ has a gas tank under the rear end that definitely hangs low. So, yes there may be a need to place a skid or attempt to move the muffler if you regularly do some heavy duty off-roading. But, in my opinion, the JK's set up is vastly superior to the TJ in this area. Much better departure angle and if you do hit hard you're tearing up the muffler instead of the gas tank.

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Unread 09-22-2006, 08:02 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tplochar
I think most TJ owners, myself included, were so hopeful for a new Wrangler that when the JK finally came out and it wasn't perfect, we all felt sort of let down. Sure the JK is probably better than the TJ on and off the road. The technological changes over 10 years have been reflected in the JK, I think most of us appreciate the lockers, navigation, etc. The "flaws" on paper, perceived or real, is what most TJ owners are disappointed about. I thought DC could have done better than they did, but this is not to say that they effed up on the JK and that its worse than the TJ. Just thought I could clear that up for the JK lovers around here. Don't take our criticisms of the JK as bashing, its more of pointing out things we thought DC could have done better.

I can't wait to wheel one.


Well said. Some TJ owners were also really worried that Jeep would royally screw up the JK (for instance there were some rumors of IFS for quite some time) and were relieved/happy to see how the JK turned out. Everyone one has a different opinion/perspective and the point of discussion forums is to be able to express that opinion and discuss with others.

However, this is the JK tech forum - so there should be some restraint with non-tech related opinions or those that are here to bash and nothing else. I have no problem with someone posting something they don't like about the JK, even in the tech forum as long as they are respectful to others and actually are interested in discussing the issue. I'll give a couple examples from this thread:

Example of pure bashing/hating (adds nothing to tech forum and should not be posted here): "GAY GAY GAY GAY GAY IS THE JK!!!"

Not a very intelligent comment, but who knows it could lead to a very entertaining discussion in the General Discussion section.

Example of legitimate concern about the JK (could lead to useful discussion, such as is it really a problem and if so, how does one fix it): "That somewhat suprises me since early pictures showed that it (the muffler) seemed to hang low behind the rear bumper taking away somewhat from its departure angle. Now, with that being said, any issues for the rear shock mounts that seem to hang real low?"

Perfect post for the tech section. I replied that I disagree that the muffler is an issue. But I am ordering a JK and am also curious about the shock mounts. They are pushed outboard, but they do seem low. I wonder if this has been a problem at all for people that have wheeled the JK and if so how difficult it would be to raise or protect the mounts. Any aftermarket solutions? Etc. - this is the type of discussion that the tech forum is all about.
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Unread 09-22-2006, 08:11 PM   #48
SecondTJ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cab76
It is already speaking. TJ incentives have been staggering and yet sales are still down 16% on the year.
We are in the 10th year of production of the TJ, a vehicle that has been on the market for TEN years without major redesign, PLUS the surge in gas prices = yes of course sales are going to be down.

Nothing has consistant sales for 10 years. Down only 16% isnt that bad when you consider how poor the domestic automakers are doing and the market.

People are going to look at the sales of the final year of the TJ, and the first year of the Jk, and say how it blew it out of the water. But thats not a fair comparision. You'd have to go back and compare sales to the first year of the TJ.

In the last year of the JK, then you can compare them to the last year of the TJ. And compare overall sales. Its so simple, why can't people grasp this concept.
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Unread 09-22-2006, 08:13 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cab76
:Perfect post for the tech section. I replied that I disagree that the muffler is an issue. But I am ordering a JK and am also curious about the shock mounts. They are pushed outboard, but they do seem low. I wonder if this has been a problem at all for people that have wheeled the JK and if so how difficult it would be to raise or protect the mounts. Any aftermarket solutions? Etc. - this is the type of discussion that the tech forum is all about.
Interesting. Is the new configuration of the shock mounts by any chance similar to the shock mount positions that Nth Degree uses? I remember his claim that moving them improves on pavement handling. Maybe DC noticed his comment?
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Unread 09-22-2006, 08:28 PM   #50
cab76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SecondTJ
We are in the 10th year of production of the TJ, a vehicle that has been on the market for TEN years without major redesign, PLUS the surge in gas prices = yes of course sales are going to be down.

Nothing has consistant sales for 10 years. Down only 16% isnt that bad when you consider how poor the domestic automakers are doing and the market.

People are going to look at the sales of the final year of the TJ, and the first year of the Jk, and say how it blew it out of the water. But thats not a fair comparision. You'd have to go back and compare sales to the first year of the TJ.

In the last year of the JK, then you can compare them to the last year of the TJ. And compare overall sales. Its so simple, why can't people grasp this concept.
You're missing the point. Comparing last year TJ sales to first year JK sales IS a fair comparison if your argument is that the TJ is vastly superior to the JK as is and therefore the JK's will not sell well. If that were correct, then there would be a run on 06 TJs and sales of the JK would languish. My point is simply that that does not appear to be the case even with DC adding very attractive incentives to the TJ.
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Unread 09-22-2006, 09:03 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cab76


. . .

and am also curious about the shock mounts. They are pushed outboard, but they do seem low. I wonder if this has been a problem at all for people that have wheeled the JK and if so how difficult it would be to raise or protect the mounts. . .

For the most part wouldn't any rock that was sticking up high enough to hit them be taken out of the equation as they'd follow the tire up and over that said rock? Seems to me that they're placed in a decent spot considering the travel they give.

In any case I've read every review I can find, and every report from the Rubicon run and I don't recall a single comment about them being a problem.

Hip


Oh, and as for haters like JeepinYahoo. It's only natural for people like that to hate. I'm sure he hates the fact that he's spent a bunch of money on a BB, tires, axle, locker, etc., and knows his moded TJ would still get owned by a stock JK. That must REALLY sting.
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Unread 09-22-2006, 09:38 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tplochar
I think most TJ owners, myself included, were so hopeful for a new Wrangler that when the JK finally came out and it wasn't perfect, we all felt sort of let down. Sure the JK is probably better than the TJ on and off the road. The technological changes over 10 years have been reflected in the JK, I think most of us appreciate the lockers, navigation, etc. The "flaws" on paper, perceived or real, is what most TJ owners are disappointed about. I thought DC could have done better than they did, but this is not to say that they effed up on the JK and that its worse than the TJ. Just thought I could clear that up for the JK lovers around here. Don't take our criticisms of the JK as bashing, its more of pointing out things we thought DC could have done better.

I can't wait to wheel one.
Great post. I agree that the JK might be better off road than the TJ. BUT....

I don't like the slanted grill
Rounded windshield
Plastic bumper (exterior)
The droopy fenders
The missing Joop on the side
A little too wide for my tastes
The CV joints
Shock mounts
2WD option

Everything else I believe DC got right. But @&$# I wish the list above had only 1 or 2 things on it instead of 9!


On the bright side I love the...

Interior
Electronic disconects
Better axles
Tracktion control
4 door option
Modular hard top
Blinkers on the grill CJ style

All in all, the JK doesn't give me enough reason to run out and replace my TJ but maybe in another 10 years the next generation will have fixed some of these short comings.
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Unread 09-22-2006, 09:39 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SecondTJ
We are in the 10th year of production of the TJ, a vehicle that has been on the market for TEN years without major redesign...
You are forgetting the stretch TJ, the Unlimited, which came out on 2004 1/2 and paved the way for the new 4-door JKs. When I bought my Unlimited last year, the salesman told me he couldn't keep them on the lot, which was true as I saw them disappear quite rapidly from the dealership.
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Unread 09-22-2006, 11:34 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cab76
Comparing last year TJ sales to first year JK sales IS a fair comparison if your argument is that the TJ is vastly superior to the JK as is and therefore the JK's will not sell well. If that were correct, then there would be a run on 06 TJs and sales of the JK would languish.
No, it is not. I guess you'd really have to understand marketing to understand. If the TJ or JK is better, is pure preception. It's in the eye of the beholder. The fact that a 10 year platform is still around is amazing, the average life span of a vehicle is ~5 years. To double that, and still sell them is a very nice feat. The JK will sell very well, due to it being the first brand new Wrangler in 10 years. And the cycle will continue, sales for the JK will slow over the years, if the JK runs until 2016, and then the new Jx comes out. The new Jx will sell better of the 2016 Model JK.

Its just as the TJ killed in sales when it was released in '96 over the sales of YJ. You CANNOT compare them. You can compare them once the JK has reached the lifespan of the TJ, then you can look back.
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Unread 09-23-2006, 12:18 AM   #55
cab76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SecondTJ
No, it is not. I guess you'd really have to understand marketing to understand. If the TJ or JK is better, is pure preception. It's in the eye of the beholder. The fact that a 10 year platform is still around is amazing, the average life span of a vehicle is ~5 years. To double that, and still sell them is a very nice feat. The JK will sell very well, due to it being the first brand new Wrangler in 10 years. And the cycle will continue, sales for the JK will slow over the years, if the JK runs until 2016, and then the new Jx comes out. The new Jx will sell better of the 2016 Model JK.

Its just as the TJ killed in sales when it was released in '96 over the sales of YJ. You CANNOT compare them. You can compare them once the JK has reached the lifespan of the TJ, then you can look back.
I can't believe I'm responding again to your argument but if you respond back with the same point I'm done - we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I understand what you're saying, which is to objectively compare the success of the JK model to the TJ model you should look at comparative model years. Thus, compare the first year JK sales to first year TJ sales. I get it.

Here is my point, which I think you basically agree with because you agree that the JK will sell well: Some people on this forum think that even though the TJ is a ten year design it is darn near perfect and should not be changed. Some of these people think that screwing with the design in any significant way (ie updating) is a bad move by DC. Many of these people state that 06 is the last year of the true Jeep and why would anyone want an 07... If these people are correct, customers should want the TJ more than the JK even though it is a ten year old model. I disagree with this argument and it looks like you do too.
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Unread 09-23-2006, 01:23 PM   #56
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This thead is funny. With the last two cars I owned new models came out while I owned them and I feel a strange sense of deja vu. The bashing of the new model, the defensiveness of those with the old. It's all the same. The words change but the song remains the same.

I think DC could've done a lot worse than the JK. I recall people being concerned that the new model would have IFS, nonremoveable doors and there wouldn't be a softtop option. None of this happened and except for some aesthetic concerns it looks to be a solid product with some real improvements and a natural evolution of the Wrangler. I think the 4 door is a great idea and anything that helps sells more Jeeps is a good thing. I'd consider it a viable option for my own family in a few years.

Fact is, TJs aren't selling as well because the majority of people want the latest and newest. The diehards who spent the big bucks on last year's model are naturally defensive and will put down almost anything on the new product if only to convince themselves that they have the best and last "classic Jeep".

I bought my '05 TJ knowing it would soon be rendered obsolete by the new redesigned '07 and that was fine with me. I wanted a tried and true product with a long history behind it and a big aftermarket to support it and that's what I have with my TJ. I like it just fine but I'm not deluding myself by saying that it's better than what's replacing it. Even if I were shopping for my Wrangler now I'd buy a leftover TJ because I never buy a first year, completey redesigned model of any vehicle. If I wanted a JK I'd be waiting until '09, when they've worked the bugs out or at least offered a diesel or hemi option.

In the meantime I have a nice TJ to play with and that's fine with me. If I have any regrets it's that I didn't wait to pick up a leftover '06 Rubicon. I'd probably get a great deal.

I have yet to drive or even see a JK but I look forward to checking them out, especially on the trail. Good luck to all who take the plunge and keep us posted.

BTW, one question. I know that the Sahara and Rubicon come with 32" tires but aren't they lower profile 17-18" tires? How suitable would these be for offroad or is it just a given that you'd need to change the stock wheels and tires?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniper111
Nothing like going topless with some Kid Rock blasting looking down on the rice boys with their dropped Civics wondering what Japanese steel would look like under the Mickey Thompsons.
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Unread 09-23-2006, 02:46 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Backroads
I think DC could've done a lot worse than the JK. I recall people being concerned that the new model would have IFS, nonremoveable doors and there wouldn't be a softtop option. None of this happened and except for some aesthetic concerns it looks to be a solid product with some real improvements and a natural evolution of the Wrangler. I think the 4 door is a great idea and anything that helps sells more Jeeps is a good thing. I'd consider it a viable option for my own family in a few years.
Not to mention they actually managed to make it less expensive.
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Unread 09-23-2006, 03:54 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LEDFoot
Not to mention they actually managed to make it less expensive.
Which is impressive in itself.
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Nothing like going topless with some Kid Rock blasting looking down on the rice boys with their dropped Civics wondering what Japanese steel would look like under the Mickey Thompsons.
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Unread 09-23-2006, 04:22 PM   #59
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by PM Thor
Complaint: The plastic bumpers are stupid and weak.
Reality: So are the TJ’s. How many TJs are still hitting the trails or even the streets with the factory bumpers? Swap ’em out.

This is wrong. The TJ has bumper end caps that are plastic, not the whole bumper.


You're technically right, but I think that is really splitting hairs. The point is very few people like the TJ bumpers - they hang low (especially in the rear) and even though parts are steel, they are not that strong (and there are large plastic end caps as you point out).


Quote:
Originally Posted by PM Thor
[b]Complaint: The mid-ship–mounted fuel tank won’t allow a long-arm lift kit.
Reality: You won’t need an aftermarket long-arm lift kit. The JK comes with up to 32-inch tires from the factory (Sahara and Rubicon models). Fitting 35s should only require 2–3 inches of lift. This will keep the suspension geometry in check without the complexity or expense of a long-arm lift kit.

Uh what? I guess all the hard core guys who only have their Jeep as a wheeler are now screwed. What if you want, or need, to go bigger? Stupid excuse.


I have to agree with you here. In the entire article this is one area that had me scratching my head a bit. Yes, the JK is clearly an improvement for those that want to run minor to mid-level lifts. But if you want to run a real monster lift and need long arms, there is at least a question as to whether it will be possible on the JK. From what I have heard, long arms will be possible on the JK and aftermarket manufacterers are working on them as we speak - where there is a will, there is a way. And what JPMagazine should have pointed out is that the gas tank was moved in order to comply with federal safety regulations

Doesn't a long arm lift generally give you more flex capability besides JUST getting bigger tires under it?
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Unread 09-23-2006, 04:28 PM   #60
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Here is what I find compelling about the JK....
http://project-jk.com/index.php/?p=4
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