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Unread 12-06-2008, 10:34 AM   #1
242much
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JK's on ice

this is our first jeep winter. the wife has an xj and i have a jk. any tips for driving regular tires in the winter? we had a sort of rain/small snow/ice situation last night. hell, i hardly got TO the truck. fun drive home tho, call me rhys millen. anyway, tips for the wife? tips for me? post up plz

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Unread 12-06-2008, 10:45 AM   #2
CGScotty
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Take it nice and slow. I am running 35's and much more weight but I still take everything nice and slow. If there is any chance of my tires slipping I drop it in 4hi just because. There has been a couple time where I thought I didn't need it in 4 and ended up going of course and sliding. We are currently getting 6-9 inches of the pretty white stuff. Im actually going to go into work and play with our new bobcat. This thing came with a 80 inch snow bucket. Woo..Hoo...
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Unread 12-06-2008, 10:54 AM   #3
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lol. maybe we should grab a few sandbags. forgot about that.
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good grief, just buy the Rubicon.
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Unread 12-06-2008, 01:24 PM   #4
faticone
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Take it slow.. Use 4 wheel if you feel slipping
I dontthnk you should need to add weight to it.. Just remember

Just because you drive a jeep you can handle better than most in the show.. You can start up better in the snow.. But everyone stops the same.. Be safe and have fun when you can!
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Unread 12-06-2008, 02:26 PM   #5
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Remember that 4 wheel will make you go forward better than 2wd, but that's it. It doesn't help you stop, and actually makes turning worse, so be aware of that when you use it.
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Unread 12-06-2008, 05:17 PM   #6
jaminb
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how does it make turning worse? instead of just your rear wheels pushing you through the coner and making your front wheels lose grip, in 4 hi the front wheels will also pull you through the coner. This is why front wheel drive cars are so much better in the winter.
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Unread 12-06-2008, 05:43 PM   #7
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I agree 100% with jaminb.

And I know you said you're going to be on "regular tires" but if you're concerned about it, I would suggest BF Goodrich All Terrian tires. As long as you get the right ones (I believe they are the D load rated ones) they are rated for snow and I've always been happy with how they handle the rest of the year as well.
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Unread 12-06-2008, 05:46 PM   #8
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so in a sense i guess if you want really good handeling in the snow pull your rear drive shaft and put it in 4hi, then you will have front wheel drive or leave it and put it in 4hi and rember that in the snow the gas pedel can be your friend
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Unread 12-06-2008, 05:48 PM   #9
Xtremjeepn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaminb View Post
how does it make turning worse? instead of just your rear wheels pushing you through the coner and making your front wheels lose grip, in 4 hi the front wheels will also pull you through the coner. This is why front wheel drive cars are so much better in the winter.
Hang with me here a second I have taught this professionally for 16 years.

The basic concept is that you have "100 Units" of traction to make the car turn, stop or go. Any time you try to use more than 100 the car is sliding. (if you try to use 101 for example).

The units can be divided up into differnt actions. For example you could use ALL 100 to stop with, turn with or go with. Or you cold use 60 to turn with and 40 to stop with, etc. Any combo you want as long as you do not exceed a total of 100.

In order to do ANY action in the car the most effectively you must use the most units for that and that ONLY. So the MOST effective way to stop is in a straight line using the available units for ONLY braking. Most effective turning you don't want to be accelerating or braking, just turning.


So when you have a car in 4 wheel drive you are now asking the front wheels to perform 2 traction tasks instead of just one. You are asking them to help you go AND help you turn. This reduces the total traction available for each.

Rear wheel drive only cars steer very well in the snow, but because the rear wheels are being asked to provide so much forward traction they have very little left to hold the lateral needs of there grip. (allows them to slip sideways easier). So while the front actually grips and steers really well, the back can cross its use of traction much easier making the car seem unstable.

I could go on for days on this topic. I teach all the local Audi, BMW, SCCA, police winter schools and have taught it for a long time.
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Unread 12-06-2008, 05:56 PM   #10
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Nah, scratch all that. Everything works better when you floor it.
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Unread 12-06-2008, 05:56 PM   #11
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ok i understand that but then wouldn't it make it better to divide up everything evenly like what happens if 4wd. Instead of making the rear wheels carry the 100 units of forward momentum? so for instacne lets say that each wheel has 25 units wouldn't that be better then 50/50 in the rear?
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Unread 12-06-2008, 06:41 PM   #12
Xtremjeepn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BRICKTOP2 View Post
Nah, scratch all that. Everything works better when you floor it.

In the JK that kinda works because the traction control, ESP and BLD just take over and keep you from screwing up too bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaminb View Post
ok i understand that but then wouldn't it make it better to divide up everything evenly like what happens if 4wd. Instead of making the rear wheels carry the 100 units of forward momentum? so for instacne lets say that each wheel has 25 units wouldn't that be better then 50/50 in the rear?
Yes, and No. If you are talking strickly "steering" ability having the front wheels ONLY steer is best. You CAN accomplish this in 4x4 by going though a corner balanced, (not accelerating, not braking/decelerating). Where people have a problem with this is by accelerating through the corner where you are actively asking the front wheels to do both tasks.

There are benefits when you keep it below the 100 unit threshold too. Let me lay a bit more foundation and then I will move one here.

A 4,000lb Jeep in 2wd (open diffs) is really asking 1 wheel to push 4,000lbs on a slick surface. Put that same Jeep in 4x4 (open diffs) and you have 1 fron and 1 rear dividing up the work, so each wheel only has to push 2,000lbs. Add things like LSD or lockers and you reduce the amount each wheel has to move forward. This is the how 4x4 helps in the snow.

Keep in mind that if the Jeep moves forward with half as much work from the driver it gives the "perception" of it not being as slick out. So people tend to drive faster.

Okay. Now as long as you are taking it fairly easy and keeping those wheels below their respective 100 unit threshold you can take advantage of the power going to each wheel during turns. For example, if you are only asking for 25 units of turning traction then it is okay to also use say 60 units of accelerating traction. Buy using the 60 units of "going" traction you are reducing the remaining amount of "turning" traction. No big deal as long as the total is less than 100.

Knowing this also helps you decide what you want at a particular time and how to get it. For example...You slam on the brakes because a car pulls in front of you. You ask for 120 units and it starts to slide(leave ABS out for the moment). You then realize you are not going to stop in time so you turn the steering wheel....NOTHING happens!!! That is because you are over the thershold. Take your foot totally off the brakes and instantly you will have all 100 units back to steer with. The car will jump to the side you are trying to steer to.


Now since I opened the box. Lets talk ABS for a second. (anti-lock brakes). What do they REALLY do? They were never designed to stop a car faster. They were designed to keep the traction below the 100 unit limit to give you some units left over for steering.

You SLAM your foot on the brakes asking for 101 units, the computer senses the wheel locking up and going over its' threshold to it RELEASES brake pressure...down to say an 80 unit point to give you units left over to steer with. Well guess what....? Your foot is still planted on the brakes....this builds the pressure right up and over the 100 unit threshold again.....the computer RELEASES the pressure again......It can release the pressure YOU are creating 7-20times per second depending on the system. This is the sensation people feel in the pedal. The ABS is NOT "pumping the brakes". It is releasing excess pressure to keep you below lock up to give you steering control.

A good driver can actually stop a car faster without the ABS system in many cars. On our skid pad a typical driver could stop their car 3-5 car lengths shorter distance at 20MPH than the ABS could. This is because they can hold the pedal at 99 units of traction in a straight line, where teh ABS wants to leave extra units available for steering so it is down around say 80 units. Just takes some practice to feel the brakes start to lock/abs come on and relieve a touch of pressure to shut off the ABS/get below lock up. The amount you ease up could litterally be equal to unflexing your pinky toe


.....okay, tired of typing......
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Unread 12-06-2008, 06:44 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaminb View Post
..... front wheels will also pull you through the coner. This is why front wheel drive cars are so much better in the winter.

Front wheel drives are acutally horrible in corners in the snow because of the reasons above. What is better about them is that it is easier to pull a long object through the snow than to push it.

Think about your snow shovel. Put one hand on it and try to push it through the snow and around corners, not try to pull it. Easier to drag it around then to push it around.
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Unread 12-06-2008, 06:48 PM   #14
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haha thanks that helps me understand now
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Unread 12-06-2008, 06:56 PM   #15
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Wow Cole you are really taking it to the extreme

The simple truth of the matter is slow down. 4WD helps you get going but we all have four wheel brakes. Slowing down is the key. Good tires will make a huge difference. A good set of all seasons will get you through the whole year just fine. Practice in a empty parking lot of snow if you can get the chance.
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