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Unread 10-04-2006, 08:12 PM   #31
firefly
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Ledfoot,

You can get a BMW X3 AWD with a 6 speed Manual tranny and while they may not be the best solution for trails you'll find them more than capable when up against any urban obstacles.

I looked at the JK Unlimited Sahara today and I'm completely impressed with the interior and exterior styling. It would be tough for me to even consider the FJ at this point. I really want a 4dr JK Unlimited Sahara or Rubicon!

I parked my TJ next to the JK and although the styling of the Tj is timeless the JK still has that Jeep look and feel despite the 4 doors. I just hope we don't start seeing JK limo's popping up in Vegas But if they made on and the top came off (on the jeep ) it would be pretty darn cool.

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Unread 10-05-2006, 08:14 AM   #32
LEDFoot
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firefly
Ledfoot,

You can get a BMW X3 AWD with a 6 speed Manual tranny and while they may not be the best solution for trails you'll find them more than capable when up against any urban obstacles.
Ahh yes of course, Though I don't think that the X3 (the BMW not made by BMW) is really a competitor to the JK or FJ.
Though thanks for pointing it out. I haven't looked at any BMWs since the Bangle/Von Hooydonk shenanigans started (before the X3) and I knew the X5 wasn't available in manual (in the US).
Anyhow, the full time awd is nice to have in a daily driver. But I could deal without in a jeep (that's why I have an Audi quattro as well).
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Unread 10-05-2006, 09:25 AM   #33
JLH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LEDFoot
If you ask me... a lot of the Japanese car reliability is mostly a marketing myth
LEDFoot you are pretty close to hitting the nail on the head. Since Toyota has changed its goal from being the best to being the biggest, its quality has dropped. In the near future we will begin to see the same problems that has plagued GM show up at Toyota.

Have fun looking at this: This is basically a copy and paste of a post that got me flamed over at the FJ Cruiser forum. Ignore my comments, draw your own conclusions.

***One of the problems I have been seeing pop up is there have been at least 4 people I know that have blow the rear differential on their FJ or 4runner. The reason why this is happening is when Toyota up-sized to the 4runner and FJ, they did not beef up the rear ends. Toyota is still using the same light duty rear end as it used when the Tacoma was a mini truck. Nothing has been up graded. The only change has been to lengthen the axles for the increased width of the vehicle. The FJ and 4runner are now heavier and have more powerful engines, thus the reason why the rear ends are not holding up.


Full but not overloaded

When I showed the folks on the FJ Cruiser Forum this they claimed the owner was an idiot and over loaded the vehicle and that was the reason for the blown diff. It is obvious that he is still within the weight limits of the vehicle. So, yes the rear diff in the FJ is weak.


Broken lower control link

The same guy also broke one of the lower control links. You can see it right behind the brake line.

The cheap thin wall tube Toyota uses for its control links

A closer look at the link. As you can see they are made very cheaply. There are no less than three different companies making beefier ones already. I believe this speaks for itself.


What a blown FJ Cruiser sounds and looks like on the trail
http://www.parksoffroad.com/temp/rub...3/DSCF6650.AVI
This movie is about 10 Meg, so it will be a long down load for dial-up users, sorry. He blew the diff going up Cadillac Hill. A second FJ Cruiser tried pulling him through the rest of the trail. Even with the first FJ helping out by leaving it in 4WD and running as a FWD vehicle, the second FJ also blew his diff!

I donít know about you guys, but Iíll take a Dana 44 over the weak stuff Toyota is putting under the FJ Cruiser. ***
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Unread 10-05-2006, 09:54 AM   #34
Fargo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JLH
LEDFoot you are pretty close to hitting the nail on the head. Since Toyota has changed its goal from being the best to being the biggest, its quality has dropped. In the near future we will begin to see the same problems that has plagued GM show up at Toyota.

Have fun looking at this: This is basically a copy and paste of a post that got me flamed over at the FJ Cruiser forum. Ignore my comments, draw your own conclusions.

***One of the problems I have been seeing pop up is there have been at least 4 people I know that have blow the rear differential on their FJ or 4runner. The reason why this is happening is when Toyota up-sized to the 4runner and FJ, they did not beef up the rear ends. Toyota is still using the same light duty rear end as it used when the Tacoma was a mini truck. Nothing has been up graded. The only change has been to lengthen the axles for the increased width of the vehicle. The FJ and 4runner are now heavier and have more powerful engines, thus the reason why the rear ends are not holding up.


Full but not overloaded

When I showed the folks on the FJ Cruiser Forum this they claimed the owner was an idiot and over loaded the vehicle and that was the reason for the blown diff. It is obvious that he is still within the weight limits of the vehicle. So, yes the rear diff in the FJ is weak.


Broken lower control link

The same guy also broke one of the lower control links. You can see it right behind the brake line.

The cheap thin wall tube Toyota uses for its control links

A closer look at the link. As you can see they are made very cheaply. There are no less than three different companies making beefier ones already. I believe this speaks for itself.


What a blown FJ Cruiser sounds and looks like on the trail
http://www.parksoffroad.com/temp/rub...3/DSCF6650.AVI
This movie is about 10 Meg, so it will be a long down load for dial-up users, sorry. He blew the diff going up Cadillac Hill. A second FJ Cruiser tried pulling him through the rest of the trail. Even with the first FJ helping out by leaving it in 4WD and running as a FWD vehicle, the second FJ also blew his diff!

I donít know about you guys, but Iíll take a Dana 44 over the weak stuff Toyota is putting under the FJ Cruiser. ***
Wow, that is pretty intersting stuff. I've always been so impressed by the quality of Japanese products. It is a bit of a shame to see their quality fall. But I think you are right that in Toyotas pusuit to be the biggest they will not be the best. They have to cut corners some where.

Not only that but as they manufacture vehicles in the United States the unions will get into their pockets so they will have to cut corners to pay for retirement benefits, paid time off, union dues, and other expenses associated with unions that already plague the US automakers.

Lets just hope that others will step up to maintain competition on the quality front or the consumer will loose if everyone is making cheaper vehicles. Hopefully the new JK will prove to be a superior quality vehicle. Otherwise, it won't be too long and we will all be looking at the Korean cars as the quality car companies. Has anyone driven a Hyndai Sonata lately? Nice car.
__________________
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblaine View Post
...there's very little that is more permanent than a temporary solution
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oman Jeep
Go with quality and cry once. Go cheap and cry often. Take your pick ;)
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Unread 10-05-2006, 11:52 AM   #35
firefly
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Great info on the FJ! It's a good thing I don't show the FJ folks a picture of my TJ Sahara towing my 5000 pound boat up a steep ramp or sneaking it 4 miles away to fill her up at the nearest gas station. People the the boat yard are amazed at the low end torque the jeep has when in 4wd low and going up the steep ramp.

It looks like it's easy to conclude the FJ would be great for a commuter SUV but may have issues being a work horse while the JK would likely do a good job at both.

**note - I do not use the TJ to tow the boat other than taking it to the gas station from the marina. The boat stays on the trailer in the boat yard.
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Unread 10-05-2006, 12:13 PM   #36
Karamba
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fargo
It is a bit of a shame to see their quality fall. But I think you are right that in Toyotas pusuit to be the biggest they will not be the best. They have to cut corners some where.
I would not call some trail damage a failure in quality. Quality is OK - specifications had been on a weaker side. Leaking roof is a failure in quality.

Quality is working in its design envelope for years without troubles. And Toyota and Honda still are the benchmark.

FJ is an overstyled medium-duty off-roader. It is fairly capable at that. Nothing wrong with the concept, just take it for what it is. As if Jeep does not break off parts on the trail..

Not that I will personally pick FJ over JK Unlimited... But that is because I do not need it as a daily driver for 10 years.
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Unread 10-05-2006, 02:21 PM   #37
JLH
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It is my understanding the mode of failure is due to increased stress on the carrier housing. The newer FJ Cruiser and 4Runner are heavier and have more powerful engines. The increased torque on the rear end causes the carrier housing to flex enough to allow the spider gears to misalign. Once this happens you basically end up grenading the differential. The pinion and ring gear seem to be fine, itís the spider gears and the under sized carrier housing that are the weak link in the design. Some folks are blaming the E-locker. However, a problem is still a problem whether it is related to the E-locker or not.
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Unread 10-05-2006, 02:36 PM   #38
LEDFoot
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JLH
It is my understanding the mode of failure is due to increased stress on the carrier housing. The newer FJ Cruiser and 4Runner are heavier and have more powerful engines. The increased torque on the rear end causes the carrier housing to flex enough to allow the spider gears to misalign. Once this happens you basically end up grenading the differential. The pinion and ring gear seem to be fine, itís the spider gears and the under sized carrier housing that are the weak link in the design. Some folks are blaming the E-locker. However, a problem is still a problem whether it is related to the E-locker or not.
Lockers are extremely stressful on the rest of the drive line components. A lot of the "lockers-rule : traction-control-sucks" type of 4x4ers will just flip the locker switch on as soon as they hit the trail regardless of whether it's actually needed or not.
There may be a bit of user-error to be to blame for some of these incidents, however if you as a manufacturer are going to include something like a locker you have to properly dimension the rest of your gear to be handle the extra stress from it. Hopefully we'll see toyota put in some stronger stuff next MY.
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Unread 10-05-2006, 11:03 PM   #39
4.0v8eater
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Id like the new jk, Fj or H3 in any order

oo heck add a bmw 3 series to the mix with manual. If jeep would just put the darn diesel in the jk everything would be swell, until they do im H3 all the way.
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Unread 10-05-2006, 11:22 PM   #40
tacjeep99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fargo
Wow, that is pretty intersting stuff. I've always been so impressed by the quality of Japanese products. It is a bit of a shame to see their quality fall. But I think you are right that in Toyotas pusuit to be the biggest they will not be the best. They have to cut corners some where.

Not only that but as they manufacture vehicles in the United States the unions will get into their pockets so they will have to cut corners to pay for retirement benefits, paid time off, union dues, and other expenses associated with unions that already plague the US automakers.

Lets just hope that others will step up to maintain competition on the quality front or the consumer will loose if everyone is making cheaper vehicles. Hopefully the new JK will prove to be a superior quality vehicle. Otherwise, it won't be too long and we will all be looking at the Korean cars as the quality car companies. Has anyone driven a Hyndai Sonata lately? Nice car.
I read the article on this guy in Toyota Trails, in my opinion, this FJ driver is an IDIOT. They have taken a lot of FJs through the Rubicon without any problem, this guy goes through and tears up the passenger side body panels, damaged the rear suspension even before this breakage occurred and things just went from bad to worse. According to the article this was this clowns first off road trip ever, and he decides to cut his teeth on the Rubicon? This guy was lucky the TLCA was holding an event there that weekend with some of the more well known Toyota 4x4 experts there along with Toyota factory reps in attendance. They got him repaired and he was actually able to drive home under his own power.

I don't think Toyota's quality has fallen, and in reference to this guy, no amount of build quality will make the FJ Idiot proof.

I can do without guys like this on the trail.
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Unread 10-06-2006, 09:30 AM   #41
Fargo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tacjeep99
I read the article on this guy in Toyota Trails, in my opinion, this FJ driver is an IDIOT. They have taken a lot of FJs through the Rubicon without any problem, this guy goes through and tears up the passenger side body panels, damaged the rear suspension even before this breakage occurred and things just went from bad to worse. According to the article this was this clowns first off road trip ever, and he decides to cut his teeth on the Rubicon? This guy was lucky the TLCA was holding an event there that weekend with some of the more well known Toyota 4x4 experts there along with Toyota factory reps in attendance. They got him repaired and he was actually able to drive home under his own power.

I don't think Toyota's quality has fallen, and in reference to this guy, no amount of build quality will make the FJ Idiot proof.

I can do without guys like this on the trail.
OK. SO its good to hear the rest of the story. Sounds like this guy would have broken any 4 wheeler out there. But I still hope that Jeep improves quality and reliability. Not that its bad, but better quality is always better.

My apoligies to the original poster about getting off topic. After reading things I would say the Unlimited is better. If your going with this big of a vehicle you might as well get the 4 full doors. And if you going to go offroad you might as well have the solid axle and Jeep reputation. Jeep wins.
__________________
2005 Rubicon Unlimited Sahara Limited Edition #41
6spd manual

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblaine View Post
...there's very little that is more permanent than a temporary solution
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oman Jeep
Go with quality and cry once. Go cheap and cry often. Take your pick ;)
LJ Owners Group member #110
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