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Unread 09-21-2013, 10:49 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighandLow
Learning as I go here. Right , and right to Boss Slade and JT replies in helping me understand. So, is what I'm theorizing in any way correct? The overcompensation of weaker parts versus the under compensation of the stronger/ newer, is what causes the DW. IE: Introducing aftermarket springs, shocks, adjustable TB's and CA's expose the weaker stock or worn out OEM parts, like BJ's. It's like computational theory, all parts being equal...blah blah.
I suppose it may be possible for stronger new parts to over compensate for worn out parts but not plausible. Changing one new stronger piece for a weaker worn piece, if properly installed of course, only means one less thing to flex and shake. Introducing aftermarket parts, if installed correctly, has no bearing on DW. A brand new Jeep with few miles and totally stock suspension and tires can have DW. The new stronger parts may however speed up wear on other older components or it may prolong their life.

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Unread 09-21-2013, 11:31 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JTPhoto
I suppose it may be possible for stronger new parts to over compensate for worn out parts but not plausible. Changing one new stronger piece for a weaker worn piece, if properly installed of course, only means one less thing to flex and shake. Introducing aftermarket parts, if installed correctly, has no bearing on DW. A brand new Jeep with few miles and totally stock suspension and tires can have DW. The new stronger parts may however speed up wear on other older components or it may prolong their life.
Well, I'll take possibility vs. plausibility all day when submitting a theory. That's about B -C+.
You say you've never had a DW but you're submitting that loose trackbar , which has been identified as the culprit several times was not an issue here.
What exactly happens? I know there are videos, but for those that have driven through them. Can you keep the steering wheel straight while the tires go crazy or does the steering wheel loose all handling commands?
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Unread 09-22-2013, 12:12 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighandLow
Well, I'll take possibility vs. plausibility all day when submitting a theory. That's about B -C+. You say you've never had a DW but you're submitting that loose trackbar , which has been identified as the culprit several times was not an issue here. What exactly happens? I know there are videos, but for those that have driven through them. Can you keep the steering wheel straight while the tires go crazy or does the steering wheel loose all handling commands?
Others have thought that their Trackbar was the culprit, my thoughts are that it is not.
When I first put my lift in my helper forgot to tighten the front upper Trackbar bolt and within a week the nut had fallen off. For a week I drove with a loose Trackbar with no DW. The only reason I caught it was I could hear a click click whenever I went over bumps slowly. So I have never been a believer in the Trackbar theory.

You cannot drive through true DW. In order for it to stop you will need to come to almost a complete stop. Steering wheel shakes uncontrollably and it will be all you can do to slow down and pull over.
DW can be triggered by a bad wheel or a bad bump in the road. Loose or worn parts let it turn into DW however why it happens to one Jeep and not another is the mystery.
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Unread 09-22-2013, 07:10 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JTPhoto View Post
Others have thought that their Trackbar was the culprit, my thoughts are that it is not.

Sometimes it is, sometimes it's not. It's only 1 of many parts. You can have death wobble with a perfectly good and tight trackbar, and on the other hand sometimes the trackbar is loose or worn enough to be the major contributor. Your loose trackbar may only be 1 more components away from death wobble.

Test your theory and pull your track bar out.... Or just completely pull the bushing out.... If your thoughts are correct, you won't experience death Wobble.


What do the solid axle vehicles that are most known for death wobble have in common?
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Unread 09-22-2013, 07:55 AM   #20
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For what it's worth, I played around with my front track bar bolt to see what happened on my old 08 2dr on 35s. Had wobble a couple times so I ordered a new front TB. Before it arrived, I loosened the front frame side bolt a quarter turn and went for a ride. I couldn't get out of my neighborhood. DW would start on any little bump at about 20-25 miles per hour. Tightened the heck out of the bolt and had a hard time inducing wobble at all but a really big bump on one front tire would start it at 35 mph. New TB arrived, installed, torqued the heck out of the bolt and never had wobble again. Looking back it was a dumb move as I could've damaged a lot of stuff but I learned from it. DW can be caused by a lot of different scenarios but a stock TB with worn bushings, loose bolts or wallowed mounting hole in the frame is a great place to start looking and I believe to be the most common cause in a JK. Just my $.02
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Unread 09-22-2013, 07:56 AM   #21
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http://www.jkowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30723
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Unread 09-22-2013, 07:58 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Remmy18
For what it's worth, I played around with my front track bar bolt to see what happened on my old 08 2dr on 35s. Had wobble a couple times so I ordered a new front TB. Before it arrived, I loosened the front frame side bolt a quarter turn and went for a ride. I couldn't get out of my neighborhood. DW would start on any little bump at about 20-25 miles per hour. Tightened the heck out of the bolt and had a hard time inducing wobble at all but a really big bump on one front tire would start it at 35 mph. New TB arrived, installed, torqued the heck out of the bolt and never had wobble again. Looking back it was a dumb move as I could've damaged a lot of stuff but I learned from it. DW can be caused by a lot of different scenarios but a stock TB with worn bushings, loose bolts or wallowed mounting hole in the frame is a great place to start looking and I believe to be the most common cause in a JK. Just my $.02
and I feel the higher the tire psi, the easier to get DW to start. Again, just my $.02
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Unread 09-22-2013, 08:11 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JTPhoto
Introducing aftermarket parts, if installed correctly, has no bearing on DW. A brand new Jeep with few miles and totally stock suspension and tires can have DW.
+1 My 2008 JK had 2K miles on it when the first DW occurred. It now has 60K miles on it, is totally stock original, and has had DW at least a half dozen times. Each time it happens I take it in to the Dealer and have them look at it. Pay them a hundred bucks or so to inspect it and they find nothing. I even put the brand new original steering damper back on after the last episode. The Dealer said it was the culprit when it happened back in '08. The damper had about 5K miles on it at that time. They put a bigger and more extreme duty aftermarket damper on it back then saying that the original was too weak. So, with all original suspension items the Dealer can not say that the DW is due to Mods. Ive kept all the receipts for the day it is finally recognized as a design flaw and earns a recall. It has the lifetime power train warranty so I plan to keep it forever. Hopefully I'll get some money back someday.
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Unread 09-22-2013, 08:48 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SLADE
Sometimes it is, sometimes it's not. It's only 1 of many parts. You can have death wobble with a perfectly good and tight trackbar, and on the other hand sometimes the trackbar is loose or worn enough to be the major contributor. Your loose trackbar may only be 1 more components away from death wobble. Test your theory and pull your track bar out.... Or just completely pull the bushing out.... If your thoughts are correct, you won't experience death Wobble. What do the solid axle vehicles that are most known for death wobble have in common?
That theory was already tested.. Drove for a week with no nut on the upper Trackbar bolt. What all straight axle vehicles have in common is the straight axle assembly of course, and the steering components of. The 5 link suspension style is the only one with a track bar. They also share the same method of wheel alignment.
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Unread 09-22-2013, 09:05 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JTPhoto View Post
That theory was already tested.. Drove for a week with no nut on the upper Trackbar bolt.

What all straight axle vehicles have in common is the straight axle assembly of course, and the steering components of. The 5 link suspension style is the only one with a track bar.

You haven't tested that theory.... Having a missing "nut" does not allow the side to side axle movement that a trackbar prevents. The bolt is still there to prevent any side to side movement.

If the bolt had fallen out, you would have a different theory.


The 5 link is NOT the only straight axle suspension with a trackbar. Ford and Jeep both used a trackbar on Leaf sprung suspensions And Ford used a trackbar on their Radius arm suspension.

I just mentioned a 90's model Ford F350 with leafs that had death wobble. The trackbar bushings where replaced and the death wobble was fixed. The original bushing had pretty much crumbled and allowed for too mush side to side movement of the axle.

The solid axle vehicles that are most known for death wobble do use a trackbar as the PRIMARY means of centering the axle like is found on the 5 link and radius arm suspensions.
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Unread 09-22-2013, 09:07 AM   #26
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Good discussion guys, Thanks.
So it appears we have one common denominator and that is high tire pressure.
We also know that some Jeeps get DW with loose or worn Trackbar bolts and bushings.

Is it possible that the real culprit is improper placement of welded brackets on differential housing and or vehicle frame.
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Unread 09-22-2013, 09:12 AM   #27
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In my case the Trackbar had the metric bolt so there was plenty of slop to promote DW. 1 week of driving for me is 600-1000klm.
As for the Trackbar, I've had 5 leaf sprung vehicles and not one had a track bar. Nor did they have a stabilizer bar. I also had 3 tractors that had no suspension at all that would routinely get DW on the road.
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Unread 09-22-2013, 09:27 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JTPhoto View Post
I've had 5 leaf sprung vehicles and not one had a track bar. Nor did they have a stabilizer bar. I also had 3 tractors that had no suspension at all that would routinely get DW on the road.
Ford F350's, Jeep wagoner's, Jeep YJ's are a few leaf sprung vehicles that have trackbars. They all have shackles forward of the front axle also.
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Unread 09-22-2013, 09:36 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SLADE
Ford F350's, Jeep wagoner's, Jeep YJ's are a few leaf sprung vehicles that have trackbars. They all have shackles forward of the front axle also.
Hmm that's interesting ... So I assume then that shackles introduce enough lateral slop that a Trackbar is required?
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Unread 09-22-2013, 09:49 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SLADE

Ford F350's, Jeep wagoner's, Jeep YJ's are a few leaf sprung vehicles that have trackbars. They all have shackles forward of the front axle also.
Knowing that alot of those vehicles mentioned dont have power steering. I guess then, that power steering is not a factor that may be overlooked or not considered?
If I ever had a DW in my old YJ I would've just jumped out if it!
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