Diagnosing Death Wobble and Fixing Non-DW Shimmies and Wobbles - Page 11 - JeepForum.com
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Unread 01-22-2012, 11:43 AM   #151
Notchman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by planman View Post
Here is a video of a stock 14mm trackbar bolt in a stock trackbar bracket with a 9/16" hole.

This is why it is important to remove the trackbar to inspect the bracket holes for ovaling.

This is why it is a good idea to replace the stock bolts with 9/16" grade 8 bolts.

This is why it is important to re-torque the trackbar bolts at each oil change interval and after every major offroading trip.

Because dealers rarely remove the trackbar to inspect the bolt holes and replace the stock hardware with 9/16" bolts, they miss the most common source of DW.

YouTube - Death Wobble


It was suggested on another forum to replace the undersized/non-shouldered hardware of the track bar and lower control arms with parts like the Synergy Suspension Jeep JK F911 Hardware Kit (or you can source the individual Grade 8 parts from a supplier such as Fastenal). If this is done prior to an episode of DW then it may be possible to prevent the damage in the sleeves/bracket holes from the threads of the undersized bolt. I'm also wondering if it might be a good idea to replace the attaching hardware for the upper control arms if they are also undersized and don't have a shoulder?

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Unread 01-22-2012, 12:58 PM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Notchman View Post
It was suggested on another forum to replace the undersized/non-shouldered hardware of the track bar and lower control arms with parts like the Synergy Suspension Jeep JK F911 Hardware Kit (or you can source the individual Grade 8 parts from a supplier such as Fastenal). If this is done prior to an episode of DW then it may be possible to prevent the damage in the sleeves/bracket holes from the threads of the undersized bolt. I'm also wondering if it might be a good idea to replace the attaching hardware for the upper control arms if they are also undersized and don't have a shoulder?
The lower control arms and the trackbars are subject to greater forces than the upper control arms.

So, they are less critical for bolt upgrades, but I have not pulled off my uppers to see how much play there is with the stock bolts in the stock bracket bolt holes and bushing/joint bolt sleeves.

The area of concern with regard to the stock bolts is more about how loose they are in the stock bracket bolt holes and bushing/joint bolt sleeves than whether or not they are shouldered.

As far as the Poly kit goes, I don't know if grade F9-11 (grade 9) are better than grade 8 bolts for suspension components. From what I have read, F9-11s are stronger than grade 8s, but they are also more brittle--they would break before they would bend.

F9-11 vs grade 8 for control arms and trackbars is something about which I would like to learn more.



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Unread 01-22-2012, 04:23 PM   #153
Notchman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by planman View Post
The area of concern with regard to the stock bolts is more about how loose they are in the stock bracket bolt holes and bushing/joint bolt sleeves than whether or not they are shouldered.
Planman, the point of the shoulder is to keep the threads from cutting in to either the bracket holes or the interior passage of the bushing of the track bar. With a properly sized fastener there won't be any movement. Even with the size of the original fastener this wouldn't be as much of an issue if the bolt had a shoulder that extended the proper length to prevent thread contact with the bracket. It still wouldn't be correct but I don't think it would cause the bracket or track bar holes to oval out. I think that the combination of the undersize bolt and lack of a shoulder on the bolt causes the damage to occur faster and to be worse once it starts.

If you are concerned about the properties of the F-911 hardware the same thing could be done by substituting the proper size Grade 8 bolts and nuts. The Synergy Suspension Kit contains the following parts:

(8) 9/16-18 UNF x 4.0" long F911 bolts (LCAs)
(4) 9/16-18 UNF x 3.0" long F911 bolts (TBs)
(12) 9/16-18 UNF G9 Stover top lock nuts
(24) 9/16" Extra Thick G9 hardened flat washers

Just replace with Grade 8 hardware of the same dimensions.

As a comparison Grade8 has a Minimum Yield Strength of 130,000 psi and a Minimum Tensile Strength of 150,000 psi. the GARD F-911 fasteners have a Minimum Yield Strength of 140,650 psi and a Minimum Tensile Strength of 159,500 psi (from this PDF from GARD Specialist Inc.). By looking at the Minimum Tensile Strength and the Minimum Yield Strength it appears that the GARD F-911 fasteners are stronger and less brittle.

I personally don't have a JK yet but plan on trading my Golf TDI in for a JK Wrangler Rubicon in September and the first mod I do will be to replace the track bar and lower control arm hardware.
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Unread 02-20-2012, 09:25 AM   #154
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Inspection checklist in post #2 has been updated.
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Unread 02-26-2012, 09:23 PM   #155
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All stock 07 JK with 60k miles on her. Have had DW issues since about the 25-30k mile mark. I just replaced the TB and LCA hardware with the appropriate sized bolts after a short trip to my stealership this past week. I am under a limited warranty still so I wanted to see what I could get out of the dealer even though I had a pretty good idea of what they would tell me. Before I dropped it off I explained in detail what I wanted them to check for, which was basically the check list here. Technician first called me back within 2 hrs of dropping it off and he proceeded to tell me I need new drag link and tie rod because there was "too much play". I asked him if they checked my trackbar to see if they were ovaled out or damaged and he said he "had nothing in his notes". I then had another converstation with him (the same one as originally but not so nice this time) on what exactly I wanted them to look for and what I'm trying to fix, describing in detail basically the checklist in this thread.

He called back later in the day to say that they had inspected everything we talked about and that my TB was fine, nothing ovaled out and the threads were fine. The only thing they could find was that they said there was too much play with the inner/outer drag link and tie rod. Replacement part #s were part #52060048AD (Socket, Drag Link Inner) and #52060052AG (Socket, Tie Rod, Outer, Right). I questioned this and they said nothing else was needed for the recommended work. I am thinking I may need to replace the

Does this sound correct? I want to order the parts but I just want to make sure that is all I need. I have some '12 rubicon wheels/tires that I am wanting to put on but I have to get this issue resolved before hand! I am going back under her this week to check these myself so is there anything specific in terms of the "too much play" that I should check for to determine if there is anything they missed that I may need to replace?
Thanks
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Unread 02-26-2012, 11:15 PM   #156
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The drag link and tie rod ends that have too much play will cause problems.

Have the replace them under warranty--you'll get a free alignment out of it because they will have to do one after the install.

As far as the rest goes, I would specifically ask them about the ball joints, unit bearings, etc.

More than just a couple episodes of DW can damage many other components. However, driving with DW for as long as you have, I'd bet than more than just the drag link and tie rod ends are bad. The lower ball joints are almost surely loose.
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Unread 02-27-2012, 01:36 AM   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Notchman View Post
Planman, the point of the shoulder is to keep the threads from cutting in to either the bracket holes or the interior passage of the bushing of the track bar. With a properly sized fastener there won't be any movement. Even with the size of the original fastener this wouldn't be as much of an issue if the bolt had a shoulder that extended the proper length to prevent thread contact with the bracket. It still wouldn't be correct but I don't think it would cause the bracket or track bar holes to oval out. I think that the combination of the undersize bolt and lack of a shoulder on the bolt causes the damage to occur faster and to be worse once it starts.

If you are concerned about the properties of the F-911 hardware the same thing could be done by substituting the proper size Grade 8 bolts and nuts. The Synergy Suspension Kit contains the following parts:

(8) 9/16-18 UNF x 4.0" long F911 bolts (LCAs)
(4) 9/16-18 UNF x 3.0" long F911 bolts (TBs)
(12) 9/16-18 UNF G9 Stover top lock nuts
(24) 9/16" Extra Thick G9 hardened flat washers

Just replace with Grade 8 hardware of the same dimensions.

As a comparison Grade8 has a Minimum Yield Strength of 130,000 psi and a Minimum Tensile Strength of 150,000 psi. the GARD F-911 fasteners have a Minimum Yield Strength of 140,650 psi and a Minimum Tensile Strength of 159,500 psi (from this PDF from GARD Specialist Inc.). ..
this is what's needed to fix the Track-bar bolt metric-SAE engineering nightmare!
trackbar-bolt.jpg  
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Unread 02-27-2012, 11:46 AM   #158
deathwobbled
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Quote:
Originally Posted by planman View Post
The drag link and tie rod ends that have too much play will cause problems.

Have the replace them under warranty--you'll get a free alignment out of it because they will have to do one after the install.

As far as the rest goes, I would specifically ask them about the ball joints, unit bearings, etc.

More than just a couple episodes of DW can damage many other components. However, driving with DW for as long as you have, I'd bet than more than just the drag link and tie rod ends are bad. The lower ball joints are almost surely loose.
Ok thanks for the info. I will be replacing these myself unfortunately due to the extended warranty I have does not cover these "due to normal wear and tear". Even though the technician said it isn't normal to have to replace these parts this early. B.S. I know but its sad I expected this before hand. I will research up on how to check the ball joints and be doing that shortly. I'd rather replace everything I need to all at once.
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Unread 02-28-2012, 09:25 AM   #159
VoodooTacos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deathwobbled View Post
Ok thanks for the info. I will be replacing these myself unfortunately due to the extended warranty I have does not cover these "due to normal wear and tear". Even though the technician said it isn't normal to have to replace these parts this early. B.S. I know but its sad I expected this before hand. I will research up on how to check the ball joints and be doing that shortly. I'd rather replace everything I need to all at once.
At about 35K my 09 JKU had vertical play in both the knuckle end and the pittman arm ends of the drag link. I replaced both sides myself (with a lot of cursing and both a pickle fork and then a tie rod pusher - Suggest you keep an eye out for these in case you need'em. The pitman arm side was a major biatch). While this seemed to help with the wobble, it certainly didn't solve all my problems. I followed this up with a redo on my toe-in; made a big difference. No issues experienced with ball joints even now (45K).
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Unread 02-29-2012, 09:50 AM   #160
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This thread has been very helpful in helping me understand how the front end works. I have an 08 JKUR and am experiencing some sort of wobble. Starts at about 40mph and stops at about 50. I had never experienced it until changed out my wheels. Went from stock 17 to 17x9 with 4.5 BS. Kept the same 285/70 that I was already running. Would the change in wheel now cause the problem to appear? It didn't have any signs of problem when I dropped it off to have the wheels replaced and it did it as soon as I left the dealership. I have been told on 3 different occasions that the tires are all balanced correctly.

I had someone else look at it and they are saying that I need a new trackbar, drag link and tie rod ends, ball joints and adjustable caster bolts. I guess it is possible for all of this to be bad but why wouldn't I have seen any symptoms until the wheel change??
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Unread 03-01-2012, 06:52 PM   #161
planman
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What you have described is what happens when aftermarket wheels or wheel spacers are run without removing the flimsy stock lug retainer clips. Without removing them, the wheel cannot sit flush against the mounting surface.
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Unread 03-05-2012, 07:29 PM   #162
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It is fairly simple to diagnose and fix.

The only real problems Chrysler have are:
  • they don't train their dealer techs how to deal with it
  • they made the JK a little more prone to it because they used trackbar bolts that are too small
  • they didn't make re-torquing the trackbar bolts at every oil change a recommended maintenance procedure

It would be frivolous to file a lawsuit.
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Unread 03-07-2012, 08:28 PM   #163
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Does anyone know if the JKS track bar will accept the 9/16" bolts at each end?
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Unread 03-08-2012, 07:08 AM   #164
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So a speed dependent DW is more then likely tires?
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Unread 03-08-2012, 07:33 AM   #165
planman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amis8944
So a speed dependent DW is more then likely tires?
A replicatable, speed dependent wobble is more likely wheels (bent or unbalanced), tires (unbalanced, feathered, or out of round), the lug retainer clips (must be removed to run non-stock wheels or wheel spacers), or it can be a bad alignment with too much or too little toe-in or too much caster (more than about 4.7 degrees).

None of this is DW. DW is random and not easily replicatable by simply driving at a given speed.

Post #1 explains much of this.
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