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Unread 06-16-2013, 02:15 PM   #1
Cropduster23
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I was at the local Jeep dealer to pick up a Black Jeep emblem for my grille and noticed a nice looking used 2012 JK Sport S on the lot. It has the S package, power windows/locks, AC, Tubular side steps, Auto, Hardtop w/ deep tint, connectivity/uconnect/SiriusXM, 3.73 axle with Locking differential and anti spin, trailering hitch, and "black appearance group". It has 8400 miles on it and is listed as a carfax 1 owner. The asking price on the lot is $24,690 and the salesman that approached me said that the price was merely a starting point. I thought that price sounded pretty decent but was interested in the details of the vehicle so I had a friend who has unlimited access to carfax pull the report for me:

The carfax shows that the vehicle was a dealer demo in North Carolina and was sold with 6900 miles at an auto auction in Florida. It seems odd to me that a dealer would sell a newer JK at auction unless it has had issues. I am now wondering if the vehicle was wrecked while being used as a dealer demo and fixed without anything being reported to carfax.

I will add that the grille does not fit uniformly and the hood lines on each side are slightly different. It also appears to me that the inner fender on one side is in better condition than the other side,suggesting that it may have been changed. I'm also curious as to why a dealer in Michigan would be buying a vehicle at an auction in Southern Florida. I was pretty much set on buying this thing but now I am apprehensive. Things just aren't adding up to me. Maybe I'm just being ridiculous, but I know for a fact that sometimes dealers will wreck a car off the lot and fix it without reporting anything.

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Unread 06-16-2013, 02:22 PM   #2
austin6137
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Carfax is only as trustworthy as the people reporting to it.
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Unread 06-16-2013, 02:42 PM   #3
Butterjeep
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Sounds odd I'd walk. There are enough JK's out there so why chance it on this one.
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Unread 06-16-2013, 03:06 PM   #4
insaneinline
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Walk away and don't look back

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Unread 06-16-2013, 04:00 PM   #5
brianjw
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I sold cars for a little over a year. Shady management takes demos, drives drunk, wrecks cars, company fixes (no report) and sells and large discount or auction. Just FYI. Seen it more than once. Careered car salespeople in general are worthless scum, especially management.

If its not properly reported it doesn't show on carfax.
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Unread 06-16-2013, 05:20 PM   #6
djm
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Just think about the addeded expenses of first transporting the vehicle to Florida, then to Michigan and they are selling it at a good price?

Chrysler Jeep uses a company called impartialservices.com to deal with it's lemons. People who have their vehicle bought back as a lemon have to sign a confidentiality agreement so they can't talk about it or report it once the transaction is completed. If you go to the web site

http://www.impartialservices.com/our...-vehicles-rav/

one of the services they offer is "title clean up" one can only guess what that means. I do not know for sure, but it sounds like the title gets cleaned up and any individual state mandated branding of the title, such as being a lemon, is removed.

I would run away as fast as you can ! Remember, if it seems too good to be true, it most likely is !
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Unread 06-16-2013, 06:04 PM   #7
pismo61
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Run.The new ones here are selling for about 27,000 with those options.Check out Huntington Beach Jeep here in So.Cal on the web.I used them as leveridge to buy at a dealer closer to me.I know you are in MI.Try toledo jeep I think they had the same type of format on the website also(yark chrysler jeep).They give a low price to start.
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Unread 06-16-2013, 07:13 PM   #8
2Five22
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Run. There are plenty of good vehicles out there that have never been damaged.

Carfax does not catch or collect everything, nor can it ever. There are many ways that a vehicle can be damaged and owners don't always tell insurance companies, much less the police.
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Unread 06-16-2013, 07:27 PM   #9
lesgoff
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As austin6137 said, "Carfax is only as trustworthy as the people reporting to it." Fact: My son had a new vehicle that was nearly totaled (12,000.00 in damages, police report and insurance claim). When he traded the car, he was honest with the sales associated about the accident. However, when the sales associate ran the carfax report the vehicle had a clean report. Bottom line is that not all insurance companies report accidents/damage/repairs to carfax.
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Unread 06-16-2013, 07:56 PM   #10
TheBoss
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brianjw View Post
I sold cars for a little over a year. Shady management takes demos, drives drunk, wrecks cars, company fixes (no report) and sells and large discount or auction. Just FYI. Seen it more than once. Careered car salespeople in general are worthless scum, especially management.

If its not properly reported it doesn't show on carfax.
Yup! Also depending on your state the amount of info that is reported varies. So I wouldn't hold the Carfax in too high of regard.
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Unread 06-16-2013, 08:47 PM   #11
austin6137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lesgoff View Post
As austin6137 said, "Carfax is only as trustworthy as the people reporting to it." Fact: My son had a new vehicle that was nearly totaled (12,000.00 in damages, police report and insurance claim). When he traded the car, he was honest with the sales associated about the accident. However, when the sales associate ran the carfax report the vehicle had a clean report. Bottom line is that not all insurance companies report accidents/damage/repairs to carfax.
I know my buddy has a Chevy cobalt and its been smashed twice almost totaled both times. He had his ex girlfriend run the car fax like 6 months later cause she worked for a dealership at the time and nothing showed up so idk if it ever got reported by his insurance company.
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Unread 06-16-2013, 08:59 PM   #12
CooterTKE
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I had a car that had a clean title but was severly wrecked when I got hit by a delivery van. The company was self insured so nothing ever hit carfax on it.
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Unread 06-17-2013, 05:11 AM   #13
rha600
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carfax is mostly useless.
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Unread 06-17-2013, 08:04 AM   #14
SoK66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djm View Post
Just think about the addeded expenses of first transporting the vehicle to Florida, then to Michigan and they are selling it at a good price?

Chrysler Jeep uses a company called impartialservices.com to deal with it's lemons. People who have their vehicle bought back as a lemon have to sign a confidentiality agreement so they can't talk about it or report it once the transaction is completed. If you go to the web site

http://www.impartialservices.com/our...-vehicles-rav/

one of the services they offer is "title clean up" one can only guess what that means. I do not know for sure, but it sounds like the title gets cleaned up and any individual state mandated branding of the title, such as being a lemon, is removed.

I would run away as fast as you can ! Remember, if it seems too good to be true, it most likely is !
Good advice. If it has been in a crash and that fact is not disclosed to you by the seller he's on the hook for misrepresentation. But, you'd have to prove it and that might not be easy.

I used to run customer service operations for a Euro luxury car brand. Impartial Services is a newer org that handles Lemon Law processing for manufacturers, who frankly have dumb-sized and outsourced their workforces to the point they no longer have anyone working for them that's subject matter expert enough to handle this kind of transaction. They're going to be incentivised to reduce costs of a Lemon transaction in all phases of the process, particularly reasale. "Title cleanup" appears to be a buzz phrase for what consumer organizations call "lemon laundering", which is actually interstate fraud and a Federal crime.

In many States if a manufacturer buys a car back the title must be branded with something like "Lemon Law Buyback". Subsequent buyers must be advised of the buyback and disclosure forms signed. Naturally, this depresses the vehicle's resale value, despite the fact most so-called "lemons" are usually low mileage rigs a particular dealer just couldn't repair, or one the dealer let sit for more than 30 days waiting for backordered parts, etc. They usually make choice used cars, IF, that title brand can be removed and all evidence of the buyback hidden from subsequent owners. So, how would one do that?

The manufacturer buys the car back in one State, takes possession and titles it with a "Lemon Buyback" brand as required. The vehicle is then transported to another State, ostensibly for "rectification", meanwhile the titling paperwork is sent by arrangement through a dealer in a third State and a new title is issued. (This is conspiracy, etc.) Virtually every time this is done the initial State's "Lemon" title brand will be washed (i.e., "laundered") from the new title. Without the "Lemon Law Buyback" branding subsequent buyers will be no more the wiser. Unless someone physically tracks the movement of the vehicle and the titling paperwork and discovers the disparity, no one's the wiser and the manufacturer gets away with defrauding the subsequent buyer(s).

SO, what does this have to do with Carfax? Any official registering of a buyback will be reported in State #1 and Carfax SHOULD pick it up. Regardless, Carfax will pick up subsequent auction activity, and any unusually low mileage vehicle is suspect. If the buyer simply asks the question "Is this a Lemon Law buyback?" and the seller says no, the seller is on the hook. Same for crash damage, salvage, etc. Use Carfax as a tool, but shop wisely and don't believe a word the dealer says. If he says "No" to Lemon Law or crash damage, ask for it in writing. If he balks, walk away.
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Unread 06-17-2013, 03:58 PM   #15
Cropduster23
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The situation you describe involving 3 states, low miles, an auction sale and a relatively low asking price fit this Jeep to a T. Just out of curiosity I pulled the car faxes on the 5 other used wranglers that they have on the lot. 2 were locally owned trade ins while the other 3 all show a history of being sold at an auction and the exact same 3 states being involved. Sounds like two dealers may have an agreement between each other or something...

I think I will see if the salesman will put in writing that the Jeep has never been a buy back or in an accident. I am not going to buy the thing at this point, but I'm interested in seeing what he will do. Thanks for the advice.
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