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Unread 12-28-2012, 04:01 PM   #46
rirrgang
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderstrike View Post
Understood, but cannot help thinking all the cars I owned before had 10W-30and rarely used/burn oil.

Here in Alabama it doesn't get cold like North, so I will probably switch to 10W-30.
Yes, and I used to collect and restore mid 80's BMW's those ran 10w-40.
It's not the oil that makes these 3.8s burn oil. The harder you drive it the more it will use.

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Unread 12-28-2012, 05:04 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rirrgang View Post
Yes, and I used to collect and restore mid 80's BMW's those ran 10w-40.
It's not the oil that makes these 3.8s burn oil. The harder you drive it the more it will use.
I do drive hard. Fast starts/quick acceleration.
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Unread 12-31-2012, 01:16 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rirrgang View Post
Yes, and I used to collect and restore mid 80's BMW's those ran 10w-40.
It's not the oil that makes these 3.8s burn oil. The harder you drive it the more it will use.
Towing 10K+ with my diesel pickup uses less oil..................And I am not afraid to stand on the loud pedal.
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Unread 12-31-2012, 05:45 PM   #49
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I don't drive mine to save oil. I drive it to make it last to 400k miles. I'm going to milk the unlimited warranty for all it's got.
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Unread 01-02-2013, 07:15 AM   #50
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Our 2011 JK was burning over a quart in less than 1,000 miles when running 5w-20 as is recommended in the manual. Switched to 5w-30 two months ago and haven't lost a drop since. I was told they only switched to 5w-20 to try and squeeze another 1-2 mpg out of the 3.8l engine, and it had run fine for years on 5w-30. No problems so far and it's an easy fix.
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Unread 01-02-2013, 10:48 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by motechsc View Post
Our 2011 JK was burning over a quart in less than 1,000 miles when running 5w-20 as is recommended in the manual. Switched to 5w-30 two months ago and haven't lost a drop since. I was told they only switched to 5w-20 to try and squeeze another 1-2 mpg out of the 3.8l engine, and it had run fine for years on 5w-30. No problems so far and it's an easy fix.
Welcome to the forum, I am glad you now burn less oil. I am curious, did you change brand of oil? synthetic/conventional? any other factors?


(the following is not aimed at motechsc or anyone in particular)

Also, the CAFE standards aren't per vehicle. They are a formula averaged over all the entire fleet of vehicles sold. Although, the definition changed last year to account for vehicle "footprint", it's still an average over thousands and thousands of vehicles. (as are EPA estimates, etc.)

So any difference in fuel economy in an individual's experience is more likely due to other factors than changing oil weight.

I have a very hard time believing that simply changing the weight from 5w-20 to 5w-30 makes an absolute difference, especially regarding oil consumption.
I don't buy it for a number of reasons.

First, viscosity grades are not absolute values, they are ranges. At operating temp, one brand's xw-20 may actually be "thicker" than another brand's xw-30.

Second, conventional verses synthetic: some synthetics pass the tests for multi-weight oil even though they are actually single-weight.

Third, additive packs and viscosity improvers. They vary wildly in quality and effectiveness between brands and even between formulations within a brand. Many synthetics have no need for VIs and therefore have a higher concentration of detergents, etc in their pack.

Fourth, changing from 5w20 to 5w30? why no oil consumption while still warming up to operating temp? They are both rated 5 when you cold-start. it takes a while to get up to operating temp. Did the engine only burn oil when it was hot?

It's all way more complex then I am making it seem. So just stating an oil viscosity rating is simply not giving enough information. Brand, formulation, and synthetic or conventional are all just as important to know about as viscosity rating.
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Unread 01-02-2013, 01:08 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiblet View Post
Welcome to the forum, I am glad you now burn less oil. I am curious, did you change brand of oil? synthetic/conventional? any other factors?


(the following is not aimed at motechsc or anyone in particular)

Also, the CAFE standards aren't per vehicle. They are a formula averaged over all the entire fleet of vehicles sold. Although, the definition changed last year to account for vehicle "footprint", it's still an average over thousands and thousands of vehicles. (as are EPA estimates, etc.)

So any difference in fuel economy in an individual's experience is more likely due to other factors than changing oil weight.

I have a very hard time believing that simply changing the weight from 5w-20 to 5w-30 makes an absolute difference, especially regarding oil consumption.
I don't buy it for a number of reasons.

First, viscosity grades are not absolute values, they are ranges. At operating temp, one brand's xw-20 may actually be "thicker" than another brand's xw-30.

Second, conventional verses synthetic: some synthetics pass the tests for multi-weight oil even though they are actually single-weight.

Third, additive packs and viscosity improvers. They vary wildly in quality and effectiveness between brands and even between formulations within a brand. Many synthetics have no need for VIs and therefore have a higher concentration of detergents, etc in their pack.

Fourth, changing from 5w20 to 5w30? why no oil consumption while still warming up to operating temp? They are both rated 5 when you cold-start. it takes a while to get up to operating temp. Did the engine only burn oil when it was hot?

It's all way more complex then I am making it seem. So just stating an oil viscosity rating is simply not giving enough information. Brand, formulation, and synthetic or conventional are all just as important to know about as viscosity rating.
In the shop I work at we have stopped JK oil consumption on many early JK's by just by simply changing from 5w20 to 5w30,same oil brand(Kendall) and both semi synthetic.I've also stopped many diff seal leaks by simply changing out synthteic gear oil with dino gear oil of similar weight.
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Unread 01-02-2013, 02:20 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by tjkj2002 View Post
In the shop I work at we have stopped JK oil consumption on many early JK's by just by simply changing from 5w20 to 5w30,same oil brand(Kendall) and both semi synthetic.I've also stopped many diff seal leaks by simply changing out synthteic gear oil with dino gear oil of similar weight.
I believe you. I just don't believe it is simply the viscosity that makes the difference. It may be something in the additive pack, I don't know. Especially if it is a leak issue (like your leaking diff seals example).

I have no idea how Kendall formulates their oils or if those two weights you mention start with the same base stock and differ only in additives or mixing ratios or what.

Some folks change their oil weight and stop the oil consumption, for others it doesn't stop. (of course there are many reasons to consume oil unrelated to the oil itself) But I'd like to see someone who did stop consuming oil by changing the oil weight try several different brands of the new weight and see if it still stops the consumption. (but even then there are too many variables)

My point is only that the argument "5w20 is too thin" and 5w30 is the solution to consumption (while it may occasionally work) doesn't stand up to scrutiny. There is too much variation in the range of measurement that results in and oil's "weight" and way way too many (secret) formulations of oils and variables in user applications.
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Unread 01-02-2013, 04:53 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Jiblet View Post
I believe you. I just don't believe it is simply the viscosity that makes the difference. It may be something in the additive pack, I don't know. Especially if it is a leak issue (like your leaking diff seals example).

I have no idea how Kendall formulates their oils or if those two weights you mention start with the same base stock and differ only in additives or mixing ratios or what.

Some folks change their oil weight and stop the oil consumption, for others it doesn't stop. (of course there are many reasons to consume oil unrelated to the oil itself) But I'd like to see someone who did stop consuming oil by changing the oil weight try several different brands of the new weight and see if it still stops the consumption. (but even then there are too many variables)

My point is only that the argument "5w20 is too thin" and 5w30 is the solution to consumption (while it may occasionally work) doesn't stand up to scrutiny. There is too much variation in the range of measurement that results in and oil's "weight" and way way too many (secret) formulations of oils and variables in user applications.
Unless you have some really bad internal engine problems oil consumption is only taking place operating temps and mostly when you let off the throttle and your engine is producing alot of vaccum,hence why the 5w30 oil reduces consumption versus 5w20.Not to mention the 3.8 was designed for 5w30 engine oil with 10w30 in hotter temps.
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Unread 01-02-2013, 05:13 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiblet View Post
I believe you. I just don't believe it is simply the viscosity that makes the difference. It may be something in the additive pack, I don't know. Especially if it is a leak issue (like your leaking diff seals example).

I have no idea how Kendall formulates their oils or if those two weights you mention start with the same base stock and differ only in additives or mixing ratios or what.

Some folks change their oil weight and stop the oil consumption, for others it doesn't stop. (of course there are many reasons to consume oil unrelated to the oil itself) But I'd like to see someone who did stop consuming oil by changing the oil weight try several different brands of the new weight and see if it still stops the consumption. (but even then there are too many variables)

My point is only that the argument "5w20 is too thin" and 5w30 is the solution to consumption (while it may occasionally work) doesn't stand up to scrutiny. There is too much variation in the range of measurement that results in and oil's "weight" and way way too many (secret) formulations of oils and variables in user applications.

Except it works in a lot of cases. The US is the only place the wrangler is sold that 5w-20 is recommended. Everywhere else the manual reccomends 5w-30.
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Unread 01-02-2013, 07:55 PM   #56
Jiblet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjkj2002 View Post
Unless you have some really bad internal engine problems oil consumption is only taking place operating temps and mostly when you let off the throttle and your engine is producing alot of vaccum,hence why the 5w30 oil reduces consumption versus 5w20.Not to mention the 3.8 was designed for 5w30 engine oil with 10w30 in hotter temps.
good points, especially about the vacuum. but also, oil formulations have improved greatly since the 1990 and so has production of the 3.8.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jstrubberg View Post
Except it works in a lot of cases. The US is the only place the wrangler is sold that 5w-20 is recommended. Everywhere else the manual reccomends 5w-30.
Agreed. It definitely does work in a lot of cases. I'm not saying don't use 5w-30. (the US 5w20 recommendation is probably more politics than engineering)

I just think the "why" it works probably has more to do with brand/formulation (and synth/conventional) than with simply being Xw30 weight oil.

The viscosity of some major brand 5w20 oils at 100 deg C averages between 8-9 cSt., 5w30 about 10.5 cSt., 10w30 about 10.3 cSt.

The SAE grade range (at 100C) for grade 20 is 5.6-9.29; for grade 30 it's 9.3-12.9cSt

There has to be more to it than just a small change in viscosity at operating temperatures. IMHO.

Changing to a different oil has worked for some people. But I suspect it is something else in the bottle other than the 30 on the label.
Maybe the people who had good results reducing consumption by changing the grade of their oil could post what brand/formula they used before and after, their OCI, etc. Maybe its Brand X that helps more so than the grade?

Here's some data from the oil companies

Some major brand grades and their viscosity at 100C (cSt)

M1 5w20 8.9
M1 5w30 11
M1 T&SUV5w30 10.9
M1 10w30 10.1
M1EP 5w20 8.9
M1EP 5w30 10.6
M1EP 10w30 10.2

Penn Plat
0w20 8.39
5w20 8.48
5w30 10.3
10w30 10.5

FormulaShell
5w20 8.16
5w30 10.75
10w30 10.5
Shell Synth
5w20 8.5
5w30 10.52
10w30 10.3

QS synblnd
5w20 8
5w30 10.6
10w30 10.4
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Unread 01-02-2013, 08:35 PM   #57
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With comparably equipped 2013 Rubi costing $37,800, it's terrible my 2009 uses oil. I really need to keep my JK for for long time.
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Auto, Power, Remote Start, Towing Package, MyGig Navigation with Lockpick, Rear View Camera, B&M 70268 Transmission Cooler, Aeroforce Interceptor, Valentine 1, Tub Sound-Deadened with Raamat and Ensolite, Hard Top Heat Insulated with 1/2" Styrofoam Insulation, Bilstein Shocks Front & Rear, PIAA Dual Horns, IPF 920H4 Headlights.
Protection: Skid Row Engine Skid, Lower Control Arm skid & Evaporator Skid; Rock Hard Gas Tank Skid; Warn Stainless Steel Differential Skid Front & Rear.
Recovery Gear: Warn 9.5Ti Winch, 11,000# Pull-Pal.
Communication: Uniden 520XL CB, Diesel External Speaker, 3' FireStik Whip.
Shrockworks Mid-width Front Bumper with Warn 9.5Ti Winch -- Ordered 7/17/2009; Bumper Received 12/4/2009.
1" Coil Spacer Front & 1/2" Coil Spacer Rear restored OEM Rake.
4x4 Trips:
Moab - 4/2006, 5/2008, 4/2009, 5/2011, 4/2013
Ouray - 8/2007
Rubicon - 9/2008
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Unread 01-02-2013, 10:14 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiblet View Post
Some major brand grades and their viscosity at 100C (cSt)

M1 5w20 8.9
M1 5w30 11
M1 T&SUV5w30 10.9
M1 10w30 10.1
M1EP 5w20 8.9
M1EP 5w30 10.6
M1EP 10w30 10.2

Penn Plat
0w20 8.39
5w20 8.48
5w30 10.3
10w30 10.5

FormulaShell
5w20 8.16
5w30 10.75
10w30 10.5
Shell Synth
5w20 8.5
5w30 10.52
10w30 10.3

QS synblnd
5w20 8
5w30 10.6
10w30 10.4
Looking at those #'s it clearly shows the 5w30 having greater viscosity then 5w20 in every case you listed by at least 2.That could be enough to reduce the oil consumption in every case.

Just remember it takes alot of $$$ to redesign a engine internally to run a different grade of oil.If you look at the part books you will notice virtually no change in internal parts for the 3.8 from 10 years ago to now(last 2 digits will change but due to supplier).They just slapped 5w20 on the oil cap and US version of the owners manual to satisfy the federal government mpg standards which other countries do not have thus they still recommend 5w30 oil.Thinner oil requires tighter tolerances.
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Unread 01-05-2013, 12:26 PM   #59
newguywrangler
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i can tell you from expierence that the 5w30 does work, and i found out by accident. Bought the wrong oil and didnt notice until after i filled....best mistake ive ever made
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Unread 01-05-2013, 05:04 PM   #60
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New to this forum. I'm glad I'm not the only one with this problem. my 2010 is burning between 3-4 quarts every 3000, which is how often I change it. I check it every week. my dealer has an open case for me on this and my next oil change they are going to do a blow by test?? I just want it fixed! My warranty is only up to 50,000 because I have the right hand drive...any suggestions??
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