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Wobble Issues!

3K views 32 replies 8 participants last post by  4Hamsters 
#1 ·
Hi guys/gals,

I have read about bump steer/death wobble for a couple days now and have done a few of the suggested things but I still have my wobble so I need some help.

Background:

I have a 2003 TJ 4 cylinder with half doors, no backseat, and bikini top. I recently installed an RC 2.5" lift. I also installed a new steering stablilizer and the rear trackbar relocation bracket. After the lift I did some measurements and I have 3" up front and 3+" in the back, most likely because the Jeep is so light.

After the lift I got the DW, damn :brickwall ... I had a small, very slight shimmy before the lift but now it's much worse. It's not too bad so I would characterize it as more of a wobble, but don't get me wrong, it has scared every passenger of mine! It occurs around 45 (+- 5) mph and is agitated by turns and bumps.

I had it aligned after the lift, and the tires balanced. I got under there while someone turned the wheel and didn't see any "extra" play. The track bolt on the frame (common DW culprit) is nice and snug and there's no extra movement. When the Jeep was sitting with wheels forward and parked, I noticed the tie rod makes a knocking sound when I rotated in forward and back with my hand. Should that be happening? Is it possible the bushings are shot? They look good but maybe a little squashed.

I also measured the alignment of my front axle and there is a 3/4" difference between either side of the Jeep ( the extra is on the driver side, as expected with a lift ). So that means if I shifted the axle over 3/8" to the passenger side it would be centered under the Jeep. Could this cause the wobble? Would it be worth an adjustable trackbar?

I'm having the axle U-joints checked at the end of the week but I assumed that wouldn't be the "main" cause of my wobble since it's occurring at 45 mph and I thought U-joints only popped and things at low speed turns.

Someone please steer me in the right direction, no pun intended!

Thanks ! - Shaun
 
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#2 ·
What do you mean there is no "extra" play in the track bar? Any visible play is extra. Did you loosen the control arm bolts when you did the lift? If so did you lower the Jeep so the weight was on the axles before you tightened them? If you didn't loosen them when you put on the lift, you may want to loosen them with the jeep on the ground, bounce the jeep a little to let the bushings settle, then re-torque them all to spec. Did you torque everything to spec?

There should be no "klunking" in the tie rod ends. Those are not bushings you see on the TREs, they are grease boots. The TREs are actually a ball and socket type joint, if they are klunking they are probably worn.

The axle being off center should not cause DW or affect your alignment. An adjustable track bar will allow you to center the axle, but there are issues with most adjustable track bars hitting things when used with shorter lifts. See here: tj front adjustable track bars for 0-3.5", does yours hit or fit?
 
#3 ·
Thanks for the reply! I know the subject of DW is a beaten horse, I apologize.

1) I didn't loosen the control arms when installing the lift. Do you thinking I should loosen and retorque anyway?

2) You're right, I misspoke when I said, "There's no extra play in the track bar". It really doesn't move at all.



When I rotate the light blue colored in this image labeled "Drag Link" I hear a knock or clunk sound. When I rotate the yellow colored rod labeled "Tie Rod" I also hear the same sound. These are easily rotated so I'm guessing the joints are bad like you said.

So should I buy replacements for these TRE's?
 
#4 ·
I had this same issue with my 06 LJ, it ended up that my tires were way out of balance, 2 of the 4 were at least 4-5 ounces out of balance, take it to a 4x4 shop to have them balanced, I found out that some tire shops dont have a heavy enough wheel balancing machine, the weight of the tire on the lighter duty balancers can throw the machine off, and it makes it seem that the tires are balanced. Hope this helps!
 
#5 ·
A good balance will probably help to reduce your shimmy, along with rotating your tires. But for a tire shimmy to develop into DW, something else has to be loose or worn. Unless the tires are extremely out of balance.

I would definately check into the TREs, it sounds like they could be bad. If you have someone turn the wheel back and forth, with the tires on the ground, do they appear to be moving up and down? Hold on to them as close to the joint as possible to see if you can feel any kind of popping. They should feel fairly smooth as they cycle.
 
#6 ·
Flhockeyguy - I had the tires balanced at a Dunn Tire, probably on a light duty balancer. I'm only running 30's at the moment (more worried about the wobble than bigger tires for now), do you think a tire that size would require a "road force" balancer?

MJBinNM - I'll have someone rotate the wheel tonight and I'll pay close attention to the TRE's. If they're moving up and down they're probably bad? I sometimes here a pop when I turn the wheel all the way to either side, it happens just as the wheels get to about fully turned, and only sometimes. It can happen standing still or on low speed tight turns, like parking. I suspected the axle U-joints but it may just be the TRE's making that sound?

Thanks for all the responses, I'll be reporting back with what I find tonight ...

Shaun
 
#15 ·
Flhockeyguy - I had the tires balanced at a Dunn Tire, probably on a light duty balancer. I'm only running 30's at the moment (more worried about the wobble than bigger tires for now), do you think a tire that size would require a "road force" balancer?

MJBinNM - I'll have someone rotate the wheel tonight and I'll pay close attention to the TRE's. If they're moving up and down they're probably bad? I sometimes here a pop when I turn the wheel all the way to either side, it happens just as the wheels get to about fully turned, and only sometimes. It can happen standing still or on low speed tight turns, like parking. I suspected the axle U-joints but it may just be the TRE's making that sound?

Thanks for all the responses, I'll be reporting back with what I find tonight ...

Shaun
Road force will usually only work on smaller light duty tires, I had to have mine static balanced. my stock 30's had the bump steer issues, but with a 3.25" lift and 33's, it all went away with a good alignment done, and the tires being properly balanced. I know it seems like im beating the balance thing to death, but I was amazed how much it made a difference.
 
#7 ·
Well tonight I took a real good look at all the suspension/steering parts and everything is TIGHT ... I mean it all looks good.

Only worn component(s) are the front axle u-joints ... and let me tell ya, they're shot! I can rotate one wheel while the other remains unmoved for a good amount of time. On top of that they're free to move in and out of the axle a little. The driver side is by far the worst side. The PO must've had it in 4 a lot on pavement or something.

This may sound dumb, but is that a possible cause of my wobble?

- Shaun
 
#9 ·
The tie rod is in pretty good shape actually, I had a friend turn the wheel back and forth while I held the end and they were pretty smooth.

My thought is, I had the shimmy before the lift but it was real slight, but now it's worse. I think because the Jeep is up on larger coils with a stiffer steering stabilizers now, whatever was causing the shimmy isn't being masked as well as it was. Since the U's are able to move in and out of the axle, I'm thinking that when that happens while driving, it pushes on the wheel which sends it wobbling.

I go out of town in a day and I'm having the U-joints put in while I'm gone. I should be back on the 25th so we'll see if that is the cure. Just thought this was an interesting case because out of all the DW stuff I've read it has never come down to bad U-joints. But in my case, bad = dangerous!

Thanks for the help guys, when I get back I'll post if the DW has left...
-Shaun
 
#12 ·
I had the death wobble when I put the RC 2.5 lift on my Jeep too. I was running the stock 28"tires for a couple of weeks with bad death wobble on the highway. When I went to my 32"x11.50 tires on 15x10 wheels the death wobble went away. I think it the larger tires, wider stance, and wider contact patch on the ground helped remove the play/rebounding when I would hit a bump or chuck hole.
I guess it could have been a tire balancing problem with the stock tires/wheels but I did not want to spend the money on a balancing with my new tires/wheels on the way.
My Jeep only has 19k miles on it and I have absolutly no worn parts.
 
#17 ·
Are you using the same wheels and tires you used before the lift? If so, AND if you rotated them often, I would point my finger at the alignment. You have a slight toe-in.

If you are using a different set of wheels and tires, are they new or did you buy them used? If the wheels and tires are new and balanced, I would point my finger at the alignment. You have a slight toe-in. If the tires are used, were they marked before taken off the donor vehicle? If the used tires weren't rotated often, the tires will have to go to the same location - driver front to driver front, passenger front to passenger front, etc. If the tires have been sitting for a while where they're exposed to the elements, the belts in the tires may have settled out of round or the belts may have shifted. I learned this from experience unfortunately. :( In this case, the tires are useless.

Adjusting the front trackbar is fairly easy. Let me know if you want to go that route and do it yourself. I can point you in the right direction.
 
#18 ·
Tjindiana - I can get into 2,4,R fine with my t-case dropped so I decided to leave it on. I still don't know how that could contribute to DW. Could you explain a little more?

Flhockeyguy - Ya I understand about the balance, but the U-Joints are awful and I just had the 30 in tires balanced a couple days ago and they weren't that out. What sort of balancing do you recommend?
 
#19 ·
j niko - Well I'll be able to agree or disagree with you in a week!

romang - I want to point at the alignment as well because they are the same wheels and tires as before the lift. I've read that I should have 1/8th inch toed in. Is that correct? I measure from the outside of the tread on the passenger side tire to the outside of the tread on the driver side tire in the front, then repeat in the back. I subtract the front from the back and I should have 1/8th, is that correct? I'm pretty sure this is what I have.


Balance - done 2 days ago
Alignment - was done a week ago and should be 1/8th, I double checked as well
TRE's - seem good
Track bar bolts - all tight, no play at all

So all Isay right now is that the U's are bad. They're a problem and I know by winter I'm going to need to replace them because I'll need the 4 wheel.
 
#20 ·
oh and one more thing to add ....

The rims are after market and are lugcentric. I know the factory stock rims are hubcentric (that is, they have the lip in the inside hole). The after market rims that have been on the Jeep the whole time do not have the lip and are therefor, lugcentric.

Is it okay to have the lugcentric rims on the Jeep?
 
#21 ·
Incorrect driveline angles will cause vibration. It does not contribute to DW.

Right now your front wheels are fighting with each other. One rolls straight while the other rolls towards the center. This goes back and forth and this is where you get your DW.

If you have toe-in (too much toe-in) , you get DW.
If you have toe-out, it feels like you're wandering as you steer.

Get your hands dirty and adjust the trackbar yourself. Rotate it in the direction where the front of the tires move outward. Adjust it half-a-turn and then test drive. If the DW exists but is less than it was, adjust the trackbar another half-a-turn. If the DW is even less, do the same thing over again. If you get lucky and the DW goes away, then you're done.

But if it now feels like it wanders as you steer and your tires screech as you turn, you have toe-out. Turn the trackbar the opposite direction.

BTW, DW also comes from bad ball joints (front).
 
#22 ·
OK...

Get your front end up off the tires.

Find a reference point close to the center of each of the front tires, place a piece of masking tape on it, and then mark the point with a sharp pencil. Make a nice vertical sharp line. You do not have to be in the exact center of the tire, just close.

Using those reference points, rotate each tire making them level with each other and the center of the wheel horizontally. If the point on the driver side is 25 inches from the floor, then the point on the passenger side has to be the same. The points should be pointing forward away from the front of the Jeep.

Measure the distance between the two reference points and right it down on a piece of paper. Measure it with the help of a friend to get a better read.

Now rotate the tires where the reference point is now on the opposite side. If you had the points facing forward, now they should be facing backward towards the back of the Jeep.

Make sure the points are level with each other and at the same height you had them when you measured the first time. If they were 25" in the front, now they have to be 25" in the back.

Measure the distance between the two points again in their new position and let me know what you find!
 
#25 · (Edited)
I don't think the Trans drop kit cause and DW problem.


I think my problem was with castor angle. The alignment shop can't change that unles you have adjustable control arms.

My caster angle was lower than recommended after I did the lift. The Jeep was riding on the front of the tires. Its hard to explain caster and maybe somebody can do a better job than I.

When I put my much larger tires on It made my death wobble go away. The angle may not have actually changed with the tires but the larger contact patch and the wider stance made the Jeep react differently.
 
#27 ·
Caster is integrated into vehicles to compensate for the crown in the road. TJINDIANA is right that it cant be corrected unless you have adjustable arms. However, when your caster is checked, your right side should be at least .5 degrees greater than the right side. as long as you are at that .5 degrees greater then your caster is correct.
 
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