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What if I don't lift my rig?

2K views 29 replies 14 participants last post by  biffgnar 
#1 ·
Think I scored a solid '01 TJ about a month ago. PO knew what he was doing - tires and shocks, and it runs like a top just like he said. He never lifted it. Undercarriage is stock. I've run it hard I think.

What if I just replaced the shocks and springs and put some new tires on it for the time being? I've had my crash course in all things lifts, tire size, gears, SYEs, CVs, drive lines, axles, traction, lockers, lsd and all the little cheats and band aids too. I've taken it to the top Jeep builder in town, who I liked very much. He's going to suggest a sequenced plan and variable budget for all of the above. 3" max. Don't know what parts he's going to propose. I've also talked to a guy at the new 4 Wheel Parts in town. Actually liked him very much too and appreciated his approach. He of course, is 100% behind the house brand - Rubicon Express at 3.5". Haven't formed an opinion on RE yet. Feel free to opine. I don't care who you are, it's all expensive as ****. I've even been on a legit rock crawling run already and have seen how all of this stuff works on the trail and how folks, men and some bad *** chicks drive this stuff. I think I get the gist of it all.

I need tires. I'm running worn out 31" Mickey Thompson Baja Claws of some vintage or another. PO loved 'em and recommended them again. I like the Cooper STT Pros. KYB gas shocks are shot. Springs are stock. Are they shot after 16 years? So what if I just put some good shocks and maybe fresh springs on there with new tires? I think the Rusty Cage would perk right up with that alone. I'm wondering if I can run 32s on the stock 3.07 gears for phase one. I'm not opposed to fresh 31s. I'd like to shore up the front end first and then work my way back replacing the undercarriage. R&R all of the existing bits and pieces and regular maintenance items. Make sure it's solid from the ground up. And then maybe lift it down the road after I've really gotten to know it - when I'm ready to pop for gears, bigger tires, drive lines and all the big ticket items. What would be wrong with that plan? I'm not interested in building a rock crawler. I want a solid capable a trail rig that's gonna get me out and back.

My buddy has a nice build. 3.25" combo OME/JKS BL&MML. 33s. Lots of good hardware underneath. G2 D44, all the bells and whistles. 4.88 gears - I couldn't believe the get up and go. A solid well-done build. We parked them head-to-head last night so we could compare and analyze everything side by side. Then I drove his for the first time. Drove like a tank compared to mine. High performance, but I was stunned at what a brute it was to drive. Fun for sure, but necessary? Mine drives really well, feels good. Needs tightening up for sure, no question. But it just drives so much nicer. It's really made me wonder if I want to go down that road right out of the gate . . .

Thanks for reading. Would welcome your thoughts on any part that strikes you.
 
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#2 ·
If you plan on lifting it at all in the near future, I wouldn't spend the money to upgrade the stock shocks and springs, unless you score a cheap/free set from someone who swapped them when they had low mileage on them. I gave away a full set with 15,000 miles on them.
 
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#3 ·
I believe stock xj shocks and springs will give a Tj about 2" of lift you can find these for cheap.
If your rig is capable of wheeling the way you want it to, you may consider larger tires and just some clearance mods ie tube fenders and such. There are a lot of *****in rigs with the low center of gravity thing going on. If you are happy with the way your rig rides\ drives, it will remain that way until you start changing things. Mods require constant adjustment.

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#4 ·
#1 is your rig a daily driver or a weekend toy? This should be the determining factor in your build. If you plan to use it exclusively off road build it that way. If it is a d\d you should also keep that in mind. I have owned My 98 TJ for 2 1\2 months and it has gone from delivering lighthouse magazine ( got it from a Jehovah's witness) to delivering all American beatdowns. You can do very cool things to your Jeep for relatively cheap. But you have to have a direction on your build. BTW I need tires too. 305\75\16 on ford ranger wheels lol.


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#14 ·
Lots of good input here.

I'm of the mind to not lift it or spend additional money if you don't have to. For some your comment of you don't want to build a rock crawler but you want a solid trail rig would contradict; but of course that's how you define a trail rig. As an example I would not define a "trail rig" as a daily driver but that's me.

I had my 04' rubicon basically stock for 8 years before I lifted it, and I ran some amazing trails and had tons of fun but started to hit limits if where I could go.

To freshen things up and give me practice of working on my TJ I first put on 2013 JKU springs and shocks and it drove like a brand new jeep without giving me any lift. I paired this with Metalcloak fenders and a 1.25" BL to run 35" tires but you can just put on 32" OEM JK takeoffs provided you use wheel adapters (5x4.5 to 5x5) or change out rims. You can find deals on the JK stuff on Craigslist.

It seems like you have a good plan, take your time and do ALOT of research before pulling the trigger on anything. Good luck
 
#15 ·
My two cents. I've had 3 TJ's so far, the first two were stock, D44 rear, 3.73 gear, no lift and 29" tires. One here in the states and one in Australia and I loved them both and enjoyed driving them, like little off road sports cars. I bought a third one when I came back to the states. Its lifted 2" and 32's on it with the 3.73 D44. Need to go to 4.56 to get my power back, but I am going to sell it, I just don't enjoy the ride as much. And trust me, its far smoother riding than any of the others I had. Its just doesn't feel as nimble ans as agile as the other two and I have been through every part of the suspension. Like I say, it is smoother riding, but I miss that nimble feel. So I am going to be looking for another, bone stock.

Get your tires, go to a better rear gear and you might just enjoy it the way it is.

PS, I only do light trails and around town and country driving.
 
#16 ·
... He of course, is 100% behind the house brand - Rubicon Express at 3.5". Haven't formed an opinion on RE yet. Feel free to opine. ...
Is he with 4WheelParts? Then he's paid to make that recommendation. Short stiff springs with bad shocks. Don't use RE.

My buddy has a nice build. 3.25" combo OME/JKS BL&MML. 33s. Lots of good hardware underneath. G2 D44, all the bells and whistles. 4.88 gears - I couldn't believe the get up and go. A solid well-done build....
This is a much better direction to look towards.

Your 3.07 gears are unfortunate even with stock size tires. Plan on your finals desired tire size and save up for a regear.
 
#18 ·
Thanks for taking the time to reply fellas. I know it was a long post with lots of angles and questions so I appreciate it.

Fortunately, I've a nice pickup truck so the Jeep isn't required to be a DD. I really do like tooling around in it though and I don't have a long commute so I'm going to drive it regardless. It's also definitely a summer rig for the foreseeable future as it's topless and I don't plan on changing that anytime soon. I live in the high desert with both dry rocky desert trails and alpine mountain trails readily available. Moab is within a day's drive . . . So when I say trail rig I mean that I want to be able to navigate established routes with typical moderate obstacles like rocks, ruts, inclines, stream crossings, etc. Challenging, but not death defying. Rock crawling to me is more about bumping your tires up against a decidedly vertically oriented obstacle and having to goose your way up and over a significant stepped elevation change. I'm up for a little within limits, but not to an extreme degree. That said, I can't imagine ever going to 35s. At that point I feel like you're obligated to attempt those sorts of obstacles.

I'm confident that 33s would be the most I would ever really need and I could probably get by on 31s or 32s most of the time. What I've really learned driving my buddy's 4.88s, however, is that my stock 3.07s are really anemic. I honestly couldn't believe it was the same motor. Up until then I really didn't understand what a difference gears could make. So gears have become somewhat of a priority for me in this discussion. I'll also be paying a shop to install the more technically challenging mods. I could see myself doing some things, but I'd rather leave the technical adjustments to the professionals. I'll see what the local 4x4 shop proposes for a mod sequence and costs and go from there. Seems to me that it's either: 1) be happy with new 31s and new shocks for a good while, or 2) commit to 33s and the expense of doing everything right, i.e., gears, SYE, CV shaft, etc.

Thanks again for your input. If anyone knows how to stop obsessing over this stuff, please let me know . . .
 
#21 ·
You could go with a high clearance skid first, versus lifting. I'd probably also consider a lunchbox up front. And a maybe winch.
This is the most practical and best sounding advice I've seen in this thread here so far.

My current Jeep I bought bone stock, wheeled it for several years that way and just upgraded things and the broke or became limitations.

I literally can't object to anything EricD commented, that's almost exactly the way I built my current TJ.

Now with a few exceptions, I didn't do anything with any parts relating to the suspension or lifting.

I kept the factory shovel forever, having had several TJs and more than enough CJs I knew I didn't want to adjust everything twice.

If it was me, I would keep the jeep where it's at and find your jeep's personal limitations.

The things I broke in order:

Factory tie rod
Transfer case skid (bent not really broke)
Front Diff Cover
Oil Pan (Dented, still in use currently)
Smoke a few axle shafts and had to rebuild a driveshaft.
Bent some axle shafts (it could be argued this was abuse)
Bent/broke several factory control arms. (Literally like 6/8)
Smacked the crap out of the gas tank skid for several years.

Also should add that on the same trip the first 3 damages happened I was incredibly thankful I had a winch. Had to winch through about 50' of a 5' snow bank. The winch literally saved the bacon.

If I lost the jeep tomorrow and had to start over, first thing on the agenda would be a front bumper and winch. Followed by all the other cool stuff that isn't completely integrated to lifts or suspension.
 
#20 ·
You can have a lot of fun with an unlifted rig. Mine is a daily driver, 60 mi /day with moderate all terrains (BFG AT KO2). Took a cross country trip (with offroading in Colorado, Utah, Arizona and New Mexico), plus a bunch of other local events and Jamborees.

It was tricky at first, compared to the better set up rigs, but with experience there's a lot you can do.
 
#22 ·
Unless you have a dana 44 I wouldn't go over 31s and I wouldn't lock my rear end.


If you want larger you run the risk of breaking your Dana 35. If you want to chance it I would go a budget boost, a body lift and run 32s and be careful. Spend the extra money on a winch so if/when you get stuck you can use the winch and get out in stead of the using the skinny pedal and busting something. Even if MOAB is only a day a way that will be a long day if you bust your rear end.


Even if you have the dana 44 and you don't have money to burn I would go budget boost, body lift, 33s, winch re-gear, lockers.


Then if you still have money, belly up and the extras you will need to go with that. And at that point if you still want to spend ditch the BB for springs.


DON'T go cheap on your shocks no matter what you do and ditch the factory tie rod setup. Look into the ZJ conversion.
 
#23 ·
I'm wondering if I can run 32s on the stock 3.07 gears for phase one.

My buddy has a nice build. Drove like a tank compared to mine. High performance, but I was stunned at what a brute it was to drive. Fun for sure, but necessary? Mine drives really well, feels good. Needs tightening up for sure, no question. But it just drives so much nicer. It's really made me wonder if I want to go down that road right out of the gate . . .
A 1.25" body lift is sufficient to run skinny 32s. Quadratec has some nice-looking but cheap 16" wheels with approx 4.5" backspacing, which is just about right to maintain factory scrub radius with 32s.

One of the issues with stock springs is that you're always jouncing to full compression. However, it's possible to get extra support for offroading without lifting much, so you may want a spring upgrade even though you don't need suspension lift to run 32s. Up front, I have Moog ZJ springs, and out back, I have Moog 4Runner springs. This combo is balanced on the freeway, almost like it came that way from the factory. They only give you 1.25" of lift over factory ride height. They're dual-rate springs that give you phenomenal support for offroading.

As far as driving like a tank, MetalCloak control arms get great reviews for ride quality: http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f9/how-metalcloak-duroflex-bushing-stacks-up-1482467/
 
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#24 ·
Thanks Pine_Cat. Appreciate the continued discussion here. I'm still waiting to see the proposal from the well-respected local 4x4 shop. I think that will set the top of the bar so to speak. I will say he was/is not a fan of body lifts or TC drops viewing them as band-aids. Personal philosophy and fair enough. He's going to want to do the SYE/CV upgrade, and regear to 4.56 if I go 33s. All of which I understand. Just not sure I want to pay for all of that right away. Trying to stay patient, but admittedly I'm not good at that.

I've just sent the PO an email to confirm that I'm still running the stock 3.07 gears and that he never regeared. I'm curious because, now that my buddy with the nice 4.88s taught me how to drive the Jeep, i.e., run those rpms up a fair bit before shifting, I think my rig actually has some pop. At least more than most on these forums would lead you to believe in terms of running stock 3.07s and 31s. I think it runs 'em fine for the most part - hills notwithstanding, which there are plenty of around here. Anyway, we'll see. I'm open to staying with 31s if necessary for the first go-round. Wouldn't go beyond 33s anyway. But the expense of regearing coupled with the stock D35 vs. axle upgrade and lockers debate is a whole other can of worms and bucket of money at this point. Trying to think hard about how I'm really going to use this thing.

Where I find myself really leaning at the moment is towards the OME 2" HD lift at about $900. Without a BL/MML that probably doesn't get me much bigger than 32s (Cooper STT Pros) for Phase One (assuming my stock 3.07s(?) can turn them). I think I can live with that and really shore up the ride and suspension. Following that, as you suggest, I intend to replace the undercarriage with Metalcloak parts as I can. I've already scored a new-in-box MC rear track bar/bracket, discos and front brake lines from a poster on here. Made me a nice deal. I'd like to do the CAs, etc. too. I'm also particularly keen on tightening up the front end and steering. (I'm looking into the ZJ swap, Currie, etc.) It's all in good shape for the moment, except for a good shimmy from exactly 50-55 mph. I think it's tire balance. Nonetheless, bought my daughter an old XJ for her Sweet 16 a year ago and I learned about serious death wobble right out of the gate! Just glad I was driving and not her. She may not have been able to handle it as a rookie driver. Anyway, got all of that sorted out immediately with my regular shop so I feel like I understand that problem pretty well, but I'm definitely sensitive to it.

So that's my tentative plan as of today . . . even though it's contrary to my thread title and OP. :wink2:
 
#25 ·
I wheeled a 46 Willys CJ2A for years (still have it). Locked front and rear, lifted, and lots of extra stuff. So I felt like I knew Jeeps.

In 2008 I bought a 98 TJ four cylinder/5-speed totally stock. I knew what I wanted to do with it (and after a lot of researching options...), so I bit the bullet and did it all at once (Phase one and done). We're talking an RE 3.5" superflex suspension, RE Monotube shocks (that was my only mistake - later got Bilstein 5100 shocks), Currie antirock, Currie currectlyc steering, built Dana 44 with 33 spline alloy axles with Detroit softlocker, stock Dana 30 with front alloy axle shafts and Aussie locker (both geared with 4.88 gears), 285/75/16" Dick Cepek Fun Country II tires on 16x8" black spokes, AA SYE with Tom Wood's rear CV driveshaft, gas tank skid, steering box skid, Warn winch, body armor, bumpers, and lots more misc. stuff (I'm probably forgetting stuff). I wanted to get it done and over with so I could enjoy driving it. Roughly spent $5000 on the Jeep, and another $10,000 on parts and labor (and I did most of the labor short of building the rear axle and setting up the front axle). It only hurt once (my wife was NOT happy with me).

Other than replacing the bushings in the RE control arms a time or two, and getting rid of the RE shocks, I've been very happy with it. It wheels great, rides nice on the road, etc. In 2008 RE was the go-to suspension. Now-a-days there are more options. Someday if I'm bored I might research 4" spring options and swap out the RE springs just to see if it makes any difference.

If I hadn't planned on wheeling it, I probably would have got a 2" lift from BDS, 4.56 gears (true-tracs front and rear), still would have swapped out the rear Dana 35 for a Dana 44, and 31" tires on 15" rims. Still would have gone with Bilstein 5100 serious shocks.
 
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