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Unread 08-27-2011, 04:55 PM   #481
chris142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chmo View Post
chris142: you have a manual right?

hmmm ... just wondering if the additional thermal load through my built in tranny oil cooler is making the difference ...
and one more thing: the rads in the manuals do not have the auto tranny oil cooler in the lower part, right?! empty space? more water capacity? or unused tranny cooler?
Yes I have a stick shift. I refuse to own anything with an AT. I can't imagine the trans cooler adding that much heat to the coolant. It's a very small cooler and is fed by what, 5/16 or 3/8 lines?

The size of the line will restrict the flow of ATF. How much I don't know.

My Radiator is a cheap Chinese aftermarket with the unused cooler in the bottom. As far as the cooler effecting coolant capacity that would be

neglegable. I'd guess a cup or less difference in capacity.

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Unread 08-27-2011, 05:09 PM   #482
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chmo View Post
chris142: you have a manual right?

hmmm ... just wondering if the additional thermal load through my built in tranny oil cooler is making the difference ...
and one more thing: the rads in the manuals do not have the auto tranny oil cooler in the lower part, right?! empty space? more water capacity? or unused tranny cooler?
Unlimited04 has the 42RLE too ... what a coincidence
(EDIT: Best4x4 has an auto as well ... hmm ... bypassed rad? aux tranny cooler? where?)
i have an aux cooler mounted in front of the A/C condensor, and tranny temps are a good 40 less than the coolant temps...

therefore, i don't think tranny temps have anything to do with it....
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Unread 08-27-2011, 06:32 PM   #483
chmo
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ok ... the simple test would be :
start the Jeep at noon and let it idle for more than ten minutes with A/C on and tranny NOT up to temps ...
rising to 230 and above: this (MY) ford fan/clutch combo is not pulling enough air in idle
stable at around 210: hot tranny IS adding thermal load after it heats up ... enough to let the system accumulate heat, which does not get pulled away with a fan at idle rpms (after a drive)




any objection to the test case? (will do that tmrw... here it is 3:30am at the moment )
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Unread 08-27-2011, 06:43 PM   #484
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unlimited04 View Post
i have an aux cooler mounted in front of the A/C condensor, and tranny temps are a good 40 less than the coolant temps...

therefore, i don't think tranny temps have anything to do with it....
yeah ... I can see 160*F tranny temps in the hot line while on road as well ... they are fed to the supposedly much cooler lower part of the rad ...
The water temp gauge is where? I think in the nearly hottest possible spot, right?
(And ambient air is at around 118*F at noon here at the moment.)

So theoretically the hot tranny oil can add thermal load to a part in the rad which supposed to be even cooler without the tranny oil going through, right?
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Unread 08-27-2011, 08:13 PM   #485
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chmo View Post
yeah ... I can see 160*F tranny temps in the hot line while on road as well ... they are fed to the supposedly much cooler lower part of the rad ...
The water temp gauge is where? I think in the nearly hottest possible spot, right?
(And ambient air is at around 118*F at noon here at the moment.)

So theoretically the hot tranny oil can add thermal load to a part in the rad which supposed to be even cooler without the tranny oil going through, right?
You are exactly right! The tranny does add heat to the engine coolant. That's how it cools the tranny… by shedding heat into the engine coolant.

The whole existence of the 7-blade OEM fan and heavy-duty fan clutch is solely based on the fact that the 32RH tranny was dumping too much heat into the engine coolant, exceeding the engine's cooling capacity.

When your Automatic Jeep is stopped and idling in gear, the torque converter is generating a lot of unnecessary heat.

Following is the Chrysler TSB that pertains to the OEM 7-blade fan and heavy-duty clutch conditions and solutions.

Quote:
2001 Jeep Truck Wrangler L6-242 4.0L VIN S SFI

Temperature/Check Gauges Light ON

Engine - High Temperature/Check Gauges Light ON

NUMBER: 07-004-01 REV A

DATE: Dec. 14, 2001
THIS BULLETIN SUPERCEDES TECHNICAL SERVICE BULLETIN 07-004-01, DATED JULY 20, 2001.

SUBJECT:
High Engine Temperatures Due To Extended In-Gear Idling In Hot Ambient Temperatures

OVERVIEW:
This bulletin involves replacement of the cooling fan and fan drive. Certain 2000 M.Y. Wranglers will also require selectively erasing and reprogramming the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) with new software (2000 TJ - Calibration Level Cal15A).

MODELS:
2000 - 2001 (TJ) Wrangler
NOTE : THIS BULLETIN APPLIES TO WRANGLERS EQUIPPED WITH A 4.0L (ERH)
ENGINE AND A 32RH AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION (DGG).

SYMPTOM/CONDITION:
Engine coolant temperatures may rise high enough to cause the Check Gauges light to illuminate, indicating high engine coolant temperature. This condition is likely to happen after extended periods of idling, with the transmission in Drive, the air conditioning on, and with ambient temperatures greater than 35C. (95F.). If the transmission is placed in the Park or Neutral positions, or if the vehicle is driven, then the engine temperatures will decrease.

DIAGNOSIS PROCEDURES:

NOTE : REFER THE CUSTOMER TO THE RESPECTIVE 2000 OR 2001 JEEP
WRANGLER OWNER'S MANUAL AND TO THE SECTION TITLED: WHAT TO DO IN
EMERGENCIES - IF YOUR ENGINE OVERHEATS. IT IS IMPORTANT THAT THE
PROPER PROCEDURES ARE FOLLOWED TO PREVENT AN ENGINE OVERHEAT
CONDITION.

NOTE :INFORM THE CUSTOMER THAT THE REVISED FAN AND FAN DRIVE WILL
CREATE HIGHER SOUND LEVELS FOR A MINUTE OR SO AFTER A COLD ENGINE
START, AND DURING HIGH ENGINE TEMPERATURE CONDITIONS.
**THE FAN WILL RUN MORE OFTEN BECAUSE THE FAN CLUTCH WILL NOW ENGAGE AT LOWER TEMPERATURES.**

PARTS REQUIRED:
EQUIPMENT REQUIRED:
NOTE :THE MDS2 AND DRB III(R) ARE REQUIRED TO PERFORM PART OF THIS
REPAIR. WHEN USING THE MDS2 AND THE DRB III(R), THE SYSTEM MUST BE
OPERATING AT CIS CD 2064 OR HIGHER.
REPAIR PROCEDURE:
1. Verify that the cooling system is in good working condition.
2. Verify that the engine coolant mixture contains the proper amount of antifreeze.
3. If the customer complains of the above condition, and the vehicle is a 2000 Wrangler
with PCM software that is earlier (lower or less) than the calibration listed above, perform the complete Repair Procedure.
4. If the customer complains of the above condition, and the vehicle is either a 2001 Wrangler or it is a 2000 Wrangler with PCM software already at calibration level 15A or later, then perform only Step 1 of the Repair Procedure (replace only the fan and fan drive).

Verify the current PCM software calibration level (2000 Wrangler only). If the 2000 Wrangler PCM software calibration level is earlier (less or lower) than 2000 TJ - Calibration Level 15A, then proceed with steps 2 though 4.

NOTE :THE FOLLOWING STEPS ARE REQUIRED BY LAW.
1. Replace the cooling fan and viscous fan drive. Refer to the appropriate Wrangler Service Manual, Section 7 - Cooling Engine, for detailed fan and fan drive removal and installation instructions. The Service Manual procedures may be found on the MDS2.
2. Reprogram the PCM using the MDS2 (Mopar Diagnostic System) and DRBIII(R) (Scan Tool).
3. Type the necessary information on the "Authorized Software Update Label" p/n04669020 (Fig. 1). Attach the label to the PCM and cover the label with the clear plastic overlay.
4. Type the necessary information on the "Authorized Modification Label" p/n 04275086 and attach the label near the VECI label (Fig. 2).
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Unread 08-27-2011, 08:22 PM   #486
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chmo View Post
yeah ... I can see 160*F tranny temps in the hot line while on road as well
...
So theoretically the hot tranny oil can add thermal load to a part in the rad which supposed to be even cooler without the tranny oil going through, right?
i see 160 in the hot side line....so the radiator seems to add heat to the tranny oil. With the 9-blade Explorer fan, when I put the tranny in neutral or park and idle...the radiator starts heating up, and the tranny heats up more as the coolant temps rise....so the tranny temps actually get hotter while idling in park/neutral...

...yet with the stock fan & clutch I can idle all day in park/neutral and the engine doesn't overheat (as long as A/C isn't on)....seems like a fault in the Explorer fan on a 4.0L.
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Unread 08-28-2011, 02:20 AM   #487
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So...what is the verdict??
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Unread 08-28-2011, 07:18 AM   #488
chmo
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Update :

this is how my fan is positioned relative to the shroud and core, Hayden 2793, Dorman 9 blade, NO SPACER (closest position to the core) :

imga0331.jpg

imga0332.jpg

idling experiment:

1. I started the Jeep in P, A/C off at 3:03pm

2. At 03:17pm this is the situation
imga0317.jpg
fine ... without A/C the Hayden/Dorman combo is up to it ...
I switched the A/C on.

3. At 03:24pm :
imga0324.jpg
not fine ... the Hayden/Dorman combo is NOT up to it ... while idling more thermal load just through condenser heat ... the fan is not pulling enough air in idle if you want to run the A/C as well

4. At 03:26pm after some revving (between 1700 and 2000 rpms) in the parking lot :
imga0326.jpg

so ... no need to look further regarding tranny oil adding heat or not ... this combo needs to spin faster at idle speeds to be perfect.
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Unread 08-28-2011, 07:48 AM   #489
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unlimited04 View Post
i see 160 in the hot side line....so the radiator seems to add heat to the tranny oil. With the 9-blade Explorer fan, when I put the tranny in neutral or park and idle...the radiator starts heating up, and the tranny heats up more as the coolant temps rise....so the tranny temps actually get hotter while idling in park/neutral...
confirmed ... this is the warming up mode ... but if you push your TJ while towing or sand driving the tranny oil gets hotter than what the lower rad is seeing ... heat transfer the other way round

...yet with the stock fan & clutch I can idle all day in park/neutral and the engine doesn't overheat (as long as A/C isn't on)....seems like a fault in the Explorer fan on a 4.0L.
the hayden/dorman combo seems to be fine with idling without A/C as well! With the stock fan/clutch combo I can let the TJ sitting and idling for a very long time WITH A/C on ... its just the higher driving load situations which do not get handled well with the stock fan/clutch in super hot desert climate ... and here the hayden/dorman combo shines
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Unread 08-28-2011, 08:19 AM   #490
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Quote:
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not fine ... the Hayden/Dorman combo is NOT up to it ... while idling more thermal load just through condenser heat ... the fan is not pulling enough air in idle if you want to run the A/C as well
yup, thats what I see too....except mine isn't pulling enough air, even with the A/C off. It'll heat up with the a/c off and idling, after you've been on the road and IAT's are 140 and climbing. I'll bet you see the same thing if you heat soak the engine compartment a bit.

after seeing your pictures, I noticed my VDO fan fits better than your Dorman. your pictures look more like my 10-blade Ford fan. still shares the same issues tho.

VDO 9-blade:
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Unread 08-28-2011, 09:11 AM   #491
chmo
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Thanks, man!

I will pay closer attention towards long idling after heat soaked engine...

Interesting your VDO fan ... unfortunately I do not have much choice locally here. and keep paying shipping costs for the experiments

One more thing I might consider before going on a hunt for a slightly smaller water pump pulley:
My beloved and protecting billet aluminium grille inserts might go ... just to be sure. (you have some as well, right? )

one more thing : I rarely see IAT temps above 135 ... I have a heatshielded spectre cowl cai ... and hood louvers
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Unread 08-28-2011, 09:23 AM   #492
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chmo View Post
Thanks, man!

I will pay closer attention towards long idling after heat soaked engine...

Interesting your VDO fan ... unfortunately I do not have much choice locally here. and keep paying shipping costs for the experiments

One more thing I might consider before going on a hunt for a slightly smaller water pump pulley:
My beloved and protecting billet aluminium grille inserts might go ... just to be sure. (you have some as well, right? )

one more thing : I rarely see IAT temps above 135 ... I have a heatshielded spectre cowl cai ... and hood louvers
nice IAT's

yea, i couldn't find the Dorman locally...got the VDO because it would have taken Checker's 3 weeks to order the Dorman, but they had the VDO in the warehouse.

I do have the billet aluminum grille inserts, but I've also got a big arse Superwinch EPi9.0s on a warn mount blocking more than half the grill. I did remove the winch and saw slightly better temps, but not much difference worth noting. The grille inserts didn't seem to have much effect at all, but you can try it. To me they're worth it cause the keep the condensor & radiator clean and free of debris.
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Unread 08-28-2011, 12:38 PM   #493
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Originally Posted by Unlimited04 View Post
nice IAT's

yea, i couldn't find the Dorman locally...got the VDO because it would have taken Checker's 3 weeks to order the Dorman, but they had the VDO in the warehouse.

I do have the billet aluminum grille inserts, but I've also got a big arse Superwinch EPi9.0s on a warn mount blocking more than half the grill. I did remove the winch and saw slightly better temps, but not much difference worth noting. The grille inserts didn't seem to have much effect at all, but you can try it. To me they're worth it cause the keep the condensor & radiator clean and free of debris.
the grille inserts are a real protection against the little projectiles coming from the MT tires of my wheeling buddies driving in front of me on some rough trail to the final wheeling grounds ... I would really hate to have to get rid of them. So I am glad you already came to the conclusion they do not make much difference.
I am going to concentrate on sourcing a slightly smaller water pump pulley then ... will keep you updated
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Unread 08-28-2011, 12:47 PM   #494
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I am going to concentrate on sourcing a slightly smaller water pump pulley then ... will keep you updated
yank the pulley off a 1993/1994 Explorer and see if it would bolt up to the Jeep's water pump...I'm going to look, but not today...its gonna be too freakin' hot to crawl around the junkyard.
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Unread 08-28-2011, 01:02 PM   #495
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yank the pulley off a 1993/1994 Explorer and see if it would bolt up to the Jeep's water pump...I'm going to look, but not today...its gonna be too freakin' hot to crawl around the junkyard.

the only chance I have for the next week is tomorrow ... and regarding the heat, I can picture that! Thanks for the hint. I think I am going to pull a original pulley and use that as a "template" while asking the wise junkyard wizards for a smaller one.
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