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Unread 07-20-2011, 05:36 PM   #361
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Originally Posted by ftgiles View Post
Maybe, just maybe they fix the problems before they send more vehicles out
from the same company that used a breakage prone D35c in multiple models for 18+ years?

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Unread 07-20-2011, 05:45 PM   #362
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Can we all agree that most of the country is in a heat wave??? We've got a couple of possible solutions. We've also got more than a few possible causes for overheating. Has any one given thought about water pumps also? Impellers can completely rust through and the pump doesn't even leak. How many of us use distilled water when we flush our cooling systems/change out t'stat/waterpump? I don't. This is just a few possibilities. I'm looking at this as a parts professional and enthusiasts, not as someone trying to make a buck. There is nothing wrong with making money, but use another part of the forum to find out the feasibility for manufacture of a 7 blade fan. This is a tech forum here not a place for business feasibility studies, most people find out there is a market for something like this by making one, then another, not jumping into mass production immediately. Just ask some of the owners of small machine shops and/or machinist.
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Unread 07-20-2011, 05:49 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by Unlimited04 View Post
from the same company that used a breakage prone D35c in multiple models for 18+ years?
From the same company that used the same original terrible OPDA design for years as well as the prone to overflow with time gas tank (where you have to replace the whole tank to fix the problem)?
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Unread 07-20-2011, 05:59 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by GeepTJ View Post
Can we all agree that most of the country is in a heat wave??? We've got a couple of possible solutions. We've also got more than a few possible causes for overheating. Has any one given thought about water pumps also? Impellers can completely rust through and the pump doesn't even leak. How many of us use distilled water when we flush our cooling systems/change out t'stat/waterpump? I don't. This is just a few possibilities. I'm looking at this as a parts professional and enthusiasts, not as someone trying to make a buck. There is nothing wrong with making money, but use another part of the forum to find out the feasibility for manufacture of a 7 blade fan. This is a tech forum here not a place for business feasibility studies, most people find out there is a market for something like this by making one, then another, not jumping into mass production immediately. Just ask some of the owners of small machine shops and/or machinist.
Amen to the heatwave comment. Man, I gave a whole laundry list including water pumps as to what could possibly go wrong in terms of engine cooling apart from the fan or fan clutch in a previous post.

OEM TSB 7 blade + OEM TSB clutch is tech just like this plastic radiator fan replacement we are talking. My point was only: if you are going to replace something, why not truly upgrade or at least fully understand the whole story on what you are doing (risk vs reward)?

I'm not even talking mass production. You think 200 is mass production for an item like this? Think 10,000 or over ~600,000 (# of YJs sold for instance). There is no jumping into anything here. The OEM TSB solution is proven. It's quite simple.

I'll keep the *possible* commercial stuff out. Sorry if that offended you or anyone else. I am definitely NOT a parts professional (what does that even mean???) but I too am first and foremost an enthusiast.
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Unread 07-20-2011, 06:44 PM   #365
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Why do you think that is?

Maybe, just maybe they fix the problems before they send more vehicles out with the same problems making the TSB not apply and thereby reducing their warranty costs. Maybe?
Call DC and ask them?

All I know is that several TSB publications work on newer vehicles and the TSBs are not updated...
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Unread 07-20-2011, 07:01 PM   #366
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The failure I had on my 04 Grand Cherokee with a 4.7L V8 water pump would have sent a metal fan blade flying if it was equipped with one. Lucky for me I have the hydraulic cooling fan on my 04. The bearings totally failed and the only thing holding the shaft/pulley on the car was the tension of the drive belt. If the added stress of a fan blade being attached to it had been a factor I'm certain I'd have lost a hood, coolant hoses and only god knows what.

The funny part of that water pump failure was that I had dropped my Grand Cherokee off at Firestone for it's free front end alignment. When I went to pick it up the guys were like sir our tech noticed your power steering pump is leaking and squealing really bad so we've written you up with a quote. I laughed when it was close to $1200.00 for a power steering pump, and the installation.

I only take my Jeep to Firestone for the lifetime front end alignments! Anyways I said thanks and walked out with my keys. I popped the hood and saw nothing dripping from the power steering pump. I cranked it up and it was squealing really bad. When I stuck my head under the hood to inspect the noise I saw the pulley, and shaft just bouncing away all over the place (still connected to the impeller for the time being with a big chunk missing from the bearing area). I walked across the street to Oreilly's and bought a new pump, then I drove it home (20MPH neighborhood not to far from Firestone) and replaced the water pump. Never had a single issue with the power steering pump and I actually kept that old water pump for a while and posted pictures on a Grand Cherokee Forum. Just makes me laugh when they diagnosed that leak and noise lol.... IDIOTS...

My friend with a stock 06 Jeep Wrangler borrowed my 9 blade fan and Torque Flo clutch today to test it out before buying everything himself. I stuck my other friends OEM new fan clutch/5 blade fan on that I got for free and once again in traffic and sitting at idle my temps were warmer. I did notice a slight bit of more get up and go after a stop light vs the 9 blade and the torque flo clutch, but vs the cooling difference I can live with that.

My friend is probably going to buy the 9 blade fan and Imperial 215166 Regular Duty Fan Clutch vs the Imperial 215125 (or Hayden 2793). I told him to get the severe duty, but he thinks the standard is good enough....

P.S. On the Land Rover thing I had three Rovers at one time the 94 Range Rover Classic, 97 Range Rover HSE Vitesse, and the 03 Series II Discovery. I took the 94 off road a lot and I wasn't nice to it. I don't know how many rivers I plunged into, thick mud holes I dropped into, and the plastic fan held up fine. Maybe LR did use more $$$ materials on their fan blades, but construction wise it was made pretty much the same way as the Dorman fan blade.

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Unread 07-20-2011, 07:12 PM   #367
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As far as metal vs plastic fans go they both can fail at any time. Ask any smog tech what happens when a fan comes apart when smog testing a car.

I'm not going to argue which is better but 18 wheelers have been using huge plastic fans for many years now and millions of miles with a low failure rate.
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Unread 07-20-2011, 08:31 PM   #368
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As far as metal vs plastic fans go they both can fail at any time. Ask any smog tech what happens when a fan comes apart when smog testing a car.

I'm not going to argue which is better but 18 wheelers have been using huge plastic fans for many years now and millions of miles with a low failure rate.
18 wheelers are a whole different thing thought right? Just about every system on an 18 wheeler is designed from scratch to last an incredibly long time or put up with a lot of abuse right? I have not looked into the failure rate of 18 wheeler fan blades. Does the NHTSA (or some other agency) have such data available for public consumption?

If you tell me that Formula 1 cars use plastic fans I would think okay - they probably used some kind of aramid or carbon fiber reinforcement to handle the high heat et cetera; and most importantly they were designed from the beginning to use such a fan. Seeing as some Ford Mustangs seem to melt their plastic fans (previous links) it seems you would have to be very careful and match the fan to right application.

Slapping on a very different plastic fan where once there was a metal one still tied to same waterpump seems like you are changing a lot of unknown variables that could have unintended consequences (way beyond me, probably would need a materials engineer to know all those details). For example, I would think with plastic you have to worry about sheering forces much more carefully than with metal fan blades because the plastic is much softer. Perhaps you would even have to design in a slower or more smooth ramp up/down cycle when the fan starts are stops... I don't know.

E-Fans with associated electronics is a bit different though because you're disconnecting it from the water pump in this application.

Enough conjecture: have you seen a metal radiator fan come apart (or the aftermath) or signs it will come apart in a reasonably modern vehicle? Likewise for plastic fans?

The reason I ask is that your first hand experience might be more balanced than what I was able to find on the internet where I haven't been able to find a single metal radiator fan failure but was able to find an abundance of plastic radiator fan failures across market segments, models, and manufacturers (previous links in previous posts).

The only thing I can liken to this fan swap to is an aftermarket waterpump for TJs. I've seen on this board how the plastic impeller blades of aftermarket waterpumps sometimes fail spectacularly versus the tried and true metal impeller blades in the OEM waterpump (even though its not perfect either).
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Unread 07-20-2011, 08:52 PM   #369
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Originally Posted by Best4x4 View Post
The failure I had on my 04 Grand Cherokee with a 4.7L V8 water pump would have sent a metal fan blade flying if it was equipped with one. Lucky for me I have the hydraulic cooling fan on my 04. The bearings totally failed and the only thing holding the shaft/pulley on the car was the tension of the drive belt. If the added stress of a fan blade being attached to it had been a factor I'm certain I'd have lost a hood, coolant hoses and only god knows what.

The funny part of that water pump failure was that I had dropped my Grand Cherokee off at Firestone for it's free front end alignment. When I went to pick it up the guys were like sir our tech noticed your power steering pump is leaking and squealing really bad so we've written you up with a quote. I laughed when it was close to $1200.00 for a power steering pump, and the installation.

I only take my Jeep to Firestone for the lifetime front end alignments! Anyways I said thanks and walked out with my keys. I popped the hood and saw nothing dripping from the power steering pump. I cranked it up and it was squealing really bad. When I stuck my head under the hood to inspect the noise I saw the pulley, and shaft just bouncing away all over the place (still connected to the impeller for the time being with a big chunk missing from the bearing area). I walked across the street to Oreilly's and bought a new pump, then I drove it home (20MPH neighborhood not to far from Firestone) and replaced the water pump. Never had a single issue with the power steering pump and I actually kept that old water pump for a while and posted pictures on a Grand Cherokee Forum. Just makes me laugh when they diagnosed that leak and noise lol.... IDIOTS...

My friend with a stock 06 Jeep Wrangler borrowed my 9 blade fan and Torque Flo clutch today to test it out before buying everything himself. I stuck my other friends OEM new fan clutch/5 blade fan on that I got for free and once again in traffic and sitting at idle my temps were warmer. I did notice a slight bit of more get up and go after a stop light vs the 9 blade and the torque flo clutch, but vs the cooling difference I can live with that.

My friend is probably going to buy the 9 blade fan and Imperial 215166 Regular Duty Fan Clutch vs the Imperial 215125 (or Hayden 2793). I told him to get the severe duty, but he thinks the standard is good enough....

P.S. On the Land Rover thing I had three Rovers at one time the 94 Range Rover Classic, 97 Range Rover HSE Vitesse, and the 03 Series II Discovery. I took the 94 off road a lot and I wasn't nice to it. I don't know how many rivers I plunged into, thick mud holes I dropped into, and the plastic fan held up fine. Maybe LR did use more $$$ materials on their fan blades, but construction wise it was made pretty much the same way as the Dorman fan blade.
I would say you indeed were lucky. Land Rovers are supposed to be pretty rugged vehicles offroad (UN uses them a lot right?) so I wouldn't be surprised if they are different; being British on top of it, maybe they have different suppliers. Online I could only find complaints about broken switches not turning both fans on for Land Rovers when using A/C or something like that, nothing bad about the Land Rover fans themselves.

For your friend I would say the pitch angle is what's important for standard duty vs the heavy/severe duty bucket. There is a certain pitch once under or over that the respective fan clutch simply won't work or will work erratically. I guess the real proof is in: does it overheat Y/N, does the fan/fan clutch work the way it's expected to work Y/N. After that I don't think the other details matter anymore.
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Unread 07-20-2011, 08:57 PM   #370
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IMO the plastic Ford fan is better balanced and much lighter than the metal Jeep fan. If anything WP life should be improved with the Ford fan.

A fan clutch is designed to limit the fans speed. So WP pulley size won't effect the top speed of the fan. On a ford this may be 3000 engine rpm and with a smaller pulley it may reach maximum speed at a lower engine rpm but terminal fan speed will be the same...........With a properly working fan clutch.

I hope this makes sense.The fan will reach top speed sooner but won't be spinning any faster regardless of pully size because the fan clutch won't let it spin any faster.

As for the cracks in the Ford fan blades. I got mine just too see how it worked and it was only $8 @ PicAPart with cracks. But in all my years working in the automotive cooling industry I have never seen a Ford fan split where the plastic is molded onto the metal hub.

The plastic WP impeller is an entirely different kind of Plastic than what the fan blade is made from and the WP impeller is in extreemly hot coolant and under pressure. The Radiator fan just pulls air through the Radiator and Condenser.

It's life is easy vs an impellers life.

Don't take me wrong here I'm not trying to start a fight----> I think that your over thinking the plastic fan thing a little. If you want to build metal 7 blade fans for Jeeps that great! But untill you do were stuck with few options if somebody wants to upgrade their fan.

My Jeep has always ran hot. I've done lots of changes and each improves it a little. From hogging out the thermostat housing to bolting the stock fan clutch solid, different Radiators etc.

Even the bolted fan clutch allowed the engine to reach 235* on a 105 degree day with the 5 blade fan.

I saw 207* last week when it was 105*. I have not noticed any decrease in MPG. Infact I think it went up a little but thats a given when going from a bolted fan clutch to one that works.

Now that quite a few ppl are trying my fan idea time will tell but I think that Ford builds a more efficient fan blade than Jeep does.
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Unread 07-20-2011, 09:07 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by chris142 View Post
IMO the plastic Ford fan is better balanced and much lighter than the metal Jeep fan. If anything WP life should be improved with the Ford fan.

A fan clutch is designed to limit the fans speed. So WP pulley size won't effect the top speed of the fan. On a ford this may be 3000 engine rpm and with a smaller pulley it may reach maximum speed at a lower engine rpm but terminal fan speed will be the same...........With a properly working fan clutch.

I hope this makes sense.The fan will reach top speed sooner but won't be spinning any faster regardless of pully size because the fan clutch won't let it spin any faster.

As for the cracks in the Ford fan blades. I got mine just too see how it worked and it was only $8 @ PicAPart with cracks. But in all my years working in the automotive cooling industry I have never seen a Ford fan split where the plastic is molded onto the metal hub.

The plastic WP impeller is an entirely different kind of Plastic than what the fan blade is made from and the WP impeller is in extreemly hot coolant and under pressure. The Radiator fan just pulls air through the Radiator and Condenser.

It's life is easy vs an impellers life.

Don't take me wrong here I'm not trying to start a fight----> I think that your over thinking the plastic fan thing a little. If you want to build metal 7 blade fans for Jeeps that great! But untill you do were stuck with few options if somebody wants to upgrade their fan.

My Jeep has always ran hot. I've done lots of changes and each improves it a little. From hogging out the thermostat housing to bolting the stock fan clutch solid, different Radiators etc.

Even the bolted fan clutch allowed the engine to reach 235* on a 105 degree day with the 5 blade fan.

I saw 207* last week when it was 105*. I have not noticed any decrease in MPG. Infact I think it went up a little but thats a given when going from a bolted fan clutch to one that works.

Now that quite a few ppl are trying my fan idea time will tell but I think that Ford builds a more efficient fan blade than Jeep does.
I could very well be over thinking this. I am an analyst by profession so I admit I might take things very very far from time to time.

The only comment I must make is about the balance of the fan... I thought the same as you, until the mechanical engineers in my family slapped me down.

I don't fully understand the explanation (and will be looking into it further - I hate not understanding something). Terms thrown around were: "unequally placed angularly on the axis... same as the 5 blade fan will perform more efficient cooling than fan "X"... consider air discharge = mass of air flow per unit area... if the blades are unequally distributed we achieve a greater rate of discharge as the air absorption increases." and so on.
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Unread 07-20-2011, 09:07 PM   #372
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Yeah the older 87-94 Range Rovers used 2 electric fans for the A/C system that cycle on once the A/C is turned on. On my brothers 89 we modified it so whenever the engine was running the extra cooling fans were on. That seemed to make the fans actually last longer vs the people up north that rarely used their A/C. When they actually did get around to using it the fan's were either INOP from road salts or lack of use.

I miss my Land Rover's a lot, my dream Rover was a 94-97 (preferably a 97 with 4spd auto and a hard top) Defender 90 and all I can say is good luck trying to find one in original shape that isn't dogged out or less than 50,000.00. That's why I went with my 05 Wrangler! My 97 Range Rover was a special edition which only 150 were ever made. I kinda kick myself in the (_!_) whenever I think of that lol, but oh well at least I can say I owned one!

I guess my friend will find out if the 9 blade fan and standard fan clutch will cool good sometime this week. He's still driving around with my 9 blade fan and torque flo severe duty clutch lol. He should be dropping by anytime now so I'll be happy to have my setup back!
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Unread 07-20-2011, 09:15 PM   #373
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I could very well be over thinking this. I am an analyst by profession so I admit I might take things very very far from time to time.

The only comment I must make is about the balance of the fan... I thought the same as you, until the mechanical engineers in my family slapped me down.

I don't fully understand the explanation (and will be looking into it further - I hate not understanding something). Terms thrown around were: "unequally placed angularly on the axis... same as the 5 blade fan will perform more efficient cooling than fan "X"... consider air discharge = mass of air flow per unit area... if the blades are unequally distributed we achieve a greater rate of discharge as the air absorption increases." and so on.
I'm sure you know this but many parts are balanced by drilling holes in the heavy side, grinding material off etc. I'm sure that Ford knows how to balance a fan. I still see lots of Exploders running around town and none of the owners give a hoot about fan blades, pitch etc.

Let us assume that the 10 blade Ford fan with evenly spaced blades moves more air than a 5 blade fan with uevenly spaced blades does. The late model trucks that still use mechanical fans have gone to evenly spaced blades.

If say an Astro van can pull a boat across the desert with a 5/8 inch wide radiator core and an 11 blade plastic fan then our jeeps will be fine tooling around on trails with a 10 blade fan and a 1inch wide radiator core.

Yes you read that right! GM is cooling the 4.3L v6 with a 5/8 thick radiator!
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Unread 07-20-2011, 09:18 PM   #374
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Ck out this fan!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Dorma...Q5fAccessories
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Unread 07-20-2011, 09:43 PM   #375
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Sorry, not sure if anyone has asked if everyone has all the air seals in place around the a/c condenser/radiator? I noticed with a couple of condensers most did not come with the foam one that goes right on top to plug the long gap between the radiator and condenser. Just checking.
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