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Unread 03-02-2012, 12:45 PM   #16
biffgnar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rboggio1 View Post
Interesting you should point that out, This is one of those areas that is always a point of confusion. Remember a thermostat is a regulation device. In other words it is there to regulate the temperature within a certain specification. Thermostats provides several benefits especially on a computer controlled car. One of the goals of OBD and OBDII is to get the car up to operating temperature And into closed loop as soon as possible. The first benefit of the thermostat, it holds the water in the water jacket so it will heat more rapidly. The second function of the thermostat is to regulate the temperature of the water in the water jacket. That's why you always put the thermal end of the thermostat into water jacket.The goal is to maintain a operating temperature i.e. the temperature of the thermostat. With that in mind remember the engine is in part being controlled by a computer that expects certain variables to be within limits. Operating temperature is one of those limits. To be a little more specific the idea of open loop and closed loop comes to play. Open loop certain conditions exist to help the engine run cold. Once operating temperature is reached the system goes to close looped and different conditions exist to help maximize the efficiency of the engine. Exceeding the operating temperature will also cause a different set of conditions to exist as the computer tries to maintain or regulate efficiencies. Right now I'm talking about computer related events. There are also mechanical events the thermostat helps regulate. The ability to heat the inside of the vehicle is one of them. To allow the engine oil to get hot enough to evaporate condensation is another. The list is long and varied but the importance of the thermostat cannot be overstated.
Only confusion on my part is reading a lot of words that don't really say anything related to my initial comment. I'm familiar with our engine's desire to get up to temperature quickly. Where I still don't see an explanation from you though is once the thermostat opens (i.e. the engine has reached the minimum temperature the computer wants it at) what can the thermostat do to keep temperatures from going higher. Nothing as far as I can tell. That is the job of the rest of the cooling system. So the 195 is the minimum but how do we determine the intended maximum? I find it hard to believe that the minimum and maximum are the same which seems to be what you are suggesting. On the other hand, given that 99.99% of the TJs here on JF (and in the world I would suggest) run in the 205 to maybe a touch over 210 range sure seems to me that must be the maximum the cooling system is defined for. Your comment above that a TJ at 210 is overheating is not supported by real world evidence.

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Unread 03-02-2012, 12:46 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by rboggio1 View Post
To be a little more specific the idea of open loop and closed loop comes to play. Open loop certain conditions exist to help the engine run cold. Once operating temperature is reached the system goes to close looped and different conditions exist to help maximize the efficiency of the engine.
first off the thermostat can only go in one way on a 4.0L, you can't install it backwards...it don't fit. Second, the 4.0L is only in open loop on start up for 5-10 seconds or so, regardless of water temperature. Hook up an OBDII scanner and see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rboggio1 View Post
Exceeding the operating temperature will also cause a different set of conditions to exist as the computer tries to maintain or regulate efficiencies.
In the 4.0L, the engine will run until the CEL light is tripped at 260°, then the engine may get disabled by PCM.

Been there...no start, lots of buzzing.

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Originally Posted by rboggio1 View Post
To allow the engine oil to get hot enough to evaporate condensation is another.
There is no oil temperature sensor....if you're suggesting the engine somehow knows that the oil temp is...

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Originally Posted by biffgnar View Post
Only confusion on my part is reading a lot of words that don't really say anything related to my initial comment.
x2...I snipped all the other generic info out that is totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand, regarding Jeep 4.0L's.
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Unread 03-02-2012, 01:17 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Unlimited04 View Post
If you're refering to me, I made absolutely no comment about the fan clutch wearing out. I stated the HD clutches caused the belt to slip badly because they created too much resistance vs traction.


You have made grossly invalid assumptions about the driving conditions where this was tested. I thoroughly tested the setup, both off-road and on-road at speeds varying from 0 mph to 85mph, over several weeks, over varied temp conditions. With the engine at low loads, and the engine at high load. You can't get much more under load than trying to maintain speed in the rocky mountains at 60-65mph in 2nd gear, at 4500rpms, at WOT, in open loop, and losing speed. That was belt number one....


What about when that setup overheats on the street idling in traffic?


The fan types are different. The stock fan sucks air through the radiator. The explorer fan does not - the blades are supposedly moving air sideways. Less sucking, more blowing...so to speak.



Correct....
The fan types are "different"? I am not sure how you acquired that information. You are suggesting then the Dorman fan is not an Axial Fan? I have got to call you out on this one. Actually the Dorman fan with the curved blade tips will actual help to focus the air moment into a more stable discharge pattern vs the air sliding off the tips of the stock fan.

As far as your power scenario goes 60-65mph in 2nd gear, at 4500rpms, at WOT, in open loop, and losing speed. This scenario is outside the scope of this conversation.
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Unread 03-02-2012, 01:26 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rboggio1 View Post
The fan types are "different"? I am not sure how you acquired that information. You are suggesting then the Dorman fan is not an Axial Fan? I have got to call you out on this one. Actually the Dorman fan with the curved blade tips will actual help to focus the air moment into a more stable discharge pattern vs the air sliding off the tips of the stock fan.
I'll admit, I'm no fan blade pitch expert. Like I said, supposedly the fans are different types (in the way they move air)...and the amount of air they move is different just by feeling the difference in the engine compartment with your hand or face. The thread you referenced in the beginning, regarding the Explorer fan upgrade has a few good posts about it - thats where I got the info.

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Originally Posted by rboggio1 View Post
As far as your power scenario goes 60-65mph in 2nd gear, at 4500rpms, at WOT, in open loop, and losing speed. This scenario is outside the scope of this conversation.
How?

You said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by rboggio1
cooling was increased between 1500 and 3000 RPMs but the fan clutch was fully engaged. I can totally understand that the reciprocal being your engine was under a load at 3000 RPMs but wasn't moving fast enough to force air through radiator.
You are saying street driving 60mph isn't fast enough to force air through the radiator? The stock fan cooled just fine under those conditions, why won't the Explorer fan? The belt slips like a mofo, and burns the belt up...which the stock clutch did not do.

So, just to be clear, when compared to stock, inferior cooling and burning up a $50 belt because you converted to parts designed for a Ford Explorer isn't within the scope of this conversation?
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Unread 03-02-2012, 02:44 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by rboggio1 View Post
You all have helped remind me why forum writing is so fun.

After reading all the responses I am a little taken back.

First, let me say I am a fan of KISS (keep it stock stupid). I don't agree in the idea of “upgrading” for the sake of upgrading specifically when it comes to engine, transmission and driveline components. You can put all the bling you want on your ride, those are personal preferences. When it comes to modifying the reliability of your vehicle I always caution against. The majority of people don't understand the principles of how a vehicle works in the first place, let alone how that modification will “add” to its reliability.

Let me talk directly to a couple of the points brought out in the responses:

the conception my Jeep is supposed to heat up 210 and stay there.

I have to call you on that. Reality being I have a 195° thermostat. A thermostat is a regulation not a moderation device. In a properly operating cooling system the thermostat will open at 195° allowing the cooled water from the radiator to mix with the warm water in the water jacket of the block. If the system is working correctly the temperature of the water in the water jacket would not exceed 195°. If the water is consistently 210° the 195° thermostat has no effect. By practical definition the vehicle is overheating.

I have to call you on that. The conception is the stock cooling system is more than adequate:

the reality being Chrysler Corporation has acknowledged it has cooling system problems as outlined in their technical service bulletin:

Technical Service Bulletin, OEM 7 Blade Fan-HD Fan Clutch
2001 Jeep Truck Wrangler L6-242 4.0L VIN S SFI
Temperature/Check Gauges Light ON
Engine - High Temperature/Check Gauges Light ON
NUMBER: 07-004-01 REV A
DATE: Dec. 14, 2001
THIS BULLETIN SUPERCEDES TECHNICAL SERVICE BULLETIN 07-004-01, DATED JULY 20, 2001.
SUBJECT:
High Engine Temperatures Due To Extended In-Gear Idling In Hot Ambient Temperatures

So let’s go ahead and put that rabid dog down now. Making an absolute statement is absolutely foolish.

The generalized assumption made here is I'm looking for cooling while off-road in a rock crawling:

the reality being I do very little rock crawling or off-roading. My issue is sitting on the capital Beltway at 4:30 in the afternoon not moving. Assumption is the deadliest enemy of all. Never ever come to a conclusion without challenging all of your facts.

Let me quickly go over the operation of an internal combustion liquid cooled engine and how temperature is regulated. In a four stroke engine during one cycle of the piston there is a fuel vapor explosion. The average temperature of that explosion is 1700°F. That temperature quickly heats the cylinder wall. For the next three strokes you have exhaust intake and compression which helped to cool the cylinder somewhat. There is an immediate need to transfer that heat away from the cylinder. So engineers built what's referred to as the water jacket surrounding the cylinder. We fill that water jacket with a “heat transfer fluid” the most abundant and cheapest of which is water. Don't be confused water is not the coolant; water is the heat transfer agent. Air is the coolant. The water serves a secondary function of heat moderator. In other words it helps slow the rapid heating of the cylinder and conversely helps to slow the cooling of the cylinder when the internal combustion stops. This allows the metal to expand and contract at a more consistent rate reducing the chances of cracking.

Now we need to regulate how cool water is brought in and hot water is removed. We do that with the thermostat. As you know thermostats come in varying temperature ranges that control their opening and closing. We cycle the heat transfer fluid out of the water jacket in into the radiator. The radiator function is to be a heat sink as well as a storage tank to increase the capacity of the heat transfer fluid. The radiator was not designed to be a convection style heat dispensation unit. In other words it has not been designed as a passive heat sink. It is designed to have forced air moving through it. Contrary to what you might think the forced air is the vehicle moving in a forward direction at a sustained rate of speed. When the vehicle is sitting still, obviously there is no air movement.

Enter the need of the fan. Any fan on a vehicle regardless if it’s electrical or mechanical is a parasitic drain on the engine. The fan by design is not adequate enough to move the appropriate amount of air through the radiator with the engine under load. The fan is designed to move enough air through the radiator to dispensat heat while the engine is in a no-load condition. As most of us know there are fans the bolt directly to the water pump pulley turning one-for-one with water pump pulley speed. Of course this hampers engine performance. To overcome those issues introduce the hydraulic fan clutch.

The fan clutch is a hydraulically operated unit that consists of a bimetallic spring, a valve and some hydraulic fluid. The bimetallic spring sets on the front of the fan clutch and reacts to the temperature between the radiator and the spring. As the temperature between the radiator and the spring increases the spring deforms and opens a valve inside of the fan clutch allowing the hydraulic fluid to engage the fan clutch. As the temperature cools the valve closes and the fan clutch disengages. The bimetallic spring moderates the temperature between the radiator and a fan clutch. The standard Jeep Wrangler fan clutch starts to engage 165° ambient temperature between the radiator and the bimetallic spring. Typically it starts to disengage a 180° ambient temperature between the radiator and a bimetallic spring. That's cooling system 101. There's a lot more science that goes in to an automotive cooling system but what I just described is the operation of the cooling system.

Let's talk about the fan clutch for a minute. The standard fan clutch while we use the word disengaged is not completely disengaged. All fan clutches regardless of their designation typically turn 20 to 30% of the time while they are in the disengaged state. While that's nice to know what you need to know is engagement. The standard fan clutch when engaged only turns the fan 60 to 70% of the rotational speed of the pulley. In other words it's not a one-for-one rotation. When you move up to a heavy-duty fan clutch the rotational speed increases to 80 to 90% of the rotation of the pulley. How much do you need is really dependent upon your application. How much air do you need moving through the radiator at no or low vehicle speed? There is a secondary consideration for standard versus heavy-duty or severe duty fan clutch and that his blade pitch in other words how much the blade is angled. Standard fan clutches typically are for a 1 1/2 inch blade pitch. Heavy-duty and severe duties are typically for a 2 1/2 inch blade pitch.

Now let's talk about application. If you're a rock crawler or off roading and your speed is typically 0 to 15 miles an hour that would mean:
  • low forced air rates through the radiator
  • constant fan clutch lockup
  • accelerated fan clutch wear

if you are a road warrior and your speeds are typically in excess of 30 miles an hour what would that mean:
  • hi forced air rates to the radiator
  • consistent fan clutch disengagement
  • diminished fan clutch wear

That's not my opinion it's just the physics of the way the system works. From all the replies the one that spiked my interest was the one about the fan clutch wearing out. When I read that response the author states; cooling was increased between 1500 and 3000 RPMs but the fan clutch was fully engaged. I can totally understand that the reciprocal being your engine was under a load at 3000 RPMs but wasn't moving fast enough to force air through radiator. In other words rock crawling or four-wheel driving. Makes all the sense in the world.

But I am a curious type. One post stated initially there had been something wrong with my radiator suggesting it was plugged or crimped. Had to think about that one for a minute. I had to think about it so much I went out and put the old five blade fan back on. In the ambient air temperature of 60° I went back to idling at 210. Put the nine blade fan back on, idling at 195 Test proof conclusive not enough air moving through the radiator.
1st of all, welcome to Jeep Forum!

2nd. You mentioned the dangers of assuming things, and then you assumed that the folks replying to your thread didn't know how a cooling system worked, and wrote a wikapedia article about it...

There have been many others that have tried to come up with a "Better" cooling system for a TJ. Lot's of folks wanted to get away from the "Plastic" stock radiator, but after spending a whole bunch of money they ended up with another "Plastic" radiator... because it just plain works.

3rd. The gauge in the dash reading 210 is not calibrated, and it's very possible that your 195* thermostat is working correctly and the gauge is just reporting the wrong temperature.

I've owned 4 Jeep TJ's. 2 97's, an 03, and an 04... and every one of the stock gauges read 210* at normal opperating temperature. And that was reguardless of weather I was running the heater in the Winter, or the AC in the Summer.
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Unread 03-03-2012, 09:53 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by biffgnar View Post
Only confusion on my part is reading a lot of words that don't really say anything related to my initial comment. I'm familiar with our engine's desire to get up to temperature quickly. Where I still don't see an explanation from you though is once the thermostat opens (i.e. the engine has reached the minimum temperature the computer wants it at) what can the thermostat do to keep temperatures from going higher. Nothing as far as I can tell. That is the job of the rest of the cooling system. So the 195 is the minimum but how do we determine the intended maximum? I find it hard to believe that the minimum and maximum are the same which seems to be what you are suggesting. On the other hand, given that 99.99% of the TJs here on JF (and in the world I would suggest) run in the 205 to maybe a touch over 210 range sure seems to me that must be the maximum the cooling system is defined for. Your comment above that a TJ at 210 is overheating is not supported by real world evidence.
Let me begin with an apology. You asked a legitimate question, I did not answer your question forthright. I ask you to forgive me.

There are a couple of principles you need to take into consideration that support your answer. Humor me long enough to answer your question.

Whenever you are talking about cooling there is one specific principle you must always keep in mind, thermal transference. Thermal transference is achieved by contact time. Imagine if you will an electric stove. What would you do if you want to know if the heating element is hot? You touch it real quick. Without understanding the concept of heat transference you have experienced it. By touching the heating element real quick your senses will determine very very quickly if it feels hot. The reason it did not burn you is due to the fact you had very minimal contact time. The lack of contact time equals the lack of thermal transference. The actual energy of the heat was not transferred into your fingers.

The above principle is why a vehicle without a thermostat can overheat. Though every indicator in the vehicle may suggest the water is cold. The actual cylinder walls may be hotter than normal because the water is flowing so fast it cannot transfer the heat away from the cylinders. This is where we get the terminology "hot soak and cold soak".

Recall that I said the thermostat is a regulation device. The idea being the thermostat will regulate the temperature on the thermal side (thermal bulb) of the thermostat. Let's use the 195° thermostat as our example. At cold start obviously the water is below 195° this thermostat stays closed. The water stays against the cylinders and thermal transference takes place. The thermal bulb on the thermostat is filled with a mixture of wax and other compounds that melt at 195°. As they melt and the temperature increases they begin to expand. This expansion is what opens the orifice on the thermostat. So from cold start to 195° thermal transference has taken place to the water in the water jacket. The thermostat does not “snap” open or snap close it's a very dynamic aperture. As the thermostat begins to open the cooled water from the radiator is mixed with the warm water from the water jacket. As the temperature of the water decreases the thermostat closes. This evolution of the cooling process is referred to as a “change state”. In a correctly operating cooling system there has to be contact time for the change state to occur. At this point now we have cool water in the water jacket and warm water in the radiator. As the water in the water jacket heats up the thermal energy from the water in the radiator is being dissipated. The longer the hot water can stay in contact with the radiator the more thermal energy is dissipated. As the water reaches 195° in the water jacket the whole cycle starts again. So to answer your question does the thermostat open and close. The answer is yes. To your question, is the minimum the maximum again the answer is yes. Let me throw in one caveat. As the water reaches 195° the wax melts in the thermal bulb. As the temperature exceeds 195° the wax starts to expand. So there is a temperature variance with regards to the thermostat. In other words at 195° the thermostat starts to open. Let's say there is a 3° variance on the thermostat, at 198° the thermostat is wide open. When the thermostat is wide open the cooling system is at peak efficiency for the state it is currently in. Another way to say that, unless some external variable changes there is no more headroom for cooling. If the internal temperature continues to increase, the cooling system that was designed to maintain a 195° operating temperature has exceeded its threshold and is no longer efficient. In this example if the water exceeds 198° by definition the system is overheating. The thermal output has exceed the cooling capacity of the system.
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Unread 03-03-2012, 10:08 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by rboggio1 View Post
Let me begin with an apology. You asked a legitimate question, I did not answer your question forthright. I ask you to forgive me.

There are a couple of principles you need to take into consideration that support your answer. Humor me long enough to answer your question.

Whenever you are talking about cooling there is one specific principle you must always keep in mind, thermal transference. Thermal transference is achieved by contact time. Imagine if you will an electric stove. What would you do if you want to know if the heating element is hot? You touch it real quick. Without understanding the concept of heat transference you have experienced it. By touching the heating element real quick your senses will determine very very quickly if it feels hot. The reason it did not burn you is due to the fact you had very minimal contact time. The lack of contact time equals the lack of thermal transference. The actual energy of the heat was not transferred into your fingers.

The above principle is why a vehicle without a thermostat can overheat. Though every indicator in the vehicle may suggest the water is cold. The actual cylinder walls may be hotter than normal because the water is flowing so fast it cannot transfer the heat away from the cylinders. This is where we get the terminology "hot soak and cold soak".

Recall that I said the thermostat is a regulation device. The idea being the thermostat will regulate the temperature on the thermal side (thermal bulb) of the thermostat. Let's use the 195° thermostat as our example. At cold start obviously the water is below 195° this thermostat stays closed. The water stays against the cylinders and thermal transference takes place. The thermal bulb on the thermostat is filled with a mixture of wax and other compounds that melt at 195°. As they melt and the temperature increases they begin to expand. This expansion is what opens the orifice on the thermostat. So from cold start to 195° thermal transference has taken place to the water in the water jacket. The thermostat does not “snap” open or snap close it's a very dynamic aperture. As the thermostat begins to open the cooled water from the radiator is mixed with the warm water from the water jacket. As the temperature of the water decreases the thermostat closes. This evolution of the cooling process is referred to as a “change state”. In a correctly operating cooling system there has to be contact time for the change state to occur. At this point now we have cool water in the water jacket and warm water in the radiator. As the water in the water jacket heats up the thermal energy from the water in the radiator is being dissipated. The longer the hot water can stay in contact with the radiator the more thermal energy is dissipated. As the water reaches 195° in the water jacket the whole cycle starts again. So to answer your question does the thermostat open and close. The answer is yes. To your question, is the minimum the maximum again the answer is yes. Let me throw in one caveat. As the water reaches 195° the wax melts in the thermal bulb. As the temperature exceeds 195° the wax starts to expand. So there is a temperature variance with regards to the thermostat. In other words at 195° the thermostat starts to open. Let's say there is a 3° variance on the thermostat, at 198° the thermostat is wide open. When the thermostat is wide open the cooling system is at peak efficiency for the state it is currently in. Another way to say that, unless some external variable changes there is no more headroom for cooling. If the internal temperature continues to increase, the cooling system that was designed to maintain a 195° operating temperature has exceeded its threshold and is no longer efficient. In this example if the water exceeds 198° by definition the system is overheating. The thermal output has exceed the cooling capacity of the system.
Dude, your Wikipedia skills are awesome! Thanks for saving me the searches.

I'm done with this thread, but will repeat my belief based my experience and almost every other TJ owner out there that a TJ operating in the 205 to 210 plus a bit area is right were DC intended us to be. If you believe otherwise we will just have to disagree.
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Unread 03-03-2012, 11:30 AM   #23
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Dude, your Wikipedia skills are awesome! Thanks for saving me the searches.

I'm done with this thread, but will repeat my belief based my experience and almost every other TJ owner out there that a TJ operating in the 205 to 210 plus a bit area is right were DC intended us to be. If you believe otherwise we will just have to disagree.
This is the one thread where I agree with Biffgnar today...
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Unread 03-03-2012, 11:39 AM   #24
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my guess is the OE temp gauge is pretty close . If the thermostat starts to open at 195 the temp in the engine block & head where the sensor is is most likely above 195 by the time it heats up the thermostat enough to open and start to transfer the hot water into the radiator to be coole thus forcing the cooled water into the engine ..................
this is refering to my 99 , I hear some of the newer TJ temp gauges don't work the same as the older ones.
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Unread 03-21-2012, 01:51 AM   #25
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So, after literally spending what seemed like an eternity reading this overly imformative and somewhat intriging thread. Are we in agreement that changing the amount of blades and adding a heavy duty clutch and also installing a pusher type electric fan are not going to do as good of a job as "stock". Because with this being the case I have a 06' tj that from time to time and not necessarilly in the dead of heat summer will in fact throw both "cel" and "mil" lights and have the temp. guage peg all the way to the right, thus causing the jeep to idle rough and loose hp. Forcing you to pull over and shut it off thinking "holy hell i just blowed a kanuter valve". Just to find out you can still lay your hand on the hoses and radiater, so apparently i'm not overheating. And when I hook it up to pull codes there are none recorded. I actually have an 14"elec. fan with therm. laying around I was going to install to see if it would help, by flipping the blade over it can be changed from a puller to a pusher. My concern after reading this thread is this. If I leave the stock fan/clutch on my water pump, and install the elec. fan in front of my condenser(and yes it will fit). What is going to be the outcome? Am I going to run cooler or at least cause the temp. guage to think I'm running cooler which in return would allow the PCM to not go into what seems to be "limpmode". Sorry to hi-jack the thread but I am just curious.
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Unread 03-21-2012, 02:22 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by bhawghead View Post
So, after literally spending what seemed like an eternity reading this overly imformative and somewhat intriging thread. Are we in agreement that changing the amount of blades and adding a heavy duty clutch and also installing a pusher type electric fan are not going to do as good of a job as "stock". Because with this being the case I have a 06' tj that from time to time and not necessarilly in the dead of heat summer will in fact throw both "cel" and "mil" lights and have the temp. guage peg all the way to the right, thus causing the jeep to idle rough and loose hp. Forcing you to pull over and shut it off thinking "holy hell i just blowed a kanuter valve". Just to find out you can still lay your hand on the hoses and radiater, so apparently i'm not overheating. And when I hook it up to pull codes there are none recorded. I actually have an 14"elec. fan with therm. laying around I was going to install to see if it would help, by flipping the blade over it can be changed from a puller to a pusher. My concern after reading this thread is this. If I leave the stock fan/clutch on my water pump, and install the elec. fan in front of my condenser(and yes it will fit). What is going to be the outcome? Am I going to run cooler or at least cause the temp. guage to think I'm running cooler which in return would allow the PCM to not go into what seems to be "limpmode". Sorry to hi-jack the thread but I am just curious.
It sounds to me like you have a sticking thermostat.
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Unread 03-21-2012, 03:37 AM   #27
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If my Jeep stays at it's "210", I know nothing is wrong with it. When it shows anything other than that, I'll know it needs some attention. I had a Z24 like that. It was so modified, that the CEL was always on... one day, it went off right about 90ft into a pass at NTR. After checking all the little easy things, I noticed some serious glazing on my #3 cylinder plug. I did a complete tear down that night and found my #3 was completely wasted... the injector was failing, causing a lean mix in that cylinder. It just so happened that the O2 sensor was reading a normal amount of fuel instead of the excessive amount I was putting through it, and killed the CEL. If I'd finished the pass, I probably would have lost the motor competely.
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Unread 03-21-2012, 03:42 PM   #28
bhawghead
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2007 JK Wrangler 
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: ky
Posts: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClimbStuff View Post
If my Jeep stays at it's "210", I know nothing is wrong with it. When it shows anything other than that, I'll know it needs some attention. I had a Z24 like that. It was so modified, that the CEL was always on... one day, it went off right about 90ft into a pass at NTR. After checking all the little easy things, I noticed some serious glazing on my #3 cylinder plug. I did a complete tear down that night and found my #3 was completely wasted... the injector was failing, causing a lean mix in that cylinder. It just so happened that the O2 sensor was reading a normal amount of fuel instead of the excessive amount I was putting through it, and killed the CEL. If I'd finished the pass, I probably would have lost the motor competely.
I think this is sort of my entire problem! I believe the #3 injector is getting heat soaked, causing that cyl. to vapor lock, which in turn is causing most of the problems because I'm not overheating. The pcm just thinks it is due to the inj/cyl. trouble. That inj. is turned 1/4 turn to the right as opposed to the other 5 that are straight up (throttle bracket is over the top of it). I've wrapped it in heat sheild several times it gets to hot in that area for a zip tie to survive. so the heat shield falls down into the exhaust manifold.
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