tj front adjustable track bars for 0-3.5", does yours hit or fit? - Page 91 - JeepForum.com
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Unread 10-30-2012, 11:16 AM   #1351
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Originally Posted by Unlimited04 View Post
once again, the axle needs to be positioned at full bump. at that point, the axle doesn't care what length the arms are. there is no UP, it's all DOWN.
Your stating you set the wheelbase of the vehicle when at full bump with adjustable arms? Thats not right..........I think there is some miscommunication going on here

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Unread 10-30-2012, 11:22 AM   #1352
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Originally Posted by GMBNT42 View Post
Your stating you set the wheelbase of the vehicle when at full bump with adjustable arms? Thats not right..........I think there is some miscommunication going on here
wheelbase is irrelevant in this discussion. the wheelbase is whatever it ends up being, after you position the axle where it needs to be to clear the suspension and tire interferences present.
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Unread 10-30-2012, 11:33 AM   #1353
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Your stating you set the wheelbase of the vehicle when at full bump with adjustable arms? Thats not right..........I think there is some miscommunication going on here
Yes it is. When dealing with interference areas (which is always) you want to set the control arms when the axle is at its furthest up and out, ie at full bump. I built my entire suspension at full bump after determining where full bump had to be. That's what matters, not ride height. The only thing ride height is good for is proper track bar length.
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Unread 10-30-2012, 03:53 PM   #1354
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Yes it is. When dealing with interference areas (which is always) you want to set the control arms when the axle is at its furthest up and out, ie at full bump. I built my entire suspension at full bump after determining where full bump had to be. That's what matters, not ride height. The only thing ride height is good for is proper track bar length.
Yeah......not going to agree there.........if your shortening the wheelbase of the vehicle so the axle clears components, then IMO thats kind of backwards in a sense. That means that at ride height your potentially shortening the wheelbase and pulling the F/R wheels together offsetting them at ride height in the wheel wells. Stock short arms sit parallel to the ground at stock height. So if you lift the vehicle 3-4" you need to lengthen the aftermarket short arms to keep the wheelbase stock and the wheels centered in the wheel wells. So when you stuff the front axle up on both sides......its going to move the front axle slightly forward at full stuff and the rear axle will move slightly back at full up stuff.
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Unread 10-30-2012, 04:03 PM   #1355
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Yeah......not going to agree there.........if your shortening the wheelbase of the vehicle so the axle clears components, then IMO thats kind of backwards in a sense. That means that at ride height your potentially shortening the wheelbase and pulling the F/R wheels together offsetting them at ride height in the wheel wells. Stock short arms sit parallel to the ground at stock height. So if you lift the vehicle 3-4" you need to lengthen the aftermarket short arms to keep the wheelbase stock and the wheels centered in the wheel wells.
you're completely and absolutely wrong in the way you're thinking about this. forget about ride height.

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So when you stuff the front axle up on both sides......its going to move the front axle slightly forward at full stuff and the rear axle will move slightly back at full up stuff.
and that creates problems. your bumpstops won't line up at full bump, and in front you're smashing the axle into steering & track bar and in the rear, pushing your tires into your fenders and the diff into gas tank.

My rear lower control arms are stock length. and you want me to move them back to "gain" wheelbase?



what am I going to do about this gas tank:


or these not lining up?


or the tires hitting the fenders?

from: http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f9/05...71/index3.html

and you want me to move the front forward more?



once again - all that matters is what happens at full bump and full flex. whatever wheelbase you end up with after that, is what it is.
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Unread 10-30-2012, 05:05 PM   #1356
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See.......there in lies the problem with short radius arms............so if you adjust the control arms to be short and centered in the wheel well when fully stuffed you lose your stock wheelbase at regular ride height when lifted(the front and rear wheels will be pulled in towards each other). But if you adjust the arms so that you retain your factory wheelbase at your new lifted height then at full stuff the front and rear axles will move forward and back away from each other. Correct?

If this is the case, I now see why the gentleman who got me into the Jeeps thinks that short arms on factory mounts should be limited to 2".....3" absolute tops(with the assumption they will settle down closer to 2") of lift with 10" shocks.......beyond that he feels that custom(mid arms)or long arms are superior due to the larger travel radius where the axles won't push or pull off the vertical plane like short arms do.
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Unread 10-30-2012, 05:38 PM   #1357
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Originally Posted by GMBNT42 View Post
Yeah......not going to agree there.........if your shortening the wheelbase of the vehicle so the axle clears components, then IMO thats kind of backwards in a sense. That means that at ride height your potentially shortening the wheelbase and pulling the F/R wheels together offsetting them at ride height in the wheel wells. Stock short arms sit parallel to the ground at stock height. So if you lift the vehicle 3-4" you need to lengthen the aftermarket short arms to keep the wheelbase stock and the wheels centered in the wheel wells. So when you stuff the front axle up on both sides......its going to move the front axle slightly forward at full stuff and the rear axle will move slightly back at full up stuff.
Disagree all you want. Once you start getting involved with suspension a bit more you'll agree with me. If there's one thing I'm really good at, it's dialing in suspension. So why in the world would I be giving you wrong information?

As for your later analysis of the reasoning, you're absolutely correct. Stock mounts, more so than the short-length arms, leave much to be desired when it comes to the arcs they scribe. I love these types of discussions so be my guest to disagree with me. I've got plenty of pictures and sound reasoning to back up my case.
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Unread 10-30-2012, 05:39 PM   #1358
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Originally Posted by GMBNT42 View Post
See.......there in lies the problem with short radius arms............so if you adjust the control arms to be short and centered in the wheel well when fully stuffed you lose your stock wheelbase at regular ride height when lifted(the front and rear wheels will be pulled in towards each other).
any difference is completely negligible, and considering most of the time you extend the front lowers a little to gain caster, you often end up really close to stock wheelbase.

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But if you adjust the arms so that you retain your factory wheelbase at your new lifted height then at full stuff the front and rear axles will move forward and back away from each other. Correct?
if you make your tires look pretty like you want, and center them perfectly in the wheelwells, you push the axle into stuff...because nothing lines up at full bump.

the stock vehicle is DESIGNED around the tires fitting and having everything clear & line up at full bump. as soon as you deviate from that stock height, all that goes out the window.

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Originally Posted by GMBNT42 View Post
If this is the case, I now see why the gentleman who got me into the Jeeps thinks that short arms on factory mounts should be limited to 2".....3" absolute tops(with the assumption they will settle down closer to 2") of lift with 10" shocks.......
bull crap. 4" of lift works just fine with short arms, if it's setup right.

the major benefit of longer arms is at greater travel ratios, because the axles don't "steer" as much and the spring/shock/bumpstop alignment stays better for longer throughout the cycle. and then at some point, the spring unseats and even falls out. and then what good is it?

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beyond that he feels that custom(mid arms)or long arms are superior due to the larger travel radius where the axles won't push or pull off the vertical plane like short arms do.
mid arms are better if they're setup right and you intend to use the benefits. but that said, short arms can work great too - plenty of folks smarter than you or me have been doing it well for years in all sorts of nasty terrain, with 12"+ travel shocks.

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Stock mounts, more so than the short-length arms, leave much to be desired when it comes to the arcs they scribe.
x2 on this.

to elaborate - it depends how detailed you want to get. You can get a pretty damn good suspension while still using short arms and the stock mounts. To get that extra little bit requires a ***** load of fabrication, and sadly many people won't even notice the difference....whether that be because they aren't astute enough to notice or they don't wheel where it really matters.
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Unread 10-30-2012, 05:49 PM   #1359
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Even if the trackbar frame bracket is only moved up and towards the spring perch just a fraction of an inch or so? Or basically enough to give better clearance to the diff cover?
as long as you don't go to far you may be alright
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Unread 10-31-2012, 07:12 AM   #1360
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Originally Posted by Imped View Post
..... When dealing with interference areas (which is always) you want to set the control arms when the axle is at its furthest up and out, ie at full bump.
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Originally Posted by Unlimited04 View Post
...... the axle needs to be positioned at full bump. At that point, the axle doesn't care what length the arms are.....
Best and simplest explanations yet heard! Well said!
As one who first tried centering axle in wheel wells I can confirm.... slightly shrunk wheel base makes no different in the greater scheme. It is what ever it ends up being.

Question: In pics above, is the bump stop shown without the jounce pad really that bad?
With my JKS bump stops I'm on the outer half, just slightly off the edge, on all four. Had to do this to get decent pinion angle!
I had posted pics once and someone said looked ok?
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Unread 10-31-2012, 08:04 AM   #1361
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Question: In pics above, is the bump stop shown without the jounce pad really that bad?
With my JKS bump stops I'm on the outer half, just slightly off the edge, on all four. Had to do this to get decent pinion angle!
I had posted pics once and someone said looked ok?
when you're checking full bump, you need to remove the jounce bumper...since it will, and is designed to, fully compress into the cup.
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Unread 10-31-2012, 08:29 AM   #1362
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Disagree all you want. Once you start getting involved with suspension a bit more you'll agree with me. If there's one thing I'm really good at, it's dialing in suspension. So why in the world would I be giving you wrong information?

As for your later analysis of the reasoning, you're absolutely correct. Stock mounts, more so than the short-length arms, leave much to be desired when it comes to the arcs they scribe. I love these types of discussions so be my guest to disagree with me. I've got plenty of pictures and sound reasoning to back up my case.
I think the part I agree with fully is that alot of the welded on component mounts need to be moved or altered in reality if things are to line up right.
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Unread 10-31-2012, 08:49 AM   #1363
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any difference is completely negligible, and considering most of the time you extend the front lowers a little to gain caster, you often end up really close to stock wheelbase.


if you make your tires look pretty like you want, and center them perfectly in the wheelwells, you push the axle into stuff...because nothing lines up at full bump.

the stock vehicle is DESIGNED around the tires fitting and having everything clear & line up at full bump. as soon as you deviate from that stock height, all that goes out the window.


bull crap. 4" of lift works just fine with short arms, if it's setup right.

the major benefit of longer arms is at greater travel ratios, because the axles don't "steer" as much and the spring/shock/bumpstop alignment stays better for longer throughout the cycle. and then at some point, the spring unseats and even falls out. and then what good is it?


mid arms are better if they're setup right and you intend to use the benefits. but that said, short arms can work great too - plenty of folks smarter than you or me have been doing it well for years in all sorts of nasty terrain, with 12"+ travel shocks.


x2 on this.

to elaborate - it depends how detailed you want to get. You can get a pretty damn good suspension while still using short arms and the stock mounts. To get that extra little bit requires a ***** load of fabrication, and sadly many people won't even notice the difference....whether that be because they aren't astute enough to notice or they don't wheel where it really matters.
A. If your lifting a few inches, you adjust the lower out not just to retain caster, but to retain wheelbase in the process as well. Its 2 fold isn't it?

B. As for full stuff things not lining up correctly, I get that, but then maybe the best solution(not always the easiest mind you)is to move some of the component mounts. Bumpstops don't line up? Remount the trackbar and frame spring/shock perches....move em forward a fraction of an inch. Not too hard to do with grinder and MIG. Or maybe go the opposite direction by moving the lower frame control arm mount back a bit since the lower arms a getting lengthened a bit. Maybe make it a bit more "low profile" in the process. Im actually suprised no one has mentioned doing that....probably the easiest thing to do to keep the axle lined up at full stuff. Cut off, modify or replace and remount the LCA frame mount back just a bit further.

C. Maybe so stock, but that is because at stock the arms ride parallel to begin with(so they extend at the farthest point forward already.....when you lift the arms pull the axle down and back a bit). I get this. Which is why SA's probably only make sense up to a certain lift height. A few people here locally think that theyt only make sense for a few inches for all things to work correctly and line up still as stated above.......trust me other people see the same big picture your trying to present towards me........which I get......just that some people who also have the same views thinks that SA's have quicker limitations in terms of ride height than maybe you or others feel before seriously thinking about custom or long arm setups, thats all.

D. 4" may work just fine, but some people locally feel that at that lift height and higher, there are better solutions than stock SA's using stock mounting points. Getting a bigger picture from this thread I'm starting to agree as well. Not that bolt on 4" SA setups cant be done, or done well, but that there are better alternatives if doing it "right" is the main goal......of course that means lots of cutting and welding.........but thats the tradeoff for those who want to go the full 9 yards.

E. And your last "axle steer"/bumpstop alignment comment concerning custom or longer arms pretty much enforces that fact above. When you start getting into long travel suspension......for things to line up better, get less negative effects of jacking/steer of the axles.......SA's only go so far........custom or LA's have significant advantages.......
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Unread 10-31-2012, 09:31 AM   #1364
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A. If your lifting a few inches, you adjust the lower out not just to retain caster, but to retain wheelbase in the process as well. Its 2 fold isn't it?
You're almost there but you're still not thinking about this right. If you lengthen the lowers only, you're rotating the housing around the upper control arm bolts. The whole axle isn't moving forward, it's just being rotated. Your'e not gaining squat in terms of wheelbase, only caster.
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B. As for full stuff things not lining up correctly, I get that, but then maybe the best solution(not always the easiest mind you)is to move some of the component mounts. Bumpstops don't line up? Remount the trackbar and frame spring/shock perches....move em forward a fraction of an inch. Not too hard to do with grinder and MIG. Or maybe go the opposite direction by moving the lower frame control arm mount back a bit since the lower arms a getting lengthened a bit. Maybe make it a bit more "low profile" in the process. Im actually suprised no one has mentioned doing that....probably the easiest thing to do to keep the axle lined up at full stuff. Cut off, modify or replace and remount the LCA frame mount back just a bit further.
You make it sound so piddly and that really shows your inexperience with this stuff. Nice ideas but they don't transpire in reality. First off, I'd like to see you cut off every single control arm (upper and lower) and track bar mount in such a way that they're perfectly able to be re-used. The same goes for the rear coil buckets and rear shock mounts (how are you going to address those?). That takes a lot of time. And in the end, you did it so that your final wheelbase is at 94.5" instead of 93.8". Either way, that's short-*** wheelbase and it won't make one little bit of difference when you're trying to climb up that wall. And you're still left with the stupidly low-hanging axle brackets (the biggest problem). But you can't move those up far enough to matter because you're not moving the upper mounts up. Remember when I say "either stick with the stock mounts or go all custom"? Every one of your ideas has gone through my head at one point or another over the years of getting better at the suspension game and that's where I ended up.

And that still doesn't address the gas tank or steering box location. Assuming one has the highest-clearance gas tank skid around (Savvy), the gas tank can't move back any further and you can't gain anymore clearance in front of it. Set the axle at full bump, move it back as far as you're able to, and it'll end up where it ends up at ride height. As for the steering, go try to move the front axle more forward, even if you move the track bar mount for some dumb reason. You're practically locked in unless you want to do a **** ton of work that hardly anyone wants to do for 1". Again, your ideas work out fine in your head but you're not realizing the scope of constraints at work here. Once you get under your Jeep and actually try to fulfill these ideas, you'll agree with us.
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C. Maybe so stock, but that is because at stock the arms ride parallel to begin with(so they extend at the farthest point forward already.....when you lift the arms pull the axle down and back a bit). I get this. Which is why SA's probably only make sense up to a certain lift height. A few people here locally think that theyt only make sense for a few inches for all things to work correctly and line up still as stated above.......trust me other people see the same big picture your trying to present towards me........which I get......just that some people who also have the same views thinks that SA's have quicker limitations in terms of ride height than maybe you or others feel before seriously thinking about custom or long arm setups, thats all.
I agree with the "few people here locally", but my opinion steers more towards the mounts. Again, the arm length is less of a factor than the mounts. I've proven that with my previous setup. Stock mounts = elastic horizontal:vertical movement. Proper mounts = inelastic horizontal:vertical movement. If you'd like, I've got pictures showing the difference with no difference in arm length. Mounts aside, obviously the shorter the arm, the smaller the travel radius will be. But then you have to ask yourself if it matters. Set up the mounts right and it really doesn't.
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D. 4" may work just fine, but some people locally feel that at that lift height and higher, there are better solutions than stock SA's using stock mounting points. Getting a bigger picture from this thread I'm starting to agree as well. Not that bolt on 4" SA setups cant be done, or done well, but that there are better alternatives if doing it "right" is the main goal......of course that means lots of cutting and welding.........but thats the tradeoff for those who want to go the full 9 yards.
This I basically agree with.
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E. And your last "axle steer"/bumpstop alignment comment concerning custom or longer arms pretty much enforces that fact above. When you start getting into long travel suspension......for things to line up better, get less negative effects of jacking/steer of the axles.......SA's only go so far........custom or LA's have significant advantages.......
Significant? Not really. Advantages? Yes.
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Unread 10-31-2012, 10:28 AM   #1365
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You're almost there but you're still not thinking about this right. If you lengthen the lowers only, you're rotating the housing around the upper control arm bolts. The whole axle isn't moving forward, it's just being rotated. Your'e not gaining squat in terms of wheelbase, only caster.

You make it sound so piddly and that really shows your inexperience with this stuff. Nice ideas but they don't transpire in reality. First off, I'd like to see you cut off every single control arm (upper and lower) and track bar mount in such a way that they're perfectly able to be re-used. The same goes for the rear coil buckets and rear shock mounts (how are you going to address those?). That takes a lot of time. And in the end, you did it so that your final wheelbase is at 94.5" instead of 93.8". Either way, that's short-*** wheelbase and it won't make one little bit of difference when you're trying to climb up that wall. And you're still left with the stupidly low-hanging axle brackets (the biggest problem). But you can't move those up far enough to matter because you're not moving the upper mounts up. Remember when I say "either stick with the stock mounts or go all custom"? Every one of your ideas has gone through my head at one point or another over the years of getting better at the suspension game and that's where I ended up.

And that still doesn't address the gas tank or steering box location. Assuming one has the highest-clearance gas tank skid around (Savvy), the gas tank can't move back any further and you can't gain anymore clearance in front of it. Set the axle at full bump, move it back as far as you're able to, and it'll end up where it ends up at ride height. As for the steering, go try to move the front axle more forward, even if you move the track bar mount for some dumb reason. You're practically locked in unless you want to do a **** ton of work that hardly anyone wants to do for 1". Again, your ideas work out fine in your head but you're not realizing the scope of constraints at work here. Once you get under your Jeep and actually try to fulfill these ideas, you'll agree with us.

I agree with the "few people here locally", but my opinion steers more towards the mounts. Again, the arm length is less of a factor than the mounts. I've proven that with my previous setup. Stock mounts = elastic horizontal:vertical movement. Proper mounts = inelastic horizontal:vertical movement. If you'd like, I've got pictures showing the difference with no difference in arm length. Mounts aside, obviously the shorter the arm, the smaller the travel radius will be. But then you have to ask yourself if it matters. Set up the mounts right and it really doesn't.

This I basically agree with.

Significant? Not really. Advantages? Yes.
A. Well considering where the upper mounts on the front axle are located up high, if you lengthen the lower control mounts, you not only increase caster but you also kick the axle forward. So yes its rotating and moving forward because the pivot point would be the upper axle control arm mounts.

B. Not saying that removing all the mounts are a quick and easy job, but with care, and the way they were welded from the factory(single pass), cutting them off and reusing them can be done.

As for the low hanging shock/axle brackets..........this actually can be a blessing in disguise..........if say you go to a SA 3-4" lift and are willing to do some cutting and welding, you can remove and install some control arm axle brackets that go behind the axle tubes(up out from the bottom).......this will help to keep the lower control arms parallel with the ground and reduce axle steer at extreme stuff/droop I would assume. I believe you would then in turn need to remount or use new frame control arm mounts that would be a bit further back on the frame to compensate. This could allow for a bit more lift on short arms with less negative affects correct and in the process allow for less chance of trackbar clearance issues with the diff cover and keep the bumpstops lined up. Question is would you need to do anything with the upper control arm mounts or could you keep those stock?

C. Would the above also solve any clearance issues with the gas tank or steering box? I believe so........but feel free to correct me on this.

D. concerning mounts, who makes a good weld on low profile universal frame control arm mount for SA or mid arm setups?
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