tj front adjustable track bars for 0-3.5", does yours hit or fit? - Page 50 - JeepForum.com
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Unread 11-23-2010, 07:06 PM   #736
Gary2
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A seam or a bump in the road that could bottom out a pair of 2.5" progressive rate springs w3/4" spacers dampened by two OME L series shocks and bump stopped correctly thats on big seam in my book. Sorry have not encountered that yet or anything like it . I suppose anything is possible but I can't give you an answer to that.

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Unread 11-23-2010, 07:16 PM   #737
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A correctly bump-stopped suspension wouldn't allow the track bar to hit anyways though, right?
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Unread 11-23-2010, 07:26 PM   #738
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Originally Posted by -dirt- View Post
A correctly bump-stopped suspension wouldn't allow the track bar to hit anyways though, right?
well...its about maximizing uptravel and downtravel. So if you want to do that, you want to run the least amount of bumpstop. For 2-3" of lift, that usually means 9" travel shocks with a compressed length of ~13.5". Well, 13.5" shocks will fully compress into the stock tower...with no bumpstop extension - awesome right?

But if your track bar hits the diff cover at 1.8" before the bumpstops even hit, then you need 2" bumpstop extension to prevent that collision, right? Well you just lost 2" of uptravel, so now you basically have 7" travel shocks.

So "correctly" bumpstopped at 2" extension, your track bar doesn't hit but you just lost flex and uptravel. So if you have a 2" lift, but you need 2" bumpstop extension, you haven't gained any uptravel from stock, and you now have 7" travel shocks...because you're not using the other 2" of uptravel.

You can add long shocks to put that 2" into downtravel, say 4" lift shocks, which require 2" bumpstop extension anyway. But then you've still got a 2" lift with stock uptravel. The whole point of a lift is to gain uptravel and downtravel, since thats what you use off-road. So if you want to run a low lift, with as little bumpstop as possible to maximize uptravel, you need to make the track bar clear the diff cover at full compression.
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Unread 11-23-2010, 07:36 PM   #739
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Originally Posted by Unlimited04 View Post
well...its about maximizing uptravel and downtravel.
I agree. But the sole purpose of bumpstops is to protect suspension components... Right?
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Unread 11-23-2010, 08:29 PM   #740
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Originally Posted by -dirt- View Post
I agree. But the sole purpose of bumpstops is to protect suspension components... Right?
Well, I consider 3 things:
1) prevent major interference (oil pan vs axle)
2) prevent minor interferences (shocks, tie-rod vs track bar, etc)
3) tire size (run larger tires)

#1 is stuff you can't change without major mods, like cutting holes in the frame, relocating the engine, etc.
#2 is stuff you can change with minor mods, like changing the diff cover, or changing the shock mount location, etc.
#3 is just because you want to stuff something larger in the wheelwell.

So to answer your question directly...yes protection of suspension components is one job of the bumpstops (a major & important one), but not the only job.
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Unread 11-23-2010, 09:00 PM   #741
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Alright, I had 3 guys (roughly 500lbs.) jump on my front bumper repeatedly out in the garage. My track bar did indeed hit the diff cover. This may be the first time it has ever done this, because I have never had the mark on my front diff that the jumping did to it tonight, which looks identical to the pictures I've seen on this thread right before (or after) a track bar failure.

This seems to be a huge issue that has simply been ignored by aftermarket companies. I'd love to know why?

For my own Jeep, I find myself transitioning in exactly what it is I want from it. When I slapped on the RC 2.5" it was a great starter kit and taught me a whole lot about everything that makes up the TJ suspension. I've run 31" tires which have worked great for me and what I do up until now. I was wondering if this problem is alleviated on lift kits higher than 3.5"? That will dictate what the next step is for my rig. I appreciate this thread and everything that has been contributed to it, it might have even saved a few lives; or at least a few Jeeps. Thanks guys!

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Unread 11-24-2010, 06:02 AM   #742
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Originally Posted by Unlimited04 View Post
Well, I consider 3 things:
1) prevent major interference (oil pan vs axle)
2) prevent minor interferences (shocks, tie-rod vs track bar, etc)
3) tire size (run larger tires)
I see what you mean. But IMO track bar contact with the diff would fall into category #1. We've seen this result in the failure of the track bar and ultimately loss of control of the Jeep.

This is why I was hoping Gary2 would reconsider his comment. Others may read it and think theirs is OK too if they just drive casually. You dont have to crawl it to experience this undesirable contact. This contact can ultimately result in bad news, as seen in this thread.
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Unread 11-24-2010, 06:09 AM   #743
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The manufacturer says its made for 0-3.5" of lift . Who am I to say they are wrong when I have not experienced anything to think they are wrong . As I said I am bump stopped correctly which is key .
I had always thought diff cover contact would be more likely to happen with the drivers side at full stuff and passenger at full droop VS both side fully compressed. Like I said though I am just going fishing and needed to cross a couple mud holes and some tight woods roads which is what I altered the TJ for .
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Unread 11-24-2010, 06:20 AM   #744
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Manufacturers put out all kinds of crappy products. Look at the control arms that have double-poly bushings.

If your bumpstops keep the TB off the diff, then more power to you. Those OME L shocks, they may even bottom out before the TB hits.
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Unread 11-24-2010, 06:36 AM   #745
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the bump stops are for the JKS track bar which was the first of my components to require the suspension to be limited on compression . Never had a bottoming out of the shocks , for that matter I doubt I have ever been against the bump stops while driving . Oh and the control arms you mentioned , I have had 4 on the rear for almost 3 years without any repairs or replacement parts needed .I had 4 on the front before the Long arms went on . I know their limitations and keep that in mind when I am driving , they were not expensive and I would not expect them to be as good as arms costing much more. For the most part you get pretty close to what you pay for and I understood that when I bought them them which is why you don't hear me bad mouthing them , I expected no more than what I got .
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Unread 11-24-2010, 07:21 AM   #746
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedTeej View Post
This seems to be a huge issue that has simply been ignored by aftermarket companies. I'd love to know why?
I've played with the front end and a few front track bar revisions to understand this isn't a trivial problem. One reason is because to make a track bar adjustable, companies like to use tube, like Chromoly or DOM. This is the most economical, tough, material to use, but the stock bar is solid. The reason its solid is because the bend that is required in order to clear the diff cover is pretty severe. Usually solid doesn't present much strength over a thick walled tube, but in this case every little bit counts.

So to make the track bar strong enough to not bend, using, many companies cut the bend short, making far less bend or even no bend at all. I think for some of the cheaper companies, like Rough Country, its probably just that they create a cheap crappy product and don't test it completely. In fact, I think the not testing stuff completely is a very large part of the reason we have this problem. I know JKS doesn't test their stuff properly, and they're considered one of the premier track bar makers. Heck, even Currie's TB doesn't work with less than 2" of bumpstop extension on 2.5" of lift. And Currie is regarded as the pinnacle of Jeep stuff. Some companies many not even have the tube/solid bar bending equipment needed to make the necessary geometry reproducably. A good example is the current aftermarket JK track bars...some have the same diff cover problem, but the bend is so severe, and the tube is so small, they actually induce death wobble because the bend is constantly flexing. I think mudb8 or mrblaine posted a video a while back somewhere - parked with someone steering the wheel, you could see the bend flex like 1/2" or more.

EDIT: found it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnZnuOKq85c

Realistically, I don't think many of the manufacturer's actually know how to properly test this stuff. Some even consider the jounce bumper part of the bumpstop height. Some companies consider their stuff as infallible, regardless of what evidence is shown to prove the design is flawed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -dirt- View Post
I see what you mean. But IMO track bar contact with the diff would fall into category #1. We've seen this result in the failure of the track bar and ultimately loss of control of the Jeep.

This is why I was hoping Gary2 would reconsider his comment. Others may read it and think theirs is OK too if they just drive casually. You dont have to crawl it to experience this undesirable contact. This contact can ultimately result in bad news, as seen in this thread.
For some folks, track bar contact may fall into #1. I put it into category #2 because you can have a custom track bar made, and/or modify the diff cover so that it clears. Basically modifying "bolt-on" parts puts it into #2 for me. #1, I regard as required changes that can't be fixed by changing bolt on stuff. But if you don't know how to get a custom track bar made, and you don't want to learn to weld to fix it yourself, then yes, it could be put into #1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary2 View Post
the bump stops are for the JKS track bar which was the first of my components to require the suspension to be limited on compression . Never had a bottoming out of the shocks , for that matter I doubt I have ever been against the bump stops while driving . Oh and the control arms you mentioned , I have had 4 on the rear for almost 3 years without any repairs or replacement parts needed .I had 4 on the front before the Long arms went on . I know their limitations and keep that in mind when I am driving , they were not expensive and I would not expect them to be as good as arms costing much more. For the most part you get pretty close to what you pay for and I understood that when I bought them them which is why you don't hear me bad mouthing them , I expected no more than what I got .
How much bumpstop do you run? Do you mean you run 4" of bumpstop?

and if run 2" of bumpstop, thats the minimum in order to run N66L shocks in front. if you don't have 2" of bumpstop and N66L shocks, that explains why you haven't hit the bumpstops...you are bottoming out the shocks and they act as 2" bumpstops themselves. on 2.5" of lift, thats only a gain of 0.5" uptravel over stock.

if you haven't hit the bumpstops with 0.5" of uptravel over stock you definitely need to get out more. You must drive far more conservatively than everyone else in this thread, including me. I've got nearly 5" of uptravel and I've hit mine many times, both on the street and off-road. Stock, I used to hit the bumpstops on the street all the freakin' time. The jounce bumpers actually wore a bare, shiny steel spot on the front spring pads.
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Unread 11-24-2010, 09:03 AM   #747
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Looks like he's running stock bumpstops:

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f9/dr.../#post10323707

Mudb8 had already mentioned the need for extended bumpstops with the JKS bar:

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f9/tj...l#post10254224
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Unread 11-24-2010, 09:07 AM   #748
chmo
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I think one more reason why the rubbing of after market stock track bars was "hidden" all this time is the necessity of 2" bump stops to mount 33" tires below stock fenders without fenderwell touch REGARDLESS of suspension lift height.
(I consider BLs as kind of highlining )

"Coincidentally" MOST non stock shocks (for more than stock travel) require bump stop extensions as well ... (except the N66 and what else???)

So the maximized uptravel (stock bumpstop, 31" tire) with small 2.5" lifts and N66 in the front has revealed the rubbing.

I have not seen a 4" or even 3" suspension lift with the right shocks in stock mounts WITHOUT necessity for 2"+ bumpstops in the front yet. (gained additional uptravel 1"-2" only!) And there adjustable TBs make sense and do not hit. (and they fit 33" tires)

If you do want to minimize mount modding and supension lift height and maximize uptravel with 33" tires the ideal lift at the moment looks like this:

For the front:
1. OME HD 2" spring
2. 1.25" BL
3. N66 shocks
4. 1" (0.8"?) bump stop extension (so you can fit 33" tires)
5. 0.75 coil spacer on top of stock isolator to regain lost uptravel (moving the spring down )
6. (eventually add a 0.75" spacer to the lower front bar pin mount to rebalance up-and down travel to OME specs)
7. STOCK TRACK BAR (OK with the resulting 2.75" suspension lift)

For the rear :
1. OME HD springs
2. N67 shocks
3. TB relocation Bracket
4. OME 10mm (0.4") levelling coil spacer on top of stock isolator
5. 20mm (0.8") OME BS extension for coil protection as recommended by OME (1.25 BL -> TB bracket does NOT hit tub)
(most likely it is fine for 33" tires as well )

result : 9" travel shocks with stock plus 1.75" (1.95"?) uptravel gain (around 5") and 33" tires and minimal driveline/steering stress and mods...

The only alternative would be a 4" suspension lift with adjustable trackbar(s) to get the same uptravel gain (2" BS extensions for longer shocks and TB) (and one more inch downtravel gain because of longer shocks) and most likely some adjustable control arms and SYE/CV combo.
More complex, more expensive, higher CG, same result (well ... 1.25" more tummy clearance)

The 3" suspension lift scene is somehow out of the race because mostly using shocks for 4" lifts and 2" bumpstops (1" uptravel over stock : )
(or you mod the shock towers and add a 1" BL and reduce the BS extension to 1" for 33" tires -> 2" uptravel gain ... for people who don't fear weld mods)

off topic:
some more optimizations : solid Moog ZJ tierod, experiments with "progressive bump stops" like prothane micro cell foam urethane coil inserts , Currie AntiRock , SYE/CV combo plus UCF tummy tuck and JJ CAs
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Unread 11-24-2010, 09:26 AM   #749
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if you haven't hit the bumpstops with 0.5" of uptravel over stock you definitely need to get out more. You must drive far more conservatively than everyone else in this thread, including me. I've got nearly 5" of uptravel and I've hit mine many times, both on the street and off-road. Stock, I used to hit the bumpstops on the street all the freakin' time. The jounce bumpers actually wore a bare, shiny steel spot on the front spring pads.[/QUOTE]

I am getting out some more now as I am heading into the garage to figure out why I don't have all the trouble I am supposed to have and figure out exactly what I do have in case I am mistake'n about something which is very possible but either way it does work fine for me when I can go fish'n .
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Unread 11-24-2010, 09:27 AM   #750
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Take pics!
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