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Unread 07-13-2010, 09:33 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imped View Post
Why not ditch the stock skid plate with a higher clearance unit and re-evaluate?
Yeah I was thinking about replacing the plate with something with better clearance, since I put a little bend on the front driverside of the plate.

I really do like this method of getting everything higher and more efficient too. But I think a lift would still be needed to get more articulation and less triming. That said, some of the comments have me rethinking the short arm option too

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Unread 07-13-2010, 10:52 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imped View Post
I've driven his tranny/gear combo with 35's. It's not bad at all and with 4:1 low, it's plenty low offroad. He should give the gears a shot before assuming the cost. And I don't think axle shafts are a need with 35's. I run Superiors in the rear only because I had to buy shafts for my Rubi housing anyway. Stock shafts up front with no problems. Locked, full throttle in the rocks. Both gears and shafts would be excellent upgrades but aren't needed....and that's coming from someone who is 100% against halfassing.
I will agree that off road he will have zero problems with his current gears, it won't hurt for him to try it out before he re-gears. The 6 speed is better then the 5 speed, but if he wants to keep his current performance he will need to re-gear.
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Unread 07-13-2010, 12:46 PM   #18
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Okay, so here's what I can gather so far-

If I Choose 33":
-3" SA Lift
-I could get by with 4.1, but should re-gear to 4.88 minimum
-Be good with D44's

If I decide later to go 35" (all the above would apply with some changes):
Add 1" BL (Do I need a MML too? I assume yes)
-I could get away with 4.88, but would be better off with 5.13
-D44's would be okay, but axle upgrade would be advised
-CV Driveshaft
-Bumpstop Adjustment
-New Wheels with better back spacing or wheel spacers
-Brake Upgrade, to be safe

Other Extras at anytime for added benefit:
-Flat belly skid
-Hi Line Fender

What did i miss?
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Unread 07-13-2010, 01:38 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWilson View Post
Okay, so here's what I can gather so far-

If I Choose 33":
-3" SA Lift
-I could get by with 4.1, but should re-gear to 4.88 minimum
-Be good with D44's

If I decide later to go 35" (all the above would apply with some changes):
Add 1" BL (Do I need a MML too? I assume yes)
-I could get away with 4.88, but would be better off with 5.13
-D44's would be okay, but axle upgrade would be advised
-CV Driveshaft
-Bumpstop Adjustment
-New Wheels with better back spacing or wheel spacers
-Brake Upgrade, to be safe

Other Extras at anytime for added benefit:
-Flat belly skid
-Hi Line Fender

What did i miss?
Your D44 axles will be fine for 35" tires, it's just the axle shafts inside the axle that could brake with larger tire size. A lot of people do run stock Rubicon axle shafts with 35" tires, I personally would rather play it safe and run chromo axle shafts instead of probably being ok on the trail.

You will run longer bump stops whenever you make a shock length change, complete suspension kits will come with the correct length for your application.

The gearing really comes down to exactly what your going to do with your jeep, are you going to be driving it on the expressway going 80mph on a regular basis or do you rarely go over 65?

Your going to want the double cardan rear drive shaft even with a 3" lift unless you want to drop your transfer case skid a little, you can always do it for now and get the drive shaft later.

The wheel backspacing doesn't have anything to do with tire height, it's tire width. Most 33" and 35" tires are 12.5" wide, so your going to want to run about 4" of backspace to keep the tires from rubbing. You can always run spacers, but the spacers are a little expensive and if your spending that much you may just want new wheels.
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Unread 07-13-2010, 03:51 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emev0l View Post
Your D44 axles will be fine for 35" tires, it's just the axle shafts inside the axle that could brake with larger tire size. A lot of people do run stock Rubicon axle shafts with 35" tires, I personally would rather play it safe and run chromo axle shafts instead of probably being ok on the trail.

You will run longer bump stops whenever you make a shock length change, complete suspension kits will come with the correct length for your application.

The gearing really comes down to exactly what your going to do with your jeep, are you going to be driving it on the expressway going 80mph on a regular basis or do you rarely go over 65?

Your going to want the double cardan rear drive shaft even with a 3" lift unless you want to drop your transfer case skid a little, you can always do it for now and get the drive shaft later.

The wheel backspacing doesn't have anything to do with tire height, it's tire width. Most 33" and 35" tires are 12.5" wide, so your going to want to run about 4" of backspace to keep the tires from rubbing. You can always run spacers, but the spacers are a little expensive and if your spending that much you may just want new wheels.
With regards to the freeway speed, right now with the current setup, i don't like past 2500rpm in 6th gear or ~65mph. I will however run just over 70mph (3-3.1k) when is going on a road trip (4+ hrs) to save time.
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Unread 07-13-2010, 05:55 PM   #21
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You have the NSG370 6 speed, the LOWEST geared transmission ever put in a TJ. With 4.10's you're absolutely geared perfectly for 33's. 4.88 would be too low for the highway. Some numbers:

33's (actually 32"), 6 speed, 4.10 @ 65mph: 2356 RPM
35's (actually 34"), 6 speed, 4.10 @ 65mph: 2217 RPM

To compare to the NV3550 5 speed and "generally accepted" gear ratios:

33's, 4.56 @ 65mph: 2427 RPM
35's, 4.88 @ 65mph: 2445 RPM

The 6 speed OD is .84, 6% lower than the NV3550 and 5% lower than the AX-15. Due to this, I would actually suggest putting the $1k you would normally put toward gears into something else IF you run 33's. With 35's, it's a toss up. Like I said, I've driven that combo and my picky *** thought it was geared pretty well. I would suggest reading build threads here and on Pirate4x4 and learning the ins and outs of what this stuff actually means and how it actually works.....suspension, bump stops, gears, wheelbase, etc. Right now, you're just going on info others give you. Once you really understand WHY, you can make your own well-informed decisions.
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Unread 07-13-2010, 07:57 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emev0l View Post
Your going to want the double cardan rear drive shaft even with a 3" lift unless you want to drop your transfer case skid a little, you can always do it for now and get the drive shaft later.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imped View Post
The 6 speed OD is .84, 6% lower than the NV3550 and 5% lower than the AX-15. Due to this, I would actually suggest putting the $1k you would normally put toward gears into something else IF you run 33's. With 35's, it's a toss up. Like I said, I've driven that combo and my picky *** thought it was geared pretty well. I would suggest reading build threads here and on Pirate4x4 and learning the ins and outs of what this stuff actually means and how it actually works.....suspension, bump stops, gears, wheelbase, etc. Right now, you're just going on info others give you. Once you really understand WHY, you can make your own well-informed decisions.
Okay, tires are the factor that dictate what could be the "ideal setup for" : suspension lift height, CV driveshafts, gearing, axle shafts, brakes, etc. I agree with IMPED that more investigation/knowledgebase is needed to make the appropriate modification plan.

If i take tire size out of the equation for a monent and look back to the basis for my problem, How could i get clearance under the vehicle, now without a tire change? Without tires i can't get anymore clearance to the diff's. I assume that anything 3" plus suspension will Require a CV change. From here i could go back to what IMPED stated earlier -
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imped View Post
Why not ditch the stock skid plate with a higher clearance unit and re-evaluate? Here's what I'd do:

1.25" body lift
1" MML
UCF high clearance skid plate or similar (lopro mount would be easier on driveline angles)

That would gain you ~2.25" at the belly with no other ill effects. You could run 33's on that as well, which would gain you another 1" at the belly. Your jeep is already geared fine for 33's and decent for 35's. You already have disc brakes at all 4 corners so that's decent. Your primary concern should be to beef up the steering and add the smaller skid plates--steering box and oil pan.
My next question is in regards to the Drive shaft angles? At what point is it not good to push them? I understand that extreme angles put stress on U-joints. So with the 1.25" BL and 1" MML, would it require change to the CV?
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Unread 07-13-2010, 08:03 PM   #23
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let the record show that the first gear in the NSG370 is 4.46:1. the stock crawl ratio is 73.14. not too bad.
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Unread 07-13-2010, 09:55 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWilson View Post
Okay, tires are the factor that dictate what could be the "ideal setup for" : suspension lift height, CV driveshafts, gearing, axle shafts, brakes, etc. I agree with IMPED that more investigation/knowledgebase is needed to make the appropriate modification plan.

If i take tire size out of the equation for a monent and look back to the basis for my problem, How could i get clearance under the vehicle, now without a tire change? Without tires i can't get anymore clearance to the diff's. I assume that anything 3" plus suspension will Require a CV change. From here i could go back to what IMPED stated earlier -


My next question is in regards to the Drive shaft angles? At what point is it not good to push them? I understand that extreme angles put stress on U-joints. So with the 1.25" BL and 1" MML, would it require change to the CV?
1) You should put a double cardan shaft near the top of your list. Even if you don't 'need' it, it's the 'right' way to do it. Don't push the u joints, you'll be sorry you did. A body lift has no effect at all on driveline angles, which is one reason a small body lift is a good thing. The MML has a small positive effect on driveline angles and maintains the factory relationship between the fan shroud and fan when combined with a body lift. A MML has no disadvantages and should definitely be done, especially if you want to raise the transfer case. If you can visualize the engine/transmission/t-case orientation along with the motor mounts and transmission mount, you'll understand why.

2) You can fit 35's on ~2.5 of lift with no issues. Go highline fenders and they will fit very comfortably with less. Tires don't dictate driveline angles. The vertical relationship between the transfer case and axles dictates driveline angles.....obviously. A guy running 4" of suspension lift with 33's has a higher driveline angle than someone running 3" of suspension lift on 35's. Conversely, the fella with 3" of suspension lift and a flat transfer case skid will have considerably higher driveline angles than the guy with 4" and the stock skid. He'll also have ~4" more at the belly. The amount the transfer case is raised over stock ~equivalent to suspension lift.....the transfer case is seeing the same thing. It doesn't know the difference.

3) I'm a fan of lower suspension heights and maximum clearance while being able to adjust to any changes so put a full set of adjustable control arms on the list too. With 2.5" of susp. lift, 1.25" body lift, and a Rokmen skid, I've got 17" under the belly. I'm making a flat skid that will get me to 19". The transfer case is seeing the same angle as ~7" of suspension lift. Personally, I don't feel comfortable running higher driveline angles than that on a SWB TJ. With more suspension height + a flat skid, I'd break that rule and the angles would be too high for my comfort. The CV would bind before full droop as well.

I know I'm getting in depth here so I just hope it helps you think. Once you realize how everything interacts, things will start to click. Let me know if you have anymore questions--otherwise, I'm tired of typing so much.
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Unread 07-14-2010, 05:38 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWilson View Post
If i take tire size out of the equation for a monent and look back to the basis for my problem, How could i get clearance under the vehicle, now without a tire change? Without tires i can't get anymore clearance to the diff's.
Very true, the only way to gain more clearance at the diffs is with taller tires.

You can gain more clearance at the transfer case skid with a high clearance transfer case skid (tummy tuck), you can also gain clearance at the gas tank skid. Most tummy tucks and aftermarket gas tank skids need a body lift to work. There are some companies that make tummy tucks and gas tanks that do not require a body lift but still give more clearance but there generally more expensive.
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Unread 07-14-2010, 05:46 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imped View Post
Why not ditch the stock skid plate with a higher clearance unit and re-evaluate? Here's what I'd do:

1.25" body lift
1" MML
UCF high clearance skid plate or similar (lopro mount would be easier on driveline angles)

That would gain you ~2.25" at the belly with no other ill effects. You could run 33's on that as well, which would gain you another 1" at the belly. Your jeep is already geared fine for 33's and decent for 35's. You already have disc brakes at all 4 corners so that's decent. Your primary concern should be to beef up the steering and add the smaller skid plates--steering box and oil pan. With the higher clearance skid plate, any suspension lift added on top of that will require adjustable rear control arms and a CV shaft. Since you have a Rubi, you don't need a SYE since you already have a fixed yoke. I'd keep the suspension lift low for multiple reasons--less likely to roll (lower cog), better suspension geometry on short arms, and fewer costs.

You're already setup to run 35's pretty well as long as you beef up the steering. It won't cost you "several thousand" due to the fact that you have a 6 speed Rubi.
do ^that first. You'll end up doing it any way
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Unread 07-14-2010, 05:49 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imped View Post
You have the NSG370 6 speed, the LOWEST geared transmission ever put in a TJ. With 4.10's you're absolutely geared perfectly for 33's. 4.88 would be too low for the highway. Some numbers:

33's (actually 32"), 6 speed, 4.10 @ 65mph: 2356 RPM
35's (actually 34"), 6 speed, 4.10 @ 65mph: 2217 RPM

To compare to the NV3550 5 speed and "generally accepted" gear ratios:

33's, 4.56 @ 65mph: 2427 RPM
35's, 4.88 @ 65mph: 2445 RPM

The 6 speed OD is .84, 6% lower than the NV3550 and 5% lower than the AX-15. Due to this, I would actually suggest putting the $1k you would normally put toward gears into something else IF you run 33's. With 35's, it's a toss up. Like I said, I've driven that combo and my picky *** thought it was geared pretty well. I would suggest reading build threads here and on Pirate4x4 and learning the ins and outs of what this stuff actually means and how it actually works.....suspension, bump stops, gears, wheelbase, etc. Right now, you're just going on info others give you. Once you really understand WHY, you can make your own well-informed decisions.
If 4.88's with 35" tires would be to low of a gear for the highway then his 31" tires with 4.10 gears must be to low for the highway.

If he likes how his jeep accelerates now, and he likes the RPM's that he runs right now then 4.88's is where he wants to be.

If he doesn't mind the loss of acceleration then he can stick with what he has now. If he's going to run 33's for now then I wouldn't touch the axles until he moves up to 35's.
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Unread 07-14-2010, 07:33 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imped View Post
I'm a fan of lower suspension heights and maximum clearance while being able to adjust to any changes so put a full set of adjustable control arms on the list too. With 2.5" of susp. lift, 1.25" body lift, and a Rokmen skid, I've got 17" under the belly. I'm making a flat skid that will get me to 19". The transfer case is seeing the same angle as ~7" of suspension lift. Personally, I don't feel comfortable running higher driveline angles than that on a SWB TJ. With more suspension height + a flat skid, I'd break that rule and the angles would be too high for my comfort. The CV would bind before full droop as well.
When I first started this all I assumed the only way to get clearance was a suspension lift. Then I learned more about the body lift addition. The more I read, as "cool" as it is to have a huge suspension lift, it doesn't seem to hold the off-road impact that a low COG mindset with does. So, with a redirection towards low COG, a BL/MML/Tummy Tuck seams inevitable. In looking into a TT (Rokmen or AEV) in the directions for installation they say the stock driveshaft can be used if no suspension lift has been used. Is this one way of saying you could get by with stock, but in reality you are putting more stress on the system and should have upgraded to double cardan shaft? Reason I ask is since most jeeps are a WIP I'm trying to see if I could do the driveshaft change once later with suspension, or it it's needed for any change in driveline.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imped View Post
1) Tires don't dictate driveline angles. The vertical relationship between the transfer case and axles dictates driveline angles.....obviously. A guy running 4" of suspension lift with 33's has a higher driveline angle than someone running 3" of suspension lift on 35's. Conversely, the fella with 3" of suspension lift and a flat transfer case skid will have considerably higher driveline angles than the guy with 4" and the stock skid. He'll also have ~4" more at the belly. The amount the transfer case is raised over stock ~equivalent to suspension lift.....the transfer case is seeing the same thing. It doesn't know the difference.
Back to the tires. I understand that tires don't directly affect driveline angles. I meant it more in relationship to – 35's will require a lift, and any lift combo for 35's (4" susp or 2.5" susp & 1.25BL", etc) will require new CV. Where as with a BL, MML, & TT I could either: keep the stock 31" or stuff 33's the to get clearance, until the "leap" to 35's (both assuming I can use stock driveshaft as stated above). I understanding the debate of what is a suggested/required component upgrades for 35" and which I will continue to take input and research.
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Unread 07-14-2010, 07:43 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWilson View Post
When I first started this all I assumed the only way to get clearance was a suspension lift. Then I learned more about the body lift addition. The more I read, as "cool" as it is to have a huge suspension lift, it doesn't seem to hold the off-road impact that a low COG mindset with does. So, with a redirection towards low COG, a BL/MML/Tummy Tuck seams inevitable. In looking into a TT (Rokmen or AEV) in the directions for installation they say the stock driveshaft can be used if no suspension lift has been used. Is this one way of saying you could get by with stock, but in reality you are putting more stress on the system and should have upgraded to double cardan shaft? Reason I ask is since most jeeps are a WIP I'm trying to see if I could do the driveshaft change once later with suspension, or it it's needed for any change in driveline.



Back to the tires. I understand that tires don't directly affect driveline angles. I meant it more in relationship to – 35's will require a lift, and any lift combo for 35's (4" susp or 2.5" susp & 1.25BL", etc) will require new CV. Where as with a BL, MML, & TT I could either: keep the stock 31" or stuff 33's the to get clearance, until the "leap" to 35's (both assuming I can use stock driveshaft as stated above). I understanding the debate of what is a suggested/required component upgrades for 35" and which I will continue to take input and research.
Now you have the right idea, the best way to look at when you need a double cardan drive shaft is the drive shaft angle. The angle on a TJ becomes to harsh somewhere between 2.5" and 3.5" of lift. Pushing your transfer case up for a tummy tuck also starts to put the drive shaft on a bad angle. If you push the transfer case up 2" and you have a 2" suspension lift then from your drive shafts point of view you have a 4" lift.

You can do a tummy tuck and not need a double cardan drive shaft, or you can run a 2.5" suspension lift and not run a double cardan drive shaft. You can not run a tummy tuck and any amount of lift unless you have a double cardan drive shaft.

Whenever you run a double cardan drive shaft you need adjustable upper control arms to point your pinion towards your transfer case. Any good suspension lift will come with adjustable upper control arms.
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Unread 07-14-2010, 12:17 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emev0l View Post
If 4.88's with 35" tires would be to low of a gear for the highway then his 31" tires with 4.10 gears must be to low for the highway.

If he likes how his jeep accelerates now, and he likes the RPM's that he runs right now then 4.88's is where he wants to be.

If he doesn't mind the loss of acceleration then he can stick with what he has now. If he's going to run 33's for now then I wouldn't touch the axles until he moves up to 35's.
I was referring to 4.88's and 33's. I think it should be obvious that I'm an advocate for low gearing but with the NSG, that combo would be awfully low. He'd be @ 2800 RPM @ 65mph. No reason for that, especially since he has 4:1 low.
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