The tipping point (off camber) - JeepForum.com
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post #1 of 40 Old 08-16-2017, 06:42 PM Thread Starter
dlampe
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The tipping point (off camber)

This is a hypothetical question but the off camber trails make me the most nervous. I just trying to understand the different dynamics associated with why some Jeeps seem more stable in these situations. So if you had two identical jeeps only difference is that one had normal suspension and one had no suspension (remember, hypothetical), which one would tip over first as the camber increased? The one that would feel tippy as the suspension loaded on the down hill side or the one that did not sway?

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post #2 of 40 Old 08-16-2017, 07:30 PM
Jerry Bransford
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There is no specific answer to your question, it depends on a lot of variables. Traction, trail surface, suspension, if the driver can avoid doing something stupid, etc.

Jon on Sunbonnet didn't roll his Jeep here on Sunbonnet in Johnson Valley, I didn't roll mine on the Gatekeeper in Doran Canyon near Barstow California.

The bottom line is our TJs can be tipped over a lot further without rolling than most would guess.
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post #3 of 40 Old 08-16-2017, 08:07 PM Thread Starter
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Since posting the question I have been reading some other post. It seems like the currie antirock is a good solution to improve offroad "tippyness". Is that a fair statement?
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post #4 of 40 Old 08-16-2017, 08:09 PM
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Currie's Antirock definitely improves on a Jeep's stability in tippy-iffy-uneven trail conditions.

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post #5 of 40 Old 08-16-2017, 08:22 PM
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Many times,I have been stopped and parked at what I thought was an severe angle. I'll get out for whatever reason, look back and wonder why I thought the angle was severe. I think most of the fear is in our heads. The psychology of a trail is a very interesting aspect of offroad driving

Controlling movement goes a long way towards maintaining stability. The Antirock is one of many components and design considerations that contribute to this.

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post #6 of 40 Old 08-16-2017, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by jjvw View Post
Many times,I have been stopped and parked at what I thought was an severe angle. I'll get out for whatever reason, look back and wonder why I thought the angle was severe. I think most of the fear is in our heads. The psychology of a trail is a very interesting aspect of offroad driving.
X2 exactly.

I took my wife out offroading on an extremely easy gentle beginner trail many years ago. We weren't even in 4x4 yet when the Jeep was on the gentlest of very slightly off-camber sections. Less steep than many freeway on or offramps. She started freaking out and screaming at me that we were going to roll. I stopped the Jeep and after helping her out, led her to 20-25' behind the Jeep where she was able to tell it was barely tipped any at all.

Her being able to see that our Jeep was not even close to rolling helped her a lot. Our stomachs and minds can play some serious tricks on us.
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post #7 of 40 Old 08-16-2017, 08:58 PM
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When I first started wheeling, my wife's instructor told us that there will be two things that will kick our butts that we need to learn how to do and how to deal with. 1st was going backwards, 2nd was being offcamber. I made it a point to get good at both and neither scare me much any more.

The best thing you can do is find out where your comfort level is and then keep working past it. My buddy Sergey in this pic below is in motion. He's fearless.



I'm not as fearless but I've had to drive out of several what would have been flops had I continued what I was doing.

This was not one of those and the rock on the low side is only touching the fabric on the trail door, not the rocker.


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post #8 of 40 Old 08-17-2017, 12:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford View Post
Jon on Sunbonnet didn't roll his Jeep here on Sunbonnet in Johnson Valley, I didn't roll mine on the Gatekeeper in Doran Canyon near Barstow California.
There's nowhere to roll. The rocks are keeping you from doing that.

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post #9 of 40 Old 08-17-2017, 08:40 AM Thread Starter
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I think you are right to the extent that a lot of it is in my head. I rolled a JK 2 years ago and I'm a little gun shy. It's something that I will work through but in the mean time I want to do what I can, mechanically, to help me enjoy the trail. I am trying to keep the weight down and be as low as I can within reason. Outside of the antirock on the front, should I be looking at other adjustments on my LJ? Collectively, you guys have over 100,000 post. I'm open to any of your suggestions.
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post #10 of 40 Old 08-17-2017, 08:53 AM
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I don't believe the AR or any other connected swaybar is changing the point at which you flop. It is just minimizing weight shift that could put you beyond that point. If this is a real concern of yours don't disconnect.

As far as other things, I think 37s on OEM width axles and OEM wheelbase is bad idea for a lot of reasons. 35s are the biggest I'd run without wider axles at a minimum and probably more wheelbase. Are you really running trails that you need 37s? How about your shocks? You have the Foxes with the dials? What are you setting them on?
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post #11 of 40 Old 08-17-2017, 08:59 AM
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just get a Clinometer you will be fine...

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post #12 of 40 Old 08-17-2017, 08:59 AM
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There's nowhere to roll. The rocks are keeping you from doing that.
Sometimes that is true. I did find some more pics that will help those that think JV is boring with a few different perspectives.



This is a bypass.



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post #13 of 40 Old 08-17-2017, 09:11 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by biffgnar View Post
I don't believe the AR or any other connected swaybar is changing the point at which you flop. It is just minimizing weight shift that could put you beyond that point. If this is a real concern of yours don't disconnect.

As far as other things, I think 37s on OEM width axles and OEM wheelbase is bad idea for a lot of reasons. 35s are the biggest I'd run without wider axles at a minimum and probably more wheelbase. Are you really running trails that you need 37s? How about your shocks? You have the Foxes with the dials? What are you setting them on?
Thanks for your input. So if I understand you correctly, you believe that the degree of camber I can safely traverse would be the same with the AR as it would just disconnected?

My Jeep is an LJ so my wheelbase is extended but you're right about the stock axle width + spacers. I typically don't run trails where I would need 37's. If I'm being truly honest, I like how it looks with the 37's. There is the occasional obstacle where the 37's help but I'm sure 35's would have been good enough. With the metalcloak fenders I can easily get by with my 3.5 inch lift and still have good shock travel balance without getting to tall. My shocks are set on the 3rd click from the softest.
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post #14 of 40 Old 08-17-2017, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by mrblaine View Post
Sometimes that is true. I did find some more pics that will help those that think JV is boring with a few different perspectives.



This is a bypass.



What you Cali guys do amazes me! I hate rocks and have no patience at all for crawling slow and tech stuff (I raced motocross in my younger days and was considered Crazy by my best competitors). I used to only do mud pits, but that crap (mud) lasts for years. We have a local "rock garden" that looks like pebbles compared to what you guys do. If these pics were posted with all the debates on "Quality parts" and not buying cheap Chinese crap, you wouldn't get an argument or debate.
Unfortunately I'm in the 90% of Jeep owners that have no need for that or parts that hold up to that. I respect everyone and what they do to their Jeeps. You said it long ago. "You don't build your Jeep for others opinions and they should do the same". Paraphrasing at it's worst. I try to respect everyone and their Jeep needs. Even the guy on here with neon green wheels to match his decals, He blamed it on his 3 year old daughter.
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post #15 of 40 Old 08-17-2017, 09:27 AM
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Thanks for your input. So if I understand you correctly, you believe that the degree of camber I can safely traverse would be the same with the AR as it would just disconnected?
I believe the point at which you tip doesn't change, but I don't think I would say the last part. Well, the last part would be true if there was no potential for weight shifting, but trails aren't like that. You know there can be dips in the trail, you can slide off a rock, etc., that triggers weight shift and that weight shift potentially takes you beyond the point of flopping. With swaybars connected that weight shift, if it happens, will be smaller and more controlled.
Because of that difference in performance there are things I'd feel much less "safe" doing disconnected than connected.

And for 37s, I'd want more wheelbase than even LJs came with stock. As to your comment of 35s v. 37s, I believe that at OEM axle width (and if I were going wider it would be axle swap to 64-65" not spacers) you get better travel out of 35s than 37s.
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