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Unread 10-18-2011, 12:01 PM   #16
FleshEater
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I really could care less about this...just figured that if you want to start arguments and debates then write it up with numbers and facts. Show us the performance improvements on a dyno and whatever else there is to go along with this. I have no desire to do this to a vehicle and I'm not a hippie tree hugger that cares about "cleaner emissions"...so...prove your point and write it up with numbers.

Does it bother you that I'm so uneducated I run an 87' XJ with no cat on it?

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Unread 10-18-2011, 12:07 PM   #17
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FE- your ignorance, arogance attitude do nothing to support the enjoyment of this forum. Thanks for nothin'
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Unread 10-18-2011, 12:20 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by dday930 View Post
Luckily I can happily disagree having done this in another vehicle with an average of 70% improvement,and that's on a newer vehicle with a tricky Wideband O2 sensor. The TJ should be much easier with a single Narrow band O2 pre cat. I'll be happy to save money, improve performance, and have much cleaner emissions. But if you disagree or think its a pharce, sorry... Your loss!
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Why not do a complete write up, dyno tests and later on an engine tear down to see how metal handles water.


Funny...it would appear that you dday930 are the arrogant one on this thread. By me asking you to do a complete write up on the subject I'm an arrogant, ignorant member? I'm pretty sure it was YOU that started attacking me for no reason and calling me names...Now...if you're going to "happily disagree" and make statements like above claiming that this an excellent system then when/if someone claims it's a waste put your money where your mouth is and PROVE it.

If I'm way out of line someone besides the OP let me know...I really don't see how asking for a write up is off the wall arrogant and ignorant...oh and I didn't realize water wasn't used (holy jeebus I'm such a sinner the friendly earth people should banish me).
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Unread 10-18-2011, 12:36 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by dday930 View Post
Luckily I can happily disagree having done this in another vehicle with an average of 70% improvement,and that's on a newer vehicle with a tricky Wideband O2 sensor. The TJ should be much easier with a single Narrow band O2 pre cat.
Actually, what you're not understanding is how stupid the TJ's PCM is. There O2 sensor on your jeep, there's 4 - one in each end of the two exhaust manifold, and one after each mini-cat. The 97-04 PCM's are not tunable since noone has actually cracked the JTEC coding fully. 05-06 are tunable, the 01 you have is not and the sensor update time is pretty slow.

Thats why I say the screwing with the HHO isn't worth it. Not because I'm against hydrogen, saving money or alternative fuels, I'm just trying to save you the headache many have already found out - and thats the TJ OBDII PCM doesn't cooperate well with mods & fuel delivery.
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Unread 10-18-2011, 12:45 PM   #20
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UL04, its not really a process of cracking the ECU code and reprogramming, there are devices (EFIE) that slightly modify the voltage on the sensors, tricking the ECU to think its getting 14.7:1 A/F ratio. Having worked on a tricky, Japanese Wideband, it works great. Since the TJ has fewer sensors and less redundancy, I'm hoping its easier as many write ups I have researched on narrow band O2's are easier. And last I checked (about a month ago), I had a single O2 before and 1 O2 post Cat. I will check tonight, but don't Cali emissions have 4 O2's and Fed have 2... I'll figure it out when I get into it. EFIE devices are out there to accomodate 4 sensor setups as well....
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Unread 10-18-2011, 12:49 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by dday930 View Post
UL04, its not really a process of cracking the ECU code and reprogramming, there are devices (EFIE) that slightly modify the voltage on the sensors, tricking the ECU to think its getting 14.7:1 A/F ratio. Having worked on a tricky, Japanese Wideband, it works great. Since the TJ has fewer sensors and less redundancy, I'm hoping its easier as many write ups I have researched on narrow band O2's are easier. And last I checked (about a month ago), I had a single O2 before and 1 O2 post Cat. I will check tonight, but don't Cali emissions have 4 O2's and Fed have 2... I'll figure it out when I get into it. EFIE devices are out there to accomodate 4 sensor setups as well....
Good luck. Do a detailed scientific write-up so others can understand what you've done and how to duplicate the results.
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Unread 10-18-2011, 01:03 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Unlimited04 View Post
Good luck. Do a detailed scientific write-up so others can understand what you've done and how to duplicate the results.

I can understand the concept of tricking a sensor into thinkng the motor is running at 14.7:1 because of the way my UniChip works as a piggyback but I'm with you..... I want to see it done on a JTEC controller.
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Unread 10-18-2011, 01:43 PM   #23
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As a previous poster already pointed out: http://aardvark.co.nz/hho.shtml

In a nutshell, the HHO purports to violate the 1st law of thermodynamics.

Now, if you are here in prep attempt to start selling this snake-oil to forum members, I understand your insistence in these posts. Otherwise, I question your understanding of the physics behind the HHO generator claims.
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Unread 10-18-2011, 03:16 PM   #24
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JB- That article is correct in many ways, and wrong in others. First, I have nothing to sell, I'm a projects type of person looking for help here at JF- I've done research that has proven my skepticism wrong, and have taken theory into practice. I'm not sure if my previous project is running on magic, but here is what I understand is at play. The first law of T/D is true, I'm not one who can speak to disproving that... 'It is what it is'. But let me offer you a though about how I've come to learn how this works. Take gasoline... have you ever burned it right on top of a fire? It's pretty explosive, burns quickly. Have you ever done the same with diesel? It's just the opposite, 'if' you can get it to burn, it's not as explosive, but burns MUCH hotter. What if you mix the two? It's a great bonfire starter. It burns HOT, and is much less explosive (depending on the concentration of course). Now how about the same ideas applied with highly explosive gases? I haven't taken hydrogen nor oxygen in pure form and seen how they burn/explode. BUT....I do know they explode and are quite efficient in their burning. What I have been able to do in my previous project is create a low power consuming electrolysis process to create my HHO gas. I use 12v @ 6 amps pumped through my generator with a highly efficient electrolyte to aid in the electrical conduction thru the fluid/water. It creates about 1~2 liters of HHO gas per minute. This gets pumped into the intake manifold and burns at the same time as the gasoline. So what I am seeing happen, is gasoline plus hydrogen and extra oxygen are added to the burn chamber. In the added concentration, it causes the gasoline to burn MUCH more efficiently, creating a little more power, less gasoline consumption, and with the addition of the HHO, when burned and passed through the catalytic converter, out the tail pipe is the water that went into the process.
I certainly have no interest in claiming I'm a scientist (far from it), but I didn't think this was possible, but all the 'science' I've research shows that with a low amperage, high efficient HHO generator, you can cause your gasoline to burn more efficiently, in turn, needing less gas to travel the same distance. Now the 2nd half of the project needs to be talked about. Since the ECM is looking for oxygen sensors to tell the system it is burning 14.7:1 A/F, you need to do some trickery to get a leaner running engine to reduce the fuel input. Do this by raising the coolant sensor and the intake temp sensor, these cause the ECM of a car to lean our the Air/fule ratios. Then, retard the timing some to get a more efficient burn in the cylinder. if you can get these items in check, then you just need to do a little trickery on the O2 sensors so they don't tell the ECU there is a lean condition. These last steps are accomplished with the EFIE. I had to do a lot of reading to learn all about this, but I hope this summary 'might' make sense... I felt it 'could' make sense in reality, so I gave it a shot, and found it's possible!

Trying to do this with a Jeep is worth it IMHO. They are fun, easy to work on, and the benefit is hopefully simple cash in my pocket. I get frustrated with people who think they know everything, and this topic is a touchy one I have come to learn- My response to many is put the time in to ask questions, learn, understand, rather then assume answers. The biggest thing I found about the research is that there is not a 'ton' of websites out there to offer this technology. Only did I learn why... is that there are VERY large corporations with hundreds of billions to lose if oil is used less, while using that big money to keep stuff like this quiet. They are not afraid to but pressure on websites and independent small businesses trying new things in this field.

I'm hoping to find a device that help in the tuning process, read the sensor data and allow for the necessary modifications to the ECM. Like I noted, I came here for help, and it's difficult getting bullied around on a message board sometimes.
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Unread 10-18-2011, 05:08 PM   #25
Robert J. yates
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Originally Posted by dday930 View Post
I'm hoping to find a device that help in the tuning process, read the sensor data and allow for the necessary modifications to the ECM. Like I noted, I came here for help, and it's difficult getting bullied around on a message board sometimes.
Nobody is bullying you but rather stating the obvious.... there is currently no product on the shelf right now that will allow somebody to manipulate an early JTEC OBDII controller. A few of us have been there done that and are using piggybacks as a bandaid.

As I said earlier... if you figure out a way to hack into the JTEC please post it up because there are a few of us who would like to see that done.
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Unread 10-18-2011, 05:19 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by dday930 View Post
I'm hoping to find a device that help in the tuning process, read the sensor data and allow for the necessary modifications to the ECM. Like I noted, I came here for help, and it's difficult getting bullied around on a message board sometimes.
No one is bullying you. Like Robert has reiterated - There is nothing to tune or modify the 97-04 ECM. Thats the problem...and not just with your proposition, but its also a problem Robert went through on his highly modified 4.0L, RIPP has gone through with their superchargers, and many other performance manufacturers have gone through with OBDII JTEC PCMs. The issue is not limited to TJ's either - go poke around Dodge Neon SRT4s forums. similar problems. Closest thing to a solution is a piggyback (SplitSecond FTC-1 or Unichip).
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Unread 10-21-2011, 08:13 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Sahara0643 View Post
Take a look at the Diablo Trinity, it may have what you are looking for.
At first I didn't see what year TJ you had, but the Trinity is only good for 05-10.

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Originally Posted by Unlimited04 View Post
The issue is not limited to TJ's either - go poke around Dodge Neon SRT4s forums. similar problems. Closest thing to a solution is a piggyback (SplitSecond FTC-1 or Unichip).
When I was looking at the Diablo site they do list the Trinity as working on 03-05 Neon SRT4.

Daiblo Trinity Link
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Unread 10-21-2011, 08:33 AM   #28
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When I was looking at the Diablo site they do list the Trinity as working on 03-05 Neon SRT4.

Daiblo Trinity Link
yea, its a cool product & pretty new, does awesome stuff. too bad it only works on 05+ TJ computers since they're totally different than 97-04...
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Unread 10-21-2011, 08:55 AM   #29
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Like to see you get this project done
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