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Unread 01-19-2010, 06:29 PM   #226
emev0l
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckrider View Post
Looks like I have been corrected. I will argue some about the aluminum frame though. In order to make the design for one of those to work, you would have to create a structure that is completely out of the nature for an offroader. You mention the Corvette, look at the frame though. The frame of the Vette is not even close to the TJs frame.

I know bodies have been made out of aluminum, I have just recently seen Flat Fenders for Tjs made out of the stuff. The axles though, I was completly unaware of. If they can make it would (I imagine they do), then that is fricken awesome. I did forget about the d44a when I wrote that. Motors are nothing fancy when it comes to aluminum. Aluminum seems to be a great material for blocks and heads.

Here is a serious question now, would you trust your lift to an aluminum roll cage? I don't think so with 3800lbs (about what I would expect a fully loaded AL Jeep would weigh).
I'm the wrong guy to ask if I trust my life to an aluminum roll cage, I ride crotch rockets lol.

If it's the right aluminum and it's thick enough it will work better then steel. Have you cut threw the stock TJ roll bar, it's really thin.

The aluminum skids seem to take the full 3,800 lbs ok, I haven't seen what the aluminum bumpers look like after hitting some trees, but if someone has a pic I wouldn't mind seeing that.

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Unread 01-19-2010, 06:36 PM   #227
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Well that is what I mean. I doubt there will ever be a roll cage on the market that can be properly designed to create such a balance between cost and strength that it wouldn't sell. As you said, that cage is a part of the frame. The curved design is should help provide strength. IIRC, you are an engineer, correct?

It all comes down to what can be done at a reasonable cost, not just what can be done. I bet enough money could make lumpster's dream possible, but Blaine is already creating products that are at the fringe of strength, weight, and cost. He also works things out to grow with the vehicle. A frame of al would HAVE to have the cage designed from the start to create an effective mesh of metal that would properly fulfill its duties.

I got up close and personal with that frame at the 2005 NY International Autoshow. The design of it shows what care is taken to keep a strong design.
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Unread 01-19-2010, 06:37 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by Luckrider View Post
There is a reason why only certain things are made from aluminum (aside from cost). I don't think you would want an axle that would flex like Carbon Fiber as you go over every bump.
Don't say that too loud around Blaine's Aluminum Currie 60. It gets offended easily. So I've heard.
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Unread 01-19-2010, 06:41 PM   #229
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Don't say that too loud around Blaine's Aluminum Currie 60. It gets offended easily. So I've heard.
lol, I have been corrected, and admitted my mistake. I learn new things every day, and I find it cool that there is a beast axle made from the light stuff.

I wonder how long it is before companies start marketing the Aluminum products as Jeep Mods light. All the strength, less regret.
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Unread 01-19-2010, 06:45 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by Luckrider View Post
Well that is what I mean. I doubt there will ever be a roll cage on the market that can be properly designed to create such a balance between cost and strength that it wouldn't sell. As you said, that cage is a part of the frame. The curved design is should help provide strength. IIRC, you are an engineer, correct?

It all comes down to what can be done at a reasonable cost, not just what can be done. I bet enough money could make lumpster's dream possible, but Blaine is already creating products that are at the fringe of strength, weight, and cost. He also works things out to grow with the vehicle. A frame of al would HAVE to have the cage designed from the start to create an effective mesh of metal that would properly fulfill its duties.

I got up close and personal with that frame at the 2005 NY International Autoshow. The design of it shows what care is taken to keep a strong design.
I actually did some googleing and there are already companies that make aluminum jeep tubs and frames, no prices, so I'm sure there quite a bit and custom to each job so a generic price isn't possible. I personally would rather build a buggy then modify a TJ if I was worried about the weigh enough to get an aluminum frame and body.

If you thought an aluminum roll cage was scary look up carbon fiber roll cages.
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Unread 01-19-2010, 06:59 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by Luckrider View Post
Well that is what I mean. I doubt there will ever be a roll cage on the market that can be properly designed to create such a balance between cost and strength that it wouldn't sell. As you said, that cage is a part of the frame. The curved design is should help provide strength. IIRC, you are an engineer, correct?
yup i'm an engineer...what are you getting at?

i stand by my previous statement - nothing wrong with a properly designed aluminum or even carbon fiber roll cage. both have already been proven in racing applications.... in fact, carbon fiber is stupid strong...just stupid stupid strong.

and cost is relative. some people will pay $4000 for a 6-piston brake system, but others will not pay $200 for EBC pads to make their vehicle stop at the local middle school crosswalk. similarly some people will buy an $800 car and put $8000 wheels on it....

if somebody is willing to pay for an aluminum roll cage for their Jeep, rest assured someone will be there to build and install it.
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Unread 01-19-2010, 07:00 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by emev0l View Post
I actually did some googleing and there are already companies that make aluminum jeep tubs and frames, no prices, so I'm sure there quite a bit and custom to each job so a generic price isn't possible. I personally would rather build a buggy then modify a TJ if I was worried about the weigh enough to get an aluminum frame and body.

If you thought an aluminum roll cage was scary look up carbon fiber roll cages.
I have also heard of the Aluminum bodies, but not the frame. As for the carbon fiber roll bar... well, that is up for debate. If you are talking about the CF like the hoods that ricers put on their cars... I wouldn't trust that as a hood for my Jeep, it would flex so much that it would probably break the latch. That isn't real carbon fiber, and uses crappy resin. Now... if we are talking racing/aircraft grade CF that uses proper resins and full carbon weave material with a directional pattern (no fiberglass in there), then I would reconsider. That stuff is about 4 times stronger than steel in terms of tensile strength, and is VERY strong. You should have seen my uncle's Ducati after the wreck. The frame was so strong that the forks were bent back to the frame, and the front rim was sheared by the frame. My cousin was able to sell of the motor because it was protected.

Once again though, this all comes down to cost. The cost of a roll cage made of real carbon fiber would cost more than you could sell most Jeeps for. The weight savings wouldn't warrant the cost.
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Unread 01-19-2010, 07:04 PM   #233
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yup i'm an engineer...what are you getting at?

i stand by my previous statement - nothing wrong with a properly designed aluminum or even carbon fiber roll cage. both have already been proven in racing applications.... in fact, carbon fiber is stupid strong...just stupid stupid strong.

and cost is relative. some people will pay $4000 for a 6-piston brake system, but others will not pay $200 for EBC pads to make their vehicle stop at the local middle school crosswalk. similarly some people will buy an $800 car and put $8000 wheels on it....
lol, no... I wasn't knocking you for being an engineer. I was just double checking that. I agree with properly desgined stuff, as seen by my above post (I hate when I post at the same time as someone else).

I lol at the last comment since I see it daily here. There is a crappy mid '90s caprice wagon here in town that isn't worth the cost of the paint, rims, or even the window tint, but someone felt the need to put it on.
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Unread 01-19-2010, 07:21 PM   #234
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The aluminum skids seem to take the full 3,800 lbs ok, I haven't seen what the aluminum bumpers look like after hitting some trees, but if someone has a pic I wouldn't mind seeing that.
I've got a bumper if someone wants to run their Jeep into a tree and test it!

I do know that I dropped my Jeep on the bumper multiple times backing off (about 4') a waterfall that I was trying make. Blaine was amazed how nicely the bumper held up. Blaine, CVD and couple of other witnessed the teeth jarring drops and were simply amazed how hard a hit the aluminum bumpers can take. Most people don't understand that a well engineered product can withstand unbelieveable forces.
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Unread 01-19-2010, 07:27 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by Luckrider View Post
I have also heard of the Aluminum bodies, but not the frame. As for the carbon fiber roll bar... well, that is up for debate. If you are talking about the CF like the hoods that ricers put on their cars... I wouldn't trust that as a hood for my Jeep, it would flex so much that it would probably break the latch. That isn't real carbon fiber, and uses crappy resin. Now... if we are talking racing/aircraft grade CF that uses proper resins and full carbon weave material with a directional pattern (no fiberglass in there), then I would reconsider. That stuff is about 4 times stronger than steel in terms of tensile strength, and is VERY strong. You should have seen my uncle's Ducati after the wreck. The frame was so strong that the forks were bent back to the frame, and the front rim was sheared by the frame. My cousin was able to sell of the motor because it was protected.

Once again though, this all comes down to cost. The cost of a roll cage made of real carbon fiber would cost more than you could sell most Jeeps for. The weight savings wouldn't warrant the cost.
I agree, it's a cost vs. worth issue, some people run carbon fiber wheels on there crotch rockets, it runs them thousands of dollars but it's worth it for some people that want that edge. I'm not one of those people, but if I ever win a few million I'm sure I'll be making some carbon fiber related purchases.

Were getting a little, ok a lot off subject here, but when it comes down to it aluminum skids are a pretty good idea, and the price is the same as steel skids. When it comes down to it I like the AEV skid the most, great clearance and no body lift required. If AEV offered the same setup in aluminum I would buy it.

I'm not saying body lifts are bad, there safe, they give clearance, there just not for me.
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Unread 01-19-2010, 07:33 PM   #236
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lol, way to get back on topic. I think the aluminum makes the best compromise between cost and worth. I know someone who was going to buy CF skids for his GMC Jimmy (he had no brains). I laughed at him when He said that though. I told him that it wasn't real CF like his beloved Planes, and it would just crack on the first hit.

So Gerald, is there any more info on the TT? Have we decided on a final BL size, will it replace the mounts, or go on top? We are excited to see some of this stuff.
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Unread 01-19-2010, 07:55 PM   #237
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nothing wrong with a properly designed aluminum roll cage. look at that corvette frame you posted...thats a unibody car with an integrated aluminum roll cage. heck in racing applications, some roll cages are even carbon fiber.

that said, for off-road use i'd rather have a chromoly steel roll cage since chromoly steel will deform a lot more than aluminum before cracking.
I have some pretty neat research from my buddy that shows 4130 tube cages aren't really that desireable unless you can heat treat the whole structure after it's fabricated. It seems the HAZ cracks in an impact and you wind up with impaled occupants. This was all based around him finding an article from some sanctioning body that outlawed 4130 in cages. No promises, but I'll see if I can dig up the link he sent me.



Quote:
aluminum is much harder to work with from a manufacturing standpoint. welding Al properly requires much more expensive equipment than mild steel ($3000 TIG vs $500 MIG),
That appears correct on the surface, but when you get into high quality manufacturing, the 500 dollar MIG just won't cut it. At that point you're better off with a higher dollar multipurpose machine which does Mig, Tig and AL with a push pull spool gun. Spray arc transfer is a thing of beauty.


Quote:
and press braking it requires careful attention to angles (steel can bend 90 deg, aluminum can't).
Please don't tell that acute 130 angle at the top of our bumper that. I don't need any of them unfolding.

But in general, you are correct, aluminum does require you pay attention to a different set of criteria than steel. It is far more exacting to do correctly and is not as forgiving.


Quote:
However, steel is harder to drill - it work hardens...aluminum just melts.
If your steel is work hardening, you're doing something very wrong. But you know that already.
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Unread 01-19-2010, 08:11 PM   #238
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I have some pretty neat research from my buddy that shows 4130 tube cages aren't really that desireable unless you can heat treat the whole structure after it's fabricated. It seems the HAZ cracks in an impact and you wind up with impaled occupants. This was all based around him finding an article from some sanctioning body that outlawed 4130 in cages. No promises, but I'll see if I can dig up the link he sent me.
o0o tell me more.

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That appears correct on the surface, but when you get into high quality manufacturing, the 500 dollar MIG just won't cut it. At that point you're better off with a higher dollar multipurpose machine which does Mig, Tig and AL with a push pull spool gun. Spray arc transfer is a thing of beauty.
yea, definitely true. I know a few welders have gotten started on the Miller 220V MIG's for handrail and simple steel jobs...but upgrade quickly for production stuff. My buddy has been using a Lincoln 180 from Lowe's more than the trailer mounted Miller Trailblazer lately...cheaper to run for shop work

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If your steel is work hardening, you're doing something very wrong. But you know that already.
more coconut oil! more coconut oil!
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Unread 01-19-2010, 08:19 PM   #239
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more coconut oil! more coconut oil!



better make that less rpm! less rpm!
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Unread 01-19-2010, 08:28 PM   #240
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better make that less rpm! less rpm!
naw thats what carbide & ceramics are for
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