Rear end toed-in almost 1/4".

jefbob · 10-28-2009, 04:03 PM

Alright guys, I have been searching around the forums and finding a bunch of stuff on alignments, but nothing on rear end. I got a new set of tires and the shop called me when they had my Jeep on the alignment rack and said my rear wheels were toed-in almost 1/4" (.42 degrees total or .28 on the left and .14 on the right according to the printout they gave me) and there is no adjustments they could make. The dealership was no help either when I called them. From what I have read that is too much toe, where do I go from here? Do I have a bent axle? Or worse? 2006 Wrangler X that I bought used and it looked really clean like it had never been wheeled and appears to be bone stock.

Any help is appreciated...thanks,
Jeff

Zen · 10-28-2009, 04:20 PM

The alignment shops use wheel mounted sensors to check alignments. If you have a bent wheel it could show up as a Toe issue. Or the axle could be bent.

My FSM specs show 0.25* total toe-in for the rear.

**Imped** · 10-28-2009, 05:35 PM

The rear is not adjustable. But 1/4 difference from front to back? That's excessive, especially when the rear should almost be dead straight. I have a slightly tweaked rear axle with no issues and no uneven tire wear but it's nowhere near 1/4". Have them check again in terms of inches, not degrees.

jefbob · 10-28-2009, 08:20 PM

Thanks guys for the replies. I never thought about a bent wheel, maybe I will check out my wheels and make sure they look straight.

imped4now - They told me it was almost 1/4" and I know its not adjustable, that is why I am not sure what to do. I would hate to have to replace my axle and wasn't sure if this is a clear indication that it is in fact bent. The tire guy mentioned maybe getting the frame checked, but I don't want to put money into that (likely expensive?) if it isn't likely to be it. I never thought to ask them to check the inches. If I don't get any other suggestions, then I might take it back....or better yet, to another shop for a second opinion.

Boodyrider · 10-28-2009, 08:56 PM

Getting the FRAME checked? Shop is full of crap. Rear toe is not affected by the frame, its a solid axle vehicle. The ONLY thing that can affect toe is the axle itself and the wheels. (rear axles can be shifted compared to the front, aimed either left or right of centerline slightly, but usually due to control arms or bushings, not frame.)

Hell, most shops don't even DO a 4 wheel alignment on a solid axle rear that doesn't have factory alignment adjustment, just set toe and call it good.

How's it drive? If you haven't noticed wierd tire wear, or any driving issues, carry on, stop stressing.

jefbob · 10-28-2009, 09:08 PM

Boodyrider - Yeah, those were my exact thoughts about the frame too, but I am by no means an expert when it comes to cars, let alone the Jeep I have only had for a few months, so thats why I thought I would ask on here what people thought. I've been wrong before. But, since both sides supposedly have a positive toe, I assume the axle isn't shifted, or aimed, at all.

As far as how it drives, it seems fine to me. The set of tires that were on it didn't seem to have wierd wear, but I have no way of knowing they weren't thrown on there to prevent me from noticing that. I guess I can just monitor this set to see how they do.

Boodyrider · 10-28-2009, 09:12 PM

Unless you have serious wear issues, tires are cheaper than replacing the axle, even if it WERE bent (which I doubt, I imagine they measured poorly. For future reference... get a friend and a tape measure, set your toe and center your steering yourself, and call it aligned. Mine has NEVER been to a shop for an alignment, and I bought it wrecked, replaced the frame with a 4 cylinder frame, welded on my motor mounts, and changed axles, control arms, and steering components since I've owned it. Tires wear fine. Drives great, and I have a sum total of ZERO paid out on alignments.

**Imped** · 10-28-2009, 09:19 PM

Exactly. Jeeps aren't rocket science and don't require lasers to "align." You can do it yourself with a tape measure very accurately. And you don't have to be an "expert" to do this stuff. Solid axles are very simple. Take advantage of that.

**mudb8** · 10-28-2009, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zen

The alignment shops use wheel mounted sensors to check alignments. If you have a bent wheel it could show up as a Toe issue. Or the axle could be bent.

My FSM specs show 0.25* total toe-in for the rear.

when the wheels are bent, my rack sets off bell and whistles to tell me there is wheel wobble.

1/4" is normal to see on the rear..

rear toe is also, believe it or not, affected by pinion angle.... I've adjusted many while I could observe what was happening on the rack.

heres a couple pics of my meters while doing tj alignments and thrust/pinion adjustments..

**mudb8** · 10-28-2009, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by imped4now

Exactly. Jeeps aren't rocket science and don't require lasers to "align." You can do it yourself with a tape measure very accurately. And you don't have to be an "expert" to do this stuff. Solid axles are very simple. Take advantage of that.

I thought that for YEARS.... untill I started using lasers, what I can do now and what I used to do has no comparison in results..

yer right about one thing tho.. my 10 year old, who actually pays attention to details, can align a tj using the rack better than most "Experts" will send you out the door with.

**Imped** · 10-28-2009, 09:37 PM

Mud, we will continue to agree on many things and disagree on very few--this is one of them. I know your stand, you know mine. I respect the fact that you can perfectly align any vehicle but IMO, (for solid axle jeeps) that amount of perfection will never be realized in terms of results. So let's agree to disagree and not quote each other any longer when it comes to alignments. The OP can make up his own mind.

jefbob · 10-28-2009, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boodyrider

Unless you have serious wear issues, tires are cheaper than replacing the axle, even if it WERE bent (which I doubt, I imagine they measured poorly. For future reference... get a friend and a tape measure, set your toe and center your steering yourself, and call it aligned. Mine has NEVER been to a shop for an alignment, and I bought it wrecked, replaced the frame with a 4 cylinder frame, welded on my motor mounts, and changed axles, control arms, and steering components since I've owned it. Tires wear fine. Drives great, and I have a sum total of ZERO paid out on alignments.

Actually, after my last message, I got a friend on the phone, and after work tomorrow, that is exactly what I am going to do....get a friend to check the measurements. Just had to make sure he had nothing going on in the evening.

Quote:

Originally Posted by imped4now

Exactly. Jeeps aren't rocket science and don't require lasers to "align." You can do it yourself with a tape measure very accurately. And you don't have to be an "expert" to do this stuff. Solid axles are very simple. Take advantage of that.

But there is no way to adjust the rear end right? So how does the solid axle help me there? I am far from an expert, but I guess my main concern with the original post was whether I had to worry about my frame being messed up, or if it was possibly just a bent axle....or nothing at all. I just have never heard this before, so wasn't sure what I needed to get into.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mudb8

1/4" is normal to see on the rear..

rear toe is also, believe it or not, affected by pinion angle.... I've adjusted many while I could observe what was happening on the rack.

heres a couple pics of my meters while doing tj alignments and thrust/pinion adjustments..

So you are also saying that since its less than a 1/4" I shouldn't be worried about it and just go back to the tire shop and beatup the guy for getting me worried? (just kidding about beating him up, but you get the idea)

**Imped** · 10-28-2009, 10:17 PM

It could be either the axle or control arm/control arm mounts. By looking at your numbers, there is a .14 difference side to side so even if the control arms are not allowing the axle to sit straight, it looks like it may be tweaked. But it seems very uncommon for BOTH issues to be present unless the jeep was beaten like crazy or in an accident. Take a very close inspection at the frame and control arm mounts. If you can't tell, have someone else that knows what they're looking for take a look at it. If you can, get it to mudb8....he'll let you know exactly what's up.

**glockster** · 10-28-2009, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by imped4now

Exactly. Jeeps aren't rocket science and don't require lasers to "align." You can do it yourself with a tape measure very accurately. And you don't have to be an "expert" to do this stuff. Solid axles are very simple. Take advantage of that.

How do you check caster in the garage?

**Imped** · 10-28-2009, 10:31 PM

Good question. An assortment of straight edges and an angle finder. It's accurate enough. But as you know, caster isn't terribly picky, as long as you're within a degree. With the HP D30, I'm lucky enough to have close to a perfect amount of caster when my pinion angle is dead on.